What if we accepted each other's religion?

[loverofhumanity]

LOL! Except for those darn religions you don't accept as having messengers from God!

You obviously DON'T accept all truth.

You folks have very plainly said that ALL your ACCEPTED religions have the same CORE BELIEFS, and things they say that don't match what you think, are add-ons to the teachings of their Messengers.

*

We weigh everything in the balance of Baha'u'llah's Writings. His Words are the Balance in which all truth is weighed and tested as to its authenticity.

We refer all things to Him and His Writings.

"“Say: This is the infallible Balance which the Hand of God is holding, in which all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth are weighed, and their fate determined,”

Excerpt From: Bahá’u’lláh. “Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah

 

[Ingledsva]

Taken in general, women today have a stronger sense of religion than men. The woman's intuition is more correct; she is more receptive and her intelligence is quicker. The day is coming when woman will claim her superiority to man. Abdul-Baha

Obviously this is talking about only spirituality.

"Upon another occasion ‘Abdu’l-Bahá said to a group of friends around him: “Taken in general, women today have a stronger sense of religion than men. The woman’s intuition is more correct; she is more receptive and her intelligence is quicker. The day is coming when woman will claim her superiority to man.
“Woman has everywhere been commended for her faithfulness. After the Lord Christ suffered, the disciples wept, and gave way to their grief. They thought that their hopes were shattered, and that the Cause was utterly lost, till Mary Magdalene came to them and strengthened them saying: ‘Do you mourn the body of Our Lord or His Spirit? If you mourn His Spirit, you are mistaken, for Jesus lives! His Spirit will never leave us!’ Thus through her wisdom and encouragement the Cause of Christ was upheld for all the days to come. Her intuition enabled her to grasp the spiritual fact.”
‘Abdu’l-Bahá then added: “But in the sight of God sex makes no difference. He or she is greatest who is nearest to God.”

By My Life! The names of handmaidens who are devoted to God are written and set down by the Pen of the Most High in the Crimson Book. They excel over men in the sight of God. Baha'u'llah

Same thing - in Spirituality only.

If there is not money enough in a family to educate both the girl and the boy the money must be dedicated to the girl’s education, for she is the potential mother. Abdul-Baha

This gives the reason, - education is important, - and compulsory, - and women are the first teachers of children. It has nothing to do with equality.

"Education holds an important place in the new order of things. The education of each child is compulsory. If there is not money enough in a family to educate both the girl and the boy the money must be dedicated to the girl's education, for she is the potential mother. If there are no parents the community must educate the child. In addition to this widespread education each child must be taught a profession, art, or trade, so that every member of the community will be enabled to earn his own livelihood."

It's clear to an unbiased observer that women are exalted in the Bahai Faith. We understand that there is a good reason why they cannot serve on the Universal House of Justice which will become very obvious in the future.

It is clear to those of us that are truly unbiased, - that Baha'i are trying to raise up people, while still holding onto MALE Power, in society and religion.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

We weigh everything in the balance of Baha'u'llah's Writings. His Words are the Balance in which all truth is weighed and tested as to its authenticity.

We refer all things to Him and His Writings.

"“Say: This is the infallible Balance which the Hand of God is holding, in which all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth are weighed, and their fate determined,”

Excerpt From: Bahá’u’lláh. “Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah

And that is the problem. As with ALL patriarchal religions, - you think you have the right to decide what is God given - or not - in other religions. And proclaim YOUR new Messenger is the one they need to follow.

*

 

[loverofhumanity]

And that is the problem. As with ALL patriarchal religions, - you think you have the right to decide what is God given - or not - in other religions. And proclaim YOUR new Messenger is the one they need to follow.

*

It's not me saying that. Doesn't the prophesied Maitreya or Christ returned have a say anymore in Their Faith? That's very odd. Don't They have the right to make these calls? Aren't Buddhists supposed to turn to Maitreya and Christians Christ when He returns? It's their scriptures that say that. It's very odd that you seem to be saying they should reject the Promised One foretold in their own Holy Books?? It's not our new Messenger it's 'their' Promised One.

 

[Ingledsva]

If we search, according to our efforts we will be rewarded If we don't search we get nothing. That is Karma at work.

