What if we accepted each other's religion?

[spirit_of_dawn]

You weren't defending yourself when you attacked other religions right in your first post of the thread, calling them "man made dogmas and interpretations."

They just us the word "attack" to play the victim when someone criticizes their beliefs. It is interesting to note that their leadership goes to great efforts to hide and censor any historical document and writing that will expose their flaws. For example see this:

https://www.h-net.org/~bahai/docs/vol6/salmuhj.htm

 

[loverofhumanity]

It's clear there are some that have an agenda against us and there's nothing we can do to placate these people because no matter what we say they will always oppose. Like those here who posted that the Qaim would come in an odd year and accused Momen of 'doctoring' and dishonesty when there is already an authoritative book by non Baha'is (Muslims) verifying exactly what Momen said. It's true character assassination and defamatory.

Both the website promoting the lies and their supporters have some explaining to do why they are character assassinating innocent authors when evidence exists exonerating them completely of these false accusations and false charges.

Not checking facts thoroughly, blindly believing enemies of the Baha'i Faith confident they are all knowing is a trap to be ensnared in if one has proof put in front of them that these accusations are false.

Page 517 of this very qualified Book by a famous Muslim Scholar translated by a Lecturer in Arabic states on page 517 contrary to lies being spread about Momen that......

The Year in whiCh The Qā’im will arise.

As for the exact year and day on which the one who will rise (al-qā’im), peace be on him and his fathers, rises, there have been handed down reports concerning that on the authority of truthful men.
[Al-Ḥasan b. Maḥbūb reported on the authority of ‘Alī b. Abī Ḥama, on the authonty of Abū Baṣīr, on the authority of Abū ‘Abd Allāh (Ja‘far al-Ṣādiq), peace be on him:]
(Ja‘far al-Ṣādiq) said: “The one who will rise (al-qā’im) will not come forth in an odd year: one, three, five seven or nine.”

Download the book yourself if you don't believe me. I have a copy on my Tablet. It's all lies and false fabrications and please don't try and bring anymore to me as this is just exposing those websites as malicious and intent on character assassinating completely innocent people when Momen's source a Muslim book backs him up COMPLETELY.

There was NO justification for the attack on Momen by the website and those here who raced to try and discredit him.

Now look with your OWN eyes and see that there is another qualified source that says that the Qaim will NOT come in an odd year, Momen was not dishonest or changed any translation whatsoever and deserves an unqualified apology which people who concoct these lies assuredly do not have the good sense to admit.

You think that malicious website does not know that there are other translations which say the opposite of what they say? Of course they do but fair play towards Momen is not the objective but to try and blacken his good name. I have no time for those kind of people. Please do not bring anymore of these disgraceful false accusations to me as I will not answer them. They are clearly malicious and unfair. Momen was only quoting from a qualified source that says the Qaim will NOT come in an odd year and has committed no wrong. So why these false lies and defