What if we accepted each other's religion?

[Ingledsva]

When it becomes clear why women can't serve on the Universal House of Justice then we can give a proper answer but at present none of us know. But the Baha'i Writings are very supporting of women and are not sexist.

You can't get around the fact that they are still sexist. They want women in more traditional rolls, and not as the leaders in religion, or home

*

 

[Ingledsva]

His Writings are proof. They transform souls. Brought about the sciences and inventions of this age. They are creative words not ordinary words.

That is your opinion.

He said "The world is but one country and mankind its citizens' and all the sciences obeyed that command and created the technologies and world communications which unite us.

This is absolute baloney - science didn't follow any such word. Nor do modern world technologies make anything he may have said true.

If He said that and nothing happened and the world remained in darkness then your point would be true but He uttered those words before any of these discoveries took place. A coincidence? He uttered so many words addressing the people of the world. How would He have known His Words would reach our ears? But they have.

Again this is self fulfilling baloney. It is not in any sense true.

Philosophies of peace - spouted by anyone - ring on all ears that hear, or register in the brains of all that read them.

Philosophical words do not a Messenger of God, or Promised One - make.

*

 

[arthra]

It's not me saying that. Doesn't the prophesied Maitreya or Christ returned have a say anymore in Their Faith? That's very odd. Don't They have the right to make these calls? Aren't Buddhists supposed to turn to Maitreya and Christians Christ when He returns? It's their scriptures that say that. It's very odd that you seem to be saying they should reject the Promised One foretold in their own Holy Books?? It's not our new Messenger it's 'their' Promised One.

There's a good book I'd suggest entitled the "Anagatavamsa Desana The Chronicle To Be" translated by Udaya Meddegama and edited by John Clifford Holt and of course my old friend Jamshid Fozdar's books are excellent.

 

[crossfire]

**Moved to General Religious Debates**​

 

[loverofhumanity]

There's a good book I'd suggest entitled the "Anagatavamsa Desana The Chronicle To Be" translated by Udaya Meddegama and edited by John Clifford Holt and of course my old friend Jamshid Fozdar's books are excellent.

I'm trying to buy Fozdar's Books and this as well but can't find them anywhere and this book is out of print. If you know where I can get any of these I'd appreciate it. Many thanks.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That is your opinion.



This is absolute baloney - science didn't follow any such word. Nor do modern world technologies make anything he may have said true.



Again this is self fulfilling baloney. It is not in any sense true.

Philosophies of peace - spouted by anyone - ring on all ears that hear, or register in the brains of all that read them.

Philosophical words do not a Messenger of God, or Promised One - make.

*

You obviously don't believe in the creative word of God or that spiritual forces exist? You think Baha'u'llah's Revelation arriving right at the dawn of the technological age was a coincidence?

Why didn't the Buddha or Christ or Muhammad declare the world to be one country in Their time? Because They knew it was not the right time. World unity, the oneness of humanity and religion is only a new concept taught by Baha'u'llah only from 1863 onwards. On the very day the Bab proclaimed His Mission the first telegram was sent. For thousands of years no technology then all of a sudden Two Manifestations of God appear and we get drowned in it? C'mon this is being unreasonable to suggest nothing happened and it's all a coincidence or baloney?

 

[Ingledsva]

You obviously don't believe in the creative word of God or that spiritual forces exist?

You have not proven such.

You think Baha'u'llah's Revelation arriving right at the dawn of the technological age was a coincidence?

People were traveling around the world, and bringing back technology, knowledge, archaeological finds, books, and philosophy, - long before Baha'u'llah was born (1817.)

So obviously there was no "coincidence" to be claimed by him, or you folks. Technology goes a long way back.

For instance - long before Baha'u'llah - China invented: guns (13th Century A.D.,) gunpowder, crossbows, water clock, magnetic compass, earthquake proof buildings, etc.

Why didn't the Buddha or Christ or Muhammad declare the world to be one country in Their time?

Because They knew it was not the right time. World unity, the oneness of humanity and religion is only a new concept taught by Baha'u'llah only from 1863 onwards.

WHAT? All of the major Abrahamic religions claim ONE God created all - and eventually we will ALL be back under one government, - and God.

Christian - John 10:16 Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd"

Jewish - Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Buddha - “He who experiences the unity of life sees his own Self in all beings, and all beings in his own Self, and looks on everything with an impartial eye.”