As I said - I've read these writings, along with those of quite a few other religions.

Religious Writings are just that - writings.

They do not by their words, - actually prove anything.

*

 

[loverofhumanity]

As I said - I've read these writings, along with those of quite a few other religions.

Religious Writings are just that - writings.

They do not by their words, - actually prove anything.

*

The Words are creative.

"The world is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah

If no technology came about or world communications how would this statement have made Baha'u'llah look? But the sciences obeyed these Words and now the world is one country.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Obviously this is talking about only spirituality.

"Upon another occasion ‘Abdu’l-Bahá said to a group of friends around him: “Taken in general, women today have a stronger sense of religion than men. The woman’s intuition is more correct; she is more receptive and her intelligence is quicker. The day is coming when woman will claim her superiority to man.
“Woman has everywhere been commended for her faithfulness. After the Lord Christ suffered, the disciples wept, and gave way to their grief. They thought that their hopes were shattered, and that the Cause was utterly lost, till Mary Magdalene came to them and strengthened them saying: ‘Do you mourn the body of Our Lord or His Spirit? If you mourn His Spirit, you are mistaken, for Jesus lives! His Spirit will never leave us!’ Thus through her wisdom and encouragement the Cause of Christ was upheld for all the days to come. Her intuition enabled her to grasp the spiritual fact.”
‘Abdu’l-Bahá then added: “But in the sight of God sex makes no difference. He or she is greatest who is nearest to God.”



Same thing - in Spirituality only.



This gives the reason, - education is important, - and compulsory, - and women are the first teachers of children. It has nothing to do with equality.

"Education holds an important place in the new order of things. The education of each child is compulsory. If there is not money enough in a family to educate both the girl and the boy the money must be dedicated to the girl's education, for she is the potential mother. If there are no parents the community must educate the child. In addition to this widespread education each child must be taught a profession, art, or trade, so that every member of the community will be enabled to earn his own livelihood."



It is clear to those of us that are truly unbiased, - that Baha'i are trying to raise up people, while still holding onto MALE Power, in society and religion.

*

When it becomes clear why women can't serve on the Universal House of Justice then we can give a proper answer but at present none of us know. But the Baha'i Writings are very supporting of women and are not sexist.

 

[LuisDantas]

It's not me saying that.

It seems that it is Bahá’u’lláh instead, right?

I would have more respect for it if it were you who said it, for there is no significant religious wisdom or achievement in quoting people and scriptures.

Learning from others and making the teachings our own is much more advisable. Personal responsibility of belief is a very high priority for healthy religious practice, IMO.

Doesn't the prophesied Maitreya or Christ returned have a say anymore in Their Faith?

Not particularly so. A prophet is only as good as his or her teachings, after all.

In any case, you can't expect others to presume that Bahá’u’lláh is Maitreya, the Mahdi, the Christian understanding of Immanuel or anyone else of religious significance just because it would nicely fit into Bahai expectations.

I happen to agree with the common Jewish saying on this matter: it is not worth stopping planting a tree just because someone has announced the coming of yet another annointed-one-to-be. If someone has religious wisdom, that wisdom will be its own advocate.

That's very odd. Don't They have the right to make these calls?

There are a lot of calls most people can make, of course. Not all of those will be convincing, reasonable or worthwhile.

Aren't Buddhists supposed to turn to Maitreya (...) when He returns?

Not really, we are not. We were taught be be our own lamps and our own shelters, after all.

Of course, there is also the matter of deciding whether anyone is or will eventually be Maitreya - or even whether there will ever be a literal Maitreya. Admittedly it is not quite as hottly contested a claim as some others, but there is already some competition for that title - not that it is altogether a very important matter to establish, mind you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya#Maitreya_claimants

Amusingly enough, that specific list does not currently include Bahá’u’lláh.

It's their scriptures that say that.

Not really, but even if they did... so what?

Religious people should use their own discernment in deciding whether, how, to which extent and in which form to validate, adapt and express their scriptures (or any other texts, for that matter).

Scripture is just a religious tool - and a very minor tool at that. It must submit to the religious person, not the other way around.

It's very odd that you seem to be saying they should reject the Promised One foretold in their own Holy Books??

That you say so shows how reliant on scripture and prophecy you are.

