What if these Christian beliefs are not true?

[1213]

1) Jesus is God
...

How can you say so when Jesus himself says there is only one true God who is greater than him?

How can you believe, who receive glory from one another, and you don't seek the glory that comes from the only God?
John 5:44
the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

 

[Trailblazer]

The Bible gives you the answer:

"And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins." (1 Corinthians 15:17)

Christian belief states that Christ died for our sins. Please tell me how you think Christ being resurrected has anything to do with our sins.

Below are some answers I found on the internet.

What is the meaning of 1 Corinthians 15 17?

It shows the purpose of His death was to deal with our sins. If He did not rise, we are still in our sins. The resurrection proves Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient to satisfy God and atone for sins. God raised Jesus to show He accepted His sacrifice. The resurrection guarantees believers will also be resurrected.
The Meaning of the Resurrection: A sermon on 1 Corinthians 15:17

It says: It shows the purpose of His death was to deal with our sins.
That is true.

It says: if Jesus did not rise we are we still in our sins.
No, if Jesus did not die we would still be in our sins because His death was a sacrifice for our sins.
If He rose from the dead He did not die so so we would still be in our sins.
Do Christians even see how illogical of their beliefs are?

It says: The resurrection guarantees believers will also be resurrected.
Why does the resurrection guarantee believers will also be resurrected? Where does the Bible say that? .
This is nothing but Christian dogma.

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Why is the resurrection important according to 1 Corinthians 15-17-1

In 1 Corinthians 15:17, Paul writes that if there's no resurrection from the dead, we are still dead to our sins. Jesus is the spotless lamb of God, who has the power to remove our sin. His work on the cross was incomplete until he rose from the dead.Apr 4, 2020
The Importance Of The Resurrection - CornerstoneSF

It says: His work on the cross was incomplete until he rose from the dead;.
Why was His work on the cross incomplete until he rose from the dead? There is no logical connection nor does the Bible say that.
This is nothing but Christian dogma.

Christians would still wait - just as they have been waiting for the last 2000 years. In the meantime some Churches believe Jesus returns physically (in the form of bread and wine) every day.

I said: Many Christians will continue to wait for Jesus to return as long as they 'believe' that Jesus will return someday, but what if all Christians realized that Jesus is never going to return to earth?

If all Christians realized that Jesus is never going to return to earth why would they continue to wait for Jesus to return to earth?

 

[Trailblazer]

How can you say so when Jesus himself says there is only one true God who is greater than him?

How can you believe, who receive glory from one another, and you don't seek the glory that comes from the only God?
John 5:44
the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

It is not me who says that Jesus is God. I do not believe that Jesus is God.
Not only is that patently illogical, it is unsupported by the Bible. It is nothing short of a man-made Christian doctrine.

 

[Link]

"And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins." (1 Corinthians 15:17)

This is because he is the Messiah. If he was killed, it would make his claims to be the Messiah false.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is because he is the Messiah. If he was killed, it would make his claims to be the Messiah false.

Why would it make his claims to be the Messiah false if he was killed?

 

[PearlSeeker]

If He rose from the dead He did not die so so we would still be in our sins.
Do Christians even see how illogical of their beliefs are?

If he rose from the dead it means he died before that.

Why was His work on the cross incomplete until he rose from the dead? There is no logical connection nor does the Bible say that.
This is nothing but Christian dogma.

The Bible says so.

Luke 18​

31 And taking the twelve, he said to them, "See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written about the Son of Man by the prophets will be accomplished.​

32 For he will be delivered over to the Gentiles and will be mocked and shamefully treated and spit upon.​

33 And after flogging him, they will kill him, and on the third day he will rise."​

So it was written and it all had to be fulfilled.

Acts 10​

40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,​

41 not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.​

42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.​

43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.​

Resurrection confirms that his sacrifice was successful and faith is built on the testimony of the apostles and prophets. Who would believe in a dead Messiah?

but what if all Christians realized that Jesus is never going to return to earth?

