Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Jesus never said that he would return to earth at the end times -- never, ever.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
What if these Christian beliefs are not true?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
But per you, God means Angels are humans, and Jinn are humans, and day of judgment is your Prophet coming, how seriously can I take your interpretation of the Bible?
To me the Gospels are clear that he will return. But I don't understand the Bahai framework of what language says, because, you guys deny clearest words and avoid clear meanings all the time.
It's hard to take what you guys say about anything seriously.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
This has nothing to do with what Baha'is believe.
Where does Jesus say that he is going to return?
I have been discussing this with Christians on forums for over 10 years and no Christian has ever been able to provide one verse where Jesus says he will return.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Even though i said this Hadith many times before, i quote it again for you, hopefully you notice:
Bihar al-Anwar, volume 53, page 25 and 26 ):
قال الصادق علیه السلام : أحسنت يامفضل فمن اين قلت برجعتنا؟ ومقصرة شيعتنا تقول : معنى الرجعة أن يرد الله إلينا ملك الدنيا وأن يجعله للمهدي. ويحهم متى سلبنا الملك حتى يرد علينا؟ قال المفضل : لا والله وما سلبتموه ولا تسلبونه لانه ملك النبوة والرسالة والوصية والامامة
Imam Sadiq (AS) said: "Well done, O Mufaddal! How would you say, our Return, will be? Some of our deficient Shia say: the meaning of Raj'a is that Allah will return the Rule of the world to us by appointing the Mahdi as Ruler.
Woe to them! When were we deprived of the Rulling that it should be returned to us?" Mufaddal said: "By God, you have never been deprived of it, nor will you be, because Your Rolling is the kingdom of Prophethood, Messengership, Trusteeship, and Imamate."
According to the Hadith, all Shia Imams were Rulers, and had a Kingdom, even though, they it was not worldly.
Jesus also said, as recorded in the Bible, "My ruling is not of this world"
It is about, Conquering the world, through speard of their Religion. That is, their teachings will spread East and West of the world. From all places, there will be followers, who are devoted, and worship them. Like how, Shias lick the dust of Karbala. This is the meaning of Ruling. Not that which Sid Ali, and Hassan Nasrallah told you.
It does. Because Quran says Mohammad and Nuh are not Angels, yet your Prophet says they are, and you follow your Prophet and play games with the words of the Quran. I think Jesus is clear he will return. I have a disinterest in getting into technical debate over it for similar reasons I think you guys are dishonest with speech of Quran, you will do same with what Jesus (a) says about his return. Moreover I think Messiah is not something all Prophets are, but something unique to Jesus. Particularly, it's a promise regarding him.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
This has nothing to do with how the Baha'is interpret the Qur'an.
The NT is the book that represents what Jesus said. Jesus does not say ANYTHING about his return, not anything, so there is no promise to return.
All we have are verses where Jesus says he was no more in this world and the world would see him no more.
I consider the return of the same man Jesus to be a false Christian doctrine based upon a misinterpretation of NT verses.
The alleged return of Christ was never slated to be Jesus, it was always slated to be another man who had the same Christ spirit.
But you are free to wait for Jesus to return, along with the Christians.
It does, because you guys deny clear meanings in the Quran so I can't take seriously what you say about the Gospels either. I've read the Gospels and to me it's clear Jesus (a) says he will return.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Leave the Baha'is out of this. The Gospels speak for themselves.
All Muslims are reading the same Qur'an yet all Muslims do not believe that Jesus is going to return, so whats up?
Are these Muslims denying the clear meanings in the Qur'an? They would say the same thing about you.
True Islam - Second Coming of Jesus
True Islam is derived from the Quran and not from the traditions or cultures of Muslim people
www.quran-islam.org
Show me one verse in the Gospels where Jesus says that he is going to return.
The Quran is clear that Jesus (a) is returning and you have to play games with it to deny the clear meaning.
Most Quranist on the internet are linked to western institutions and western intelligence pay roles.
Quranists are like Mauwiya and his men who put Quran on spears. Imam Ali (a) told his followers and army just to go straight and that's it's a trick. But they didn't follow his orders and he was the talking Quran.
Most Muslims (Sunni) don't consider Quranist Muslims, and I agree with them. They have a spirit trying to escape submitting to God and follow their caprice over the interpretation of the Messenger.
They want to voice their voice over God and his Messenger, may God curse them in hell forever.
They also tend to not say "And Mohammad is his Messenger" in Salah just showing how far they voice their egos and belittle the role of the Messenger.