“In the sky, there is no distinction of east and west; people create distinctions out of their own minds and then believe them to be true.”

On the very day the Bab proclaimed His Mission the first telegram was sent. For thousands of years no technology then all of a sudden Two Manifestations of God appear and we get drowned in it? C'mon this is being unreasonable to suggest nothing happened and it's all a coincidence or baloney?

Again - doesn't make it so. People were traveling the world and spreading technowlgy, and knowledge long before Baha'u'llah.

Someone is out there right now - preaching as a Messenger/Messiah, - who was born with the advent of the computer age, - so, - with your reasoning, - he must be the Promised One.

I mean after all, - this NEW prophet was born with real technology, - the computer, - to spread his message to the WHOLE world, - means that right? NOT!

*

 

[arthra]

I'm trying to buy Fozdar's Books and this as well but can't find them anywhere and this book is out of print. If you know where I can get any of these I'd appreciate it. Many thanks.

You might try:

http://www.abebooks.com/book-search/author/fozdar-jamshed/

 

[arthra]

For instance - long before Baha'u'llah - China invented: guns (13th Century A.D.,) gunpowder, crossbows, water clock, magnetic compass, earthquake proof buildings, etc.

Isn't that wonderful! Baha'u'llah has revealed:

All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. The Almighty beareth Me witness: To act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man. Those virtues that befit his dignity are forbearance, mercy, compassion and loving-kindness towards all the peoples and kindreds of the earth

~ Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 214

 

[arthra]

religions claim ONE God created all - and eventually we will ALL be back under one government, - and God.

Christian - John 10:16 Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd"

Jewish - Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Buddha - “He who experiences the unity of life sees his own Self in all beings, and all beings in his own Self, and looks on everything with an impartial eye.”

“In the sky, there is no distinction of east and west; people create distinctions out of their own minds and then believe them to be true.”

Yes... and isn't that wonderful! I think the spiritual vision of the Messengers is pretty much the same as you've taken the trouble to show. What Baha'u'llah has done is provide the specific blueprint for building a representative world parliament and an international court of arbitration to resolve differences!

 

[loverofhumanity]

You have not proven such.



People were traveling around the world, and bringing back technology, knowledge, archaeological finds, books, and philosophy, - long before Baha'u'llah was born (1817.)

So obviously there was no "coincidence" to be claimed by him, or you folks. Technology goes a long way back.

For instance - long before Baha'u'llah - China invented: guns (13th Century A.D.,) gunpowder, crossbows, water clock, magnetic compass, earthquake proof buildings, etc.



WHAT? All of the major Abrahamic religions claim ONE God created all - and eventually we will ALL be back under one government, - and God.

Christian - John 10:16 Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd"

Jewish - Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Buddha - “He who experiences the unity of life sees his own Self in all beings, and all beings in his own Self, and looks on everything with an impartial eye.”

“In the sky, there is no distinction of east and west; people create distinctions out of their own minds and then believe them to be true.”



Again - doesn't make it so. People were traveling the world and spreading technowlgy, and knowledge long before Baha'u'llah.

Someone is out there right now - preaching as a Messenger/Messiah, - who was born with the advent of the computer age, - so, - with your reasoning, - he must be the Promised One.

I mean after all, - this NEW prophet was born with real technology, - the computer, - to spread his message to the WHOLE world, - means that right? NOT!

*

World communications. Check the dates. Samuel morse sends the first telegraph from Washington to Baltimore May 24th the day after the birth of the Baha'i Faith saying "what hath God wrought"

http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/reform/jb_reform_morsecod_1.html

But coincidence I suppose. Gunpowder is not a world communication device. No world communication technologies arrived before Baha'u'llah but once He announced His Mission science went wild obeying His Words to make world unity a reality.

One fold and one shepherd is a prophecy about the Bahai Faith and those who are not in the fold means those of all the other religions will be united in one religion. Common sense.

 

[Ingledsva]

*

You think Baha'u'llah's Revelation arriving right at the dawn of the technological age was a coincidence?

People were traveling around the world, and bringing back technology, knowledge, archaeological finds, books, and philosophy, - long before Baha'u'llah was born (1817.)

So obviously there was no "coincidence" to be claimed by him, or you folks. Technology goes a long way back.

For instance - long before Baha'u'llah - China invented: guns (13th Century A.D.,) gunpowder, crossbows, water clock, magnetic compass, earthquake proof buildings, etc.