What would make them realise this? This is impossible because the time of return is not fixed. No deadline to catch.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Any human would die from fire engulfed, but Ibrahim (a) was saved from that. It's not far fetch to see God did similar for Jesus (a).

It is not so.
Imam Hussein Head was cut off.
before that, Ali's head was destroyed by Sword.
Before that, Muhammad died of poison.
Later, every Imam died of poisoning or something.

As Muhammad said, I am a human like you. Jesus, and Abraham were also just human.

Are you familiar with how to recognize Mutishabihat from Muhkamaat?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why would it make his claims to be the Messiah false if he was killed?

Because people like @Link believe a true Prophet could not be killed.
They don't think, what matters are their teachings.
Yet, people like @Link apparently are Shia, so, they believe Imam Hussein Head was cut off. They have an inconsistent theology.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because people like @Link believe a true Prophet could not be killed.

Any living breathing human can be killed. Only God cannot be killed.
But it is only the body that is killed, not the person, since the person is a soul.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Any living breathing human can be killed. Only God cannot be killed.
But it is only the body that is killed, not the person, since the person is a soul.

Yap, but the Quran says, Abraham thrown in fire, and instead of burning Him, it turned to a Garden.
Although Abraham eventually died though. So, i don't know why He didn't die in the fire, when His body was an ordinary human body.

 

[LeftyLen]

Yes.

The Roman trinity is an amalgamation of Greek philosophy, roman religion and some scripture, voted on by the roman Bishop

 

[Trailblazer]

If he rose from the dead it means he died before that.

I guess you are missing my point. If Jesus was only dead for three days how was that a sacrifice for our sins?

The Bible says so.

Luke 18​

31 And taking the twelve, he said to them, "See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written about the Son of Man by the prophets will be accomplished.​

32 For he will be delivered over to the Gentiles and will be mocked and shamefully treated and spit upon.​

33 And after flogging him, they will kill him, and on the third day he will rise."​

So it was written and it all had to be fulfilled.

Acts 10​

40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,​

41 not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.​

42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.​

43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.​

Okay, the Bible says the resurrection had to take place.

Resurrection confirms that his sacrifice was successful and faith is built on the testimony of the apostles and prophets.

I'm sorry but it is not a sacrifice to be dead for three days and then come back to life again and be doted upon by everyone who saw Him.

Who would believe in a dead Messiah?

I believe that Jesus was a Messiah and that He died and ascended to heaven forthwith.
Jesus is not dead, He is just occupying a spiritual body rather than a physical body, as the Bible says.

1 Corinthians 15
New Living Translation

The Resurrection Body

35 But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?”
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

What would make them realise this? This is impossible because the time of return is not fixed. No deadline to catch.

I did not say that Christians are going to realize that Jesus is not coming back. I said this was hypothetical.
The only time they will realize that is after they die and see Jesus in heaven and Jesus tells them face to face that He was never planning to come back to earth.

 

[Trailblazer]

Quran says

Since you are familiar with the Qur'an and I am not, can you explain why the Baha'i Faith considers the Quran to be true, when it contains so many false verses? You can only make so many verses symbolic. It is the same with the Bible. If the Baha'i Faith is true all of the Bible cannot be true.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Since you are familiar with the Qur'an and I am not, can you explain why the Baha'i Faith considers the Quran to be true, when it contains so many false verses? You can only make so many verses symbolic. It is the same with the Bible. If the Baha'i Faith is true all of the Bible cannot be true.

The Quran and Bible contain so much symbols and allusions.
It is meant to cause people who don't use their brain, get mislead by them, and go to the bottomless pit. Apparently God needs to burn them, and make fire with them. Then with the fire, He tests people like you and I.
I hope that make sense

 

[Trailblazer]

The Quran and Bible contain so much symbols and allusions.
It is meant to cause people who don't use their brain, get mislead by them, and go to the bottomless pit. Apparently God needs to burn them, and make fire with them. Then with the fire, He tests people like you and I.
I hope that make sense

Hmmmmm... It is a test for them but it is not a test for me since I disregard scriptures that are full of symbols and allusions...
Life is too short to waste time trying to figure out what they mean or trying to help others do so since they will cling to their own interpretations anyway.