How properly can the Bahai Faith complement, follow up on or even simply understand any other religion if it is subject to such powerful self-inflicted flaws and limitations as to rely on scripture and prophecy?

 

[loverofhumanity]

It seems that it is Bahá’u’lláh instead, right?

I would have more respect for it if it were you who said it, for there is no significant religious wisdom or achievement in quoting people and scriptures.

Learning from others and making the teachings our own is much more advisable. Personal responsibility of belief is a very high priority for healthy religious practice, IMO.




Not particularly so. A prophet is only as good as his or her teachings, after all.

In any case, you can't expect others to presume that Bahá’u’lláh is Maitreya, the Mahdi, the Christian understanding of Immanuel or anyone else of religious significance just because it would nicely fit into Bahai expectations.

I happen to agree with the common Jewish saying on this matter: it is not worth stopping planting a tree just because someone has announced the coming of yet another annointed-one-to-be. If someone has religious wisdom, that wisdom will be its own advocate.



There are a lot of calls most people can make, of course. Not all of those will be convincing, reasonable or worthwhile.



Not really, we are not. We were taught be be our own lamps and our own shelters, after all.

Of course, there is also the matter of deciding whether anyone is or will eventually be Maitreya - or even whether there will ever be a literal Maitreya. Admittedly it is not quite as hottly contested a claim as some others, but there is already some competition for that title - not that it is altogether a very important matter to establish, mind you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya#Maitreya_claimants

Amusingly enough, that specific list does not currently include Bahá’u’lláh.




Not really, but even if they did... so what?

Religious people should use their own discernment in deciding whether, how, to which extent and in which form to validate, adapt and express their scriptures (or any other texts, for that matter).

Scripture is just a religious tool - and a very minor tool at that. It must submit to the religious person, not the other way around.




That you say so shows how reliant on scripture and prophecy you are.

How properly can the Bahai Faith complement, follow up on or even simply understand any other religion if it is subject to such powerful self-inflicted flaws and limitations as to rely on scripture and prophecy?

Fair enough that's your view. I just thought that if Buddha spoke about Maietrya it would be important to Buddhists. I agree we must use our own rational faculty and minds.

 

[arthra]

Learning from others and making the teachings our own is much more advisable. Personal responsibility of belief is a very high priority for healthy religious practice, IMO

I like this statement by Luis and applaud it. Baha'u'llah in the Hidden Words revealed:

"O SON OF DUST! Verily I say unto thee: Of all men the most negligent is he that disputeth idly and seeketh to advance himself over his brother. Say, O brethren! Let deeds, not words, be your adorning."

Another one:

"O CHILDREN OF ADAM! Holy words and pure and goodly deeds ascend unto the heaven of celestial glory. Strive that your deeds may be cleansed from the dust of self and hypocrisy and find favor at the court of glory; for ere long the assayers of mankind shall, in the holy presence of the Adored One, accept naught but absolute virtue and deeds of stainless purity. This is the daystar of wisdom and of divine mystery that hath shone above the horizon of the divine will. Blessed are they that turn thereunto."

 

[loverofhumanity]

This is one of my favourite sayings from the Dhammapada:

103. If one man conquer in battle a thousand times thousand men, and if another conquer himself, he is the greatest of conquerors.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I learnt some meditation from Buddhist monks when I stayed in Burma with my wife for 5 years. She received her basic education from a monastery when she was a child in Burma. It's very peaceful in the pagodas and our family always attend the Buddhist festivals over there.

 

[arthra]

I was at San Diego State taking an informal course in Theravada Buddhism and took the four vows in front of four Thai monks...

So I'm wondering how this thread can be considered to be following the Comparative Religion board where "no debates" are allowed

The Comparative Religion subforum is for discussing and learning about different religions.

It is not for debating.

If you don't agree with what someone else has posted and want to challenge it, you need to start a thread in a debate section (e.g., Religious Debates, General Debates).

I really am not a proponent of protracted debates...even though I was in a debate squad in High School.

 

[Ingledsva]

*

We can also look at the track records of the religions you do accept, - and see that they have horrible human rights histories.

And they are all theistic religions because you defined them as such based on your own lifestyle, just as you could define ethical human rights in such a manner that justifies and values the acts of materialism against self and others.

