PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
The waiting part wouldn't be so bad as the realisation after death - that their hope was just a delusion.
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What if these Christian beliefs are not true?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
The waiting part wouldn't be so bad as the realisation after death - that their hope was just a delusion.
Regiomontanus
Eastern Orthodox
Hello. I hope you are well.
Obviously (from tradition and scripture) your assumptions are false, hence your theological conclusions are also false.
Cheers
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Sorry, I do not know what you mean.
Those were not my assumptions or my theological conclusions. The list I posted (1-4) are beliefs that are central to Christianity.
Are you saying that those beliefs are not central to Christianity?
Ok, sorry, then I misunderstood your point.
Because Messiah by definition would rule the world and establish world peace and justice.
This is not it. Messiah by definition would rule the end times. The Quran does not call any other Prophet a messiah.
McBell
Unbound
Tis is an odd way to declare there has never been a messiah...
Matthew 10:34 King James Version
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Jesus)
Revelation 6:4 King James Version
And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
The challenge of understanding a white horse guided by a victorious figure transforming into red is immense for those considered pseudo-Christians, let alone comprehending the Messiah of the Hebrew Bible.
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Jesus)
Revelation 6:4 King James Version
And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
The challenge of understanding a white horse guided by a victorious figure transforming into red is immense for those considered pseudo-Christians, let alone comprehending the Messiah of the Hebrew Bible.
How so? If he died, it would be the case. But since he can come back - it cannot be denied he is the Messiah on those grounds. Also Enoch is a foreshadow of souls being kept alive for end time. It's not only Elijah that comes back but so will Enoch. What's the purpose of showing Enoch to be alive? And Elijah being alive? There surely is an important day they been saved for.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
By whose definition?
According to the OT the Messiah will establish world peace and justice but it says nothing about him ruling the world.
Even if Jesus had not died on the cross he would have died a natural death, so he could never have been the Messiah who fulfills the OT prophecies to establish peace and justice.
McBell
Unbound
You said "Messiah by definition would rule the world and establish world peace and justice"
Since there has not been world peace or justice, there can not have been, by definition, a messiah...
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yeah, especially because there is no reason to believe that the messiah would rule the world and establish world peace and justice.
By what was deemed a Messiah by traditions and scripture at that time. If Messiah was not that special position, then, Quran would have not gave the title uniquely to Isa (a). In generic terms, it just means anointed by God as a king or authority, but all Prophets are that. Isa (a) is claimed to be uniquely this, and so we can see it's a station that other Prophets don't share.
Just like Imams are all Qaims and Mahdis per hadiths, but then there is "the Mahdi" "the Qaim", it's the same with the Messiah.
Yes, the Messiah work has not been done. The Mahdi is yet to complete his mission as well.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
By @Link s definition there has never been a messiah, but that does not mean there has never been a messiah.
No scriptures say that the messiah will rule the world and establish world peace and justice himself. The OT says that there will be peace and justice but it does not say that the messiah will be the one to establish peace and justice. These are prophecies about what will happen during the messianic age, an age which was ushered in by the messiah. The messiah did judge among nations.
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Isaiah 2:4 KJV - Bible.com
What does it mean by himself? Of course, no one does it by himself. That would make the whole call to others to help meaningless. The greatest factor to justice being establish and main catalyst is the Imam Mahdi (a). But his cause is linked to the twelve predecessors including Mohammad (s).
The Mahdi (a) right now works through believers to establish justice. Secret meetings, secret plans. When the smoke clears and justice is established, we will know how big of role he played during occultation and the rising will be obvious.
Jesus (a) will be a judge and ruler under Imam Mahdi (a) at the end times as the many hadiths show. In fact, he will be second in command and the wazir of Imam Mahdi (a).
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Jesus is not going to come back to this earth to do anything as the NT scriptures show.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Jesus never claimed to be a king, and Jesus never said He was coming back to earth to judge and rule.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
These two verses in John 18 completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to come back to this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”
That just means he is no more of this world for now. You see it as forever. But he didn't say that. I would agree with you we would assume that it means forever unless clarification is given elsewhere. And else where it shows he ascends to heaven and will come back.
The purpose is to show the praised one (Mohammad) to come and Elijah (a) will hold the position of light and holy spirit till Mohammad (s) who is also the holy spirit.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The verses do not say 'for now.' No more means no more.
No more means no further, never again.
no more
nothing further.
"there was no more to be said about it"
no further.
"you must have some soup, but no more wine"
exist no longer.
"the patch of ground was overgrown and the hut was no more"
never again.
"mention his name no more to me"
neither.
"I had no complaints and no more did Tom"
Oxford Languages and Google - English | Oxford Languages
Google’s English dictionary is provided by Oxford Languages. Oxford Languages is the world’s leading dictionary publisher, with over 150 years of experience creating and delivering authoritative dictionaries globally in more than 50 languages.
languages.oup.com
Yes, but languages other then English are very much contextual. They don't repeat and add stuff if context else where gives that meaning. Since he emphasized he will ascend to heaven and return to earth at the end times, it's understood "for a period of time" implicitly.