 

[LeftyLen]

I guess you are missing my point. If Jesus was only dead for three days how was that a sacrifice for our sins?

Okay, the Bible says the resurrection had to take place.

I'm sorry but it is not a sacrifice to be dead for three days and then come back to life again and be doted upon by everyone who saw Him.

I believe that Jesus was a Messiah and that He died and ascended to heaven forthwith.
Jesus is not dead, He is just occupying a spiritual body rather than a physical body, as the Bible says.

1 Corinthians 15
New Living Translation

The Resurrection Body

35 But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?”
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

I did not say that Christians are going to realize that Jesus is not coming back. I said this was hypothetical.
The only time they will realize that is after they die and see Jesus in heaven and Jesus tells them face to face that He was never planning to come back to earth.

Reading that is why i will stick with the KJV

 

[PearlSeeker]

This is because he is the Messiah. If he was killed, it would make his claims to be the Messiah false.

Do you mean: if he was killed and not raised from the dead...?

 

[Trailblazer]

Reading that is why i will stick with the KJV

What is wrong with the NLT?
The important verses say essentially the same things.

1 Corinthians 15
King James Version

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

 

[PearlSeeker]

I'm sorry but it is not a sacrifice to be dead for three days and then come back to life again and be doted upon by everyone who saw Him.

Three, ten or hundred days dead, what difference does it make? It wouldn't hurt an iota more if he was longer dead. He was innocent, tortured, killed and dead. Sacrifice enough.

I believe that Jesus was a Messiah and that He died and ascended to heaven forthwith.

It's not a problem that he died. Some events that are required for the Messiah didn't occur in his lifetime or right after his lifetime.

Jewish eschatology holds that the coming of the Messiah will be associated with a specific series of events that have not yet occurred, including the return of Jews to their homeland and the rebuilding of the Temple, a Messianic Age of peace[45] and understanding during which "the knowledge of God" fills the earth."[46] And since Jews believe that none of these events occurred during the lifetime of Jesus (nor have they occurred afterwards), he is not the Messiah for them. (Wiki)​

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Resurrection and promise of returning prolonged the time available to fulfill these things.

The only time they will realize that is after they die and see Jesus in heaven and Jesus tells them face to face that He was never planning to come back to earth.

OK. But that wouldn't change Christian religion here in this earthly life.

 

[Trailblazer]

Three, ten or hundred days dead, what difference does it make? It wouldn't hurt an iota more if he was longer dead. He was innocent, tortured, killed and dead. Sacrifice enough.

Lots of innocent people were tortured, killed and dead, and they remained dead, so if Jesus had not remained dead that would not constitute a sacrifice in my eyes, but since I believe that He remained dead it was a sacrifice in my eyes.

It's not a problem that he died. Some events that are required for the Messiah didn't occur in his lifetime or right after his lifetime.

Jewish eschatology holds that the coming of the Messiah will be associated with a specific series of events that have not yet occurred, including the return of Jews to their homeland and the rebuilding of the Temple, a Messianic Age of peace[45] and understanding during which "the knowledge of God" fills the earth."[46] And since Jews believe that none of these events occurred during the lifetime of Jesus (nor have they occurred afterwards), he is not the Messiah for them. (Wiki)​

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Resurrection and promise of returning prolonged the time available to fulfill these things.

That is true, it has bought the Christians some time, but a belief about returning is not going to make Jesus return.

OK. But that wouldn't change Christian religion here in this earthly life.

No, it wouldn't. Christianity will most likely go on like it is for a very long time, waiting and hoping for a Jesus who is never going to return...
That is worse than me waiting and hoping for a new husband I will never have, but at least I am only one person and I am not hurting anyone else.