Why how unique. If you can't rebut the argument, - just attack the person! NOT! LOL!

My lifestyle has not bearing on the reality of patriarchal religions. Where God is a male, women are inferior, the male is the head of family - kept in place by laws of inheritance, etc. Slavery, the right to rape slaves and prisoners, the horrors committed by the religions of Abraham, and on-and-on.

But the point is - you can't prove Baha'u'llah is a Manifestation of God.

YOU believe he is such.

And based on your own life, you believe that he is something besides that.

LOL! Again how would my "lifestyle" have any bearing on proof of Baha'u'llah being what he, or some folks, claim?

If a Christian applies Christian definitions to a text like the Quran, to reject it would be to reject his own definitions. And if the Quran is the text with definitions from the Islamic lifestyle, to reject it would be the rejection of a Christian text.

Whatever you mean by this - it has no bearing on the discussion.

One cannot, - without any proof, - claim Baha'u'llah - is the next Messenger spoken of by other religions, - and expect others to agree.

In other words, "It isn't so - just because you say it is so!" Where is the proof?

The fact that it retains some of the trappings of Patriarchy tells me it is not true.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

loverofhumanity said - To me it's so simple and so straightforward. It's like I've been converted to each and every Faith like an ordinary person would except I've been converted to all of them.

People can worship statues and have sacraments and such no problem. But the Bahai Faith defines their religions not as the followers do and Baha'is accept that definition.

But please try and keep in mind that the crux of the matter in redefining all these religions is that their Promised One has redefined their religion not the Baha'is.
...
Can you grasp what I'm getting at? The Promised One of all these religions is stating that what they are following is not in accordance with what He initially taught them.

So this Promised One established a new faith 'without' all this extra baggage that He considers against what He taught.
...
Now, we believe that Promised One , as you know, to be Baha'u'llah. And it's HIM not the Baha'is, not me or any other Bahai but the Promised One of ALL Faiths Who is making these calls.

So Baha'u'llah has 'redefined' and restored these religions to their pristine purity in the Bahai Faith as the followers do not want to do so but to continue doing what they are used to.

**
Ingledsva said - Your whole post comes down to, - YOU FOLKS believe Baha'u'llah is the Promised One, - and thus has some kind of right to "redefine," "restore" and "toss out supposed baggage," of religion not your own.

YOU HAVE NO PROOF THAT BAHA'U'LLAH IS SUCH.

And as I said earlier, - the fact that they are retaining some parts of patriarchy, - tells me - he is NOT that one.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

When the inclusion of materialistic practice and materialistic definitions in a text causes conflict that would not otherwise be there, that conflict is born in materialism, even if the text is the Biblical text or the Koran.

And what about such problems in the texts of Baha'u'llah?

Such as, - Keeping some of the patriarchal ideas about the position of women, and the roll of men, and whom can hold the highest religious offices, etc.

We definitely have conflict here over this religion. LOL!

*

 

[Ingledsva]

It's not me saying that. Doesn't the prophesied Maitreya or Christ returned have a say anymore in Their Faith? That's very odd. Don't They have the right to make these calls? Aren't Buddhists supposed to turn to Maitreya and Christians Christ when He returns? It's their scriptures that say that. It's very odd that you seem to be saying they should reject the Promised One foretold in their own Holy Books?? It's not our new Messenger it's 'their' Promised One.

And again - you have not proven that Baha'u'llah is such.

And Buddhist and Christian scriptures say nothing about turning to a different religion, - or to a religion rising out of Islamic ideas.

You are adding your beliefs to their scriptures.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

loverofhumanity said - To me it's so simple and so straightforward. It's like I've been converted to each and every Faith like an ordinary person would except I've been converted to all of them.

People can worship statues and have sacraments and such no problem. But the Bahai Faith defines their religions not as the followers do and Baha'is accept that definition.

But please try and keep in mind that the crux of the matter in redefining all these religions is that their Promised One has redefined their religion not the Baha'is.
...
Can you grasp what I'm getting at? The Promised One of all these religions is stating that what they are following is not in accordance with what He initially taught them.