I can't even show a Bahai that day of judgment is not their Prophet and that Mohammad (s) is not the Angel with the mental loops you go through. I'm less familiar with the Gospels, but from what I read, it's clear Jesus (a) says he will return. Not interested in the mental gymnastics over it because I don't have the whole Gospels almost memorized like how Quran clicks for me. I can argue from Quran and go at it from the stand point because I have the Quranic arsenal.
I've read the Gospels only a couple times.
John 5:28-29 New King James Version
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
These verses speak of a future moment when "all who are in the graves" will hear the voice of Christ and be resurrected:
1. Future Time: The phrase "the hour is coming" suggests an eschatological event that has not yet occurred, indicating an expectation of a future occurrence.
2. Authority of Jesus: The text states that all will hear "His voice," which is the agent of resurrection. This demonstrates Jesus' authority over life and death, implying His direct presence to exercise that authority.
3. Resurrection to Life and Condemnation: The distinction between resurrection to life and condemnation implies a final judgment. Jesus, as the judge, would be present to carry out this judgment, aligning with the idea of His return as part of establishing a final kingdom.
4. Implied Second Coming: Although the text does not explicitly mention a "second coming," the promise of a future where Jesus uses His voice to resurrect and judge all suggests His active presence in this final event. This implies a return to the world of the living to complete His mission.
Therefore, by analyzing the language and the role of Jesus in these verses, we can deduce a logical expectation of His return to fulfill this eschatological role.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Go ahead. Just bear in mind that other Muslims have argued it from the Qur'an and they came to different conclusions.
Which is why Yazid was able to kill Imam Hussain (a), as Imam Hussain (a) said way before that, that the enemies were ruling the Muslims only because people stuck to ambiguities when there existed clear proofs.
Muslims are practically unanimous on Jesus (a) return. The hadiths have reached Tawatur about it in Sunni sources, and there tons of hadiths in Shiite sources about it too.
Quranists are not considered Muslims in my view, so I don't care what they say.
Every Muslim wanting to know what Quran says about Jesus (a) sees his return in clear terms. Quranist being one of the worst type of disbelievers much like Khawarij were one of the worst of type of disbelievers, will say anything and we don't care what they say just as they don't care what Mohammad (s) said.
cataway
Well-Known Member
jesus does not return as a man ,he is spirit and will always be spirit .its more correct to understand his attention will be directed to the earth as king. his return would mean he has taken over ,something you may not like.
there is going to be a separating ,described as what a shepherd that would send goats one way sheep another . to stand against the king jesus ,even as you do now , is not wise .
there is going to be a separating ,described as what a shepherd that would send goats one way sheep another . to stand against the king jesus ,even as you do now , is not wise .
My take on it, my views and beliefs from a Hindu pov and former Christian:
- No more or less than any one of us: I am seated in the heart of all living entities. I am the beginning, middle, and end of all beings. BG 10.20
- The only way to God for the people he was speaking to, the only way for his audience, the only way for those who believe he is the only way. He was teaching those who lost their way to God. Remember, "the healthy have no need of a physician".
- No, I think his death and resurrection were metaphorical. He himself was on the path to enlightenment. I believe his death and resurrection were metaphors for his "old self" being replaced by his fully enlightened self.
- I'm iffy about that but leaning towards no. I don't believe in the "returning to judge the living and the dead". I don't believe he has that authority or power, especially if he is no more fully God than I am.
Obi-Wan : ... So, what I told you was true... from a certain point of view.
Luke Skywalker : A certain point of view?
Obi-Wan : Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.
McBell
Unbound
Um...
When was the Koran added to the Gospels of Jesus?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is correct. The body of Jesus will not return. It was the spirit of Jesus that was slated by God to return.
Jesus never claimed to be a king, he disclaimed it.
Jesus never said his attention will be directed to the earth as king.
None of this is biblical, it is only a church doctrine.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
There is already a separating of the sheep and the goats, and it has been taking place since the Christ spirit returned in the person of Baha'u'llah.
To stand against the man who was the return of Christ even as you do now, is not wise.
The text clearly states that "the hour is coming," which implies a future event, not merely a present spiritual transformation, when all who are in the graves will hear the voice of Jesus. Why, then, had that moment not yet arrived when Jesus spoke these words?
cataway
Well-Known Member
you likely confuse ''world of mankind'' with ''earth'' ,they are two different things.
as it stands Jesus is king , sets as a king . when he stands ,you may want to hope you were already dead. it could get really ugly. not everyone saying lord lord ,we helped you ,will have his favor.
as for returning in the person of Baha'u'llah, someone pulled the wool over your eyes.
John 12:12-15 King James Version
On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. And Jesus, when he had found a young ***, sat thereon; as it is written, Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ***'s colt.
We have three words in these verses: Jerusalem, King of Israel, and Jesus affirming: thy King cometh.