Isn't that wonderful! Baha'u'llah has revealed:

All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. The Almighty beareth Me witness: To act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man. Those virtues that befit his dignity are forbearance, mercy, compassion and loving-kindness towards all the peoples and kindreds of the earth

~ Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 214

Taken out of context. And Baha'u'llah writing about the obvious, as others have, - in no way means he actually reveals anything new, or is a Promised One.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

World communications. Check the dates. Samuel morse sends the first telegraph from Washington to Baltimore May 24th the day after the birth of the Baha'i Faith saying "what hath God wrought"

http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/reform/jb_reform_morsecod_1.html

But coincidence I suppose. Gunpowder is not a world communication device. No world communication technologies arrived before Baha'u'llah but once He announced His Mission science went wild obeying His Words to make world unity a reality.

One fold and one shepherd is a prophecy about the Bahai Faith and those who are not in the fold means those of all the other religions will be united in one religion. Common sense.

What is your point?

The telegraph merely sped up communications. They were communicating, and sharing inventions, long before Baha'u'llah.

And as stated, - some other person claiming to be a Prophet, - has been born with the start of real world communication, - the computer. So is he the real Awaited One? leaving Baha'u'llah in the dust? Why would being born with newer technology make one a Promised One? It wouldn't.

People have been traveling, and sharing religion, philosophy, inventions, etc., for thousands of years.

And again - science was not obeying his words just because he was born at the time of the telegraph. That is ridiculous.

"One fold and one shepherd" - is only a prophecy of Baha'u'llah, - in Baha'i thought. It is not a fact.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

*

Why didn't the Buddha or Christ or Muhammad declare the world to be one country in Their time?

Because They knew it was not the right time. World unity, the oneness of humanity and religion is only a new concept taught by Baha'u'llah only from 1863 onwards.

WHAT? All of the major Abrahamic religions claim ONE God created all - and eventually we will ALL be back under one government, - and God.

Christian - John 10:16 Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd"

Jewish - Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Buddha - “He who experiences the unity of life sees his own Self in all beings, and all beings in his own Self, and looks on everything with an impartial eye.”

“In the sky, there is no distinction of east and west; people create distinctions out of their own minds and then believe them to be true.”

Yes... and isn't that wonderful! I think the spiritual vision of the Messengers is pretty much the same as you've taken the trouble to show. What Baha'u'llah has done is provide the specific blueprint for building a representative world parliament and an international court of arbitration to resolve differences!

What I did there was show that loverofhumanity was wrong. The idea of all humanity being one in peace in the future, is nothing new.

They all give the same "blueprint." Follow MY Prophet, and MY God, - and whallah it will happen!

The Baha'i religion is no different.

*

 

[loverofhumanity]

What I did there was show that loverofhumanity was wrong. The idea of all humanity being one in peace in the future, is nothing new.

They all give the same "blueprint." Follow MY Prophet, and MY God, - and whallah it will happen!

The Baha'i religion is no different.

*

But peace won't drop out of the sky. It's up to us people to join together and change our outlook to a more global one if we are to have that peace.

Then, unless people become spiritual and virtuous again where's peace going to come from? Unless we educate our children and youth spiritually nothing will change. Who's going to educate them and how?

People have become very complacent about peace because it doesn't affect them. But if we see humanity as our own family do we want our own family to suffer?

That's the reason wars continue because we only care about our race, colour or nationality or religion and not humanity. That is what the Baha'is seek to correct. To prioritise a love for humanity over all other loves.

There's plenty of people who agree peace is a good idea but if we really care we need to act and that's what we're about.

We're reeducating and building up a whole new world civilisation from scratch as a bandaid on the current world cannot fix it.

At least we are trying rebuild communities all over the world and not just leave them to degenerate. We work on these projects with all people not just Baha'is.

http://www.bahai.org/frontiers/

 

[crossfire]

But peace won't drop out of the sky. It's up to us people to join together and change our outlook to a more global one if we are to have that peace.

Then, unless people become spiritual and virtuous again where's peace going to come from? Unless we educate our children and youth spiritually nothing will change. Who's going to educate them and how?

People have become very complacent about peace because it doesn't affect them. But if we see humanity as our own family do we want our own family to suffer?

That's the reason wars continue because we only care about our race, colour or nationality or religion and not humanity. That is what the Baha'is seek to correct. To prioritise a love for humanity over all other loves.