So this Promised One established a new faith 'without' all this extra baggage that He considers against what He taught.
...
Now, we believe that Promised One , as you know, to be Baha'u'llah. And it's HIM not the Baha'is, not me or any other Bahai but the Promised One of ALL Faiths Who is making these calls.

So Baha'u'llah has 'redefined' and restored these religions to their pristine purity in the Bahai Faith as the followers do not want to do so but to continue doing what they are used to.

**
Ingledsva said - Your whole post comes down to, - YOU FOLKS believe Baha'u'llah is the Promised One, - and thus has some kind of right to "redefine," "restore" and "toss out supposed baggage," of religion not your own.

YOU HAVE NO PROOF THAT BAHA'U'LLAH IS SUCH.

And as I said earlier, - the fact that they are retaining some parts of patriarchy, - tells me - he is NOT that one.

*

Why would you "like" me saying you have no proof? And my noting of all the words about changing others' religions, = define - redefine - restore, without the extra baggage, etc?

*

 

[Ingledsva]

We can't honestly placate an ardent feminist so I won't try. All I can say is we don't know now why women cannot serve on the Universal House of Justice but we don't put it down to sexism or things like that. I don't know why so do with me as you please on this matter.

They retain their patriarchal background. One doesn't have to be a feminist to see that.

In a Tablet to an early woman believer 'Abdu’l-Bahá stated: 'O maidservant of God! Know thou that in the sight of God, the conduct of women is the same as that of men… From the spiritual point of view… there is no difference between women and men…' He added, however: 'As to the House of Justice: according to the explicit text of the Law of God, its membership is exclusively reserved to men. There is divine wisdom in this which will presently be made manifest even as the mid-day sun.'

It amasses me that you keep choosing verses that show that he was not talking about TRUE equality, - but instead bringing the place or traditional rolls of women - into some kind of equality with men's rolls.

It is not true equality when women are expect to play the same old roll as mother, second in the household to the male, can't hold the highest religious offices, etc. That is just a fact.

The beloved Guardian in reply to the same query from a believer pointed out in a letter written on his behalf on July 15th 1947: 'People must just accept the fact that women are not eligible to the International House of Justice. As the Master says the wisdom of this will be known in the future, we can only accept, believing it is right; but not able to give an explanation calculated to silence an ardent feminist!'

How convenient, - your religion ultimately keeps women under men, like all other patriarchal religions, and is going to tell us why in some future.

I don't think so!

*

 

[loverofhumanity]

loverofhumanity said - To me it's so simple and so straightforward. It's like I've been converted to each and every Faith like an ordinary person would except I've been converted to all of them.

People can worship statues and have sacraments and such no problem. But the Bahai Faith defines their religions not as the followers do and Baha'is accept that definition.

But please try and keep in mind that the crux of the matter in redefining all these religions is that their Promised One has redefined their religion not the Baha'is.
...
Can you grasp what I'm getting at? The Promised One of all these religions is stating that what they are following is not in accordance with what He initially taught them.

So this Promised One established a new faith 'without' all this extra baggage that He considers against what He taught.
...
Now, we believe that Promised One , as you know, to be Baha'u'llah. And it's HIM not the Baha'is, not me or any other Bahai but the Promised One of ALL Faiths Who is making these calls.

So Baha'u'llah has 'redefined' and restored these religions to their pristine purity in the Bahai Faith as the followers do not want to do so but to continue doing what they are used to.

**
Ingledsva said - Your whole post comes down to, - YOU FOLKS believe Baha'u'llah is the Promised One, - and thus has some kind of right to "redefine," "restore" and "toss out supposed baggage," of religion not your own.

YOU HAVE NO PROOF THAT BAHA'U'LLAH IS SUCH.

And as I said earlier, - the fact that they are retaining some parts of patriarchy, - tells me - he is NOT that one.

*

His Writings are proof. They transform souls. Brought about the sciences and inventions of this age. They are creative words not ordinary words.

He said "The world is but one country and mankind its citizens' and all the sciences obeyed that command and created the technologies and world communications which unite us.

If He said that and nothing happened and the world remained in darkness then your point would be true but He uttered those words before any of these discoveries took place. A coincidence? He uttered so many words addressing the people of the world. How would He have known His Words would reach our ears? But they have.