There's plenty of people who agree peace is a good idea but if we really care we need to act and that's what we're about.

I agree with you that peace won't drop out of the sky (collective.) Wars and such seem to be the fruits of the collective/herd mentality. Trying to join all the collectives together will likely lead to sudden fragmentation, as can be witnessed via family strife, civil unrest, etc, within the tribal collectives we see today. One might even point to the joining together of the people "with one mind" at the biblical story of the tower of Babel, followed by the sudden fragmentation of this "super collective." I would say that looking to a different place would probably be more prudent, as the collective egregores are susceptible to poisoning by greed, hatred, or delusion from the individual minds of the collective, and that poison then quickly spreads to other individuals in that collective. I would say a more effective place to concentrate efforts for change would be for each individual to look within themselves, resolve any poisons like greed, hatred, or delusion they find there, and make themselves resistant to these poisons that might be spreading among any collective they might be influenced by.

We're reeducating and building up a whole new world civilisation from scratch as a bandaid on the current world cannot fix it.

At least we are trying rebuild communities all over the world and not just leave them to degenerate. We work on these projects with all people not just Baha'is.

http://www.bahai.org/frontiers/

I also agree with you that education is important. Individuals need to be able to think for themselves in order to resist poisons spread via collective egregores. I just disagree that a single supercollective will solve the problem. (As you said, "Peace won't drop out of the sky.") Individuals have to look within and cure themselves first.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

"But for Him no Divine Messenger would have been invested with the robe of prophethood, nor would any of the sacred scriptures have been revealed. To this bear witness all created things.” (Baha'u'llah)

The ultimate goal of each Faith is the appearance of their Promised One - Baha'u'llah. Every scripture prepares their followers for this eventuality. But it is also their supreme test. Will they stick with what they're used to or turn to the One foretold on their scriptures. That's their call.

So every member of another religion is really a failed Baha'i? If I was religious, I'd feel insulted.

Have you ever seen the movie Full Metal Jacket? There's a quote that expresses the same sort of sentiment you're expressing here:

"We are here to help the Vietnamese, because inside every g___ there is an American trying to get out."

 

[loverofhumanity]

I agree with you that peace won't drop out of the sky (collective.) Wars and such seem to be the fruits of the collective/herd mentality. Trying to join all the collectives together will likely lead to sudden fragmentation, as can be witnessed via family strife, civil unrest, etc, within the tribal collectives we see today. One might even point to the joining together of the people "with one mind" at the biblical story of the tower of Babel, followed by the sudden fragmentation of this "super collective." I would say that looking to a different place would probably be more prudent, as the collective egregores are susceptible to poisoning by greed, hatred, or delusion from the individual minds of the collective, and that poison then quickly spreads to other individuals in that collective. I would say a more effective place to concentrate efforts for change would be for each individual to look within themselves, resolve any poisons like greed, hatred, or delusion they find there, and make themselves resistant to these poisons that might be spreading among any collective they might be influenced by.



I also agree with you that education is important. Individuals need to be able to think for themselves in order to resist poisons spread via collective egregores. I just disagree that a single supercollective will solve the problem. (As you said, "Peace won't drop out of the sky.") Individuals have to look within and cure themselves first.

Yes, as society is comprised of individuals we are the result collectively of what we are individually. Educating minds and hearts to have a broader vision of humanity than just our race or our nation or religion is the challenge.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So every member of another religion is really a failed Baha'i? If I was religious, I'd feel insulted.

Have you ever seen the movie Full Metal Jacket? There's a quote that expresses the same sort of sentiment you're expressing here:

"We are here to help the Vietnamese, because inside every g___ there is an American trying to get out."

It's not a matter of failure it's more of needing to expand our consciousness and raise it above loyalty to just race, religion or nationality to include all humanity. We are segregated into opposing camps from history but now because technology has united us into a global,village we need to redefine our identity to be all inclusive if we want to get along.

 

[LuisDantas]

It's not a matter of failure it's more of needing to expand our consciousness and raise it above loyalty to just race, religion or nationality to include all humanity. We are segregated into opposing camps from history but now because technology has united us into a global,village we need to redefine our identity to be all inclusive if we want to get along.

And the way to do that would be to adopt Abrahamic god-beliefs?

Sorry... but that just makes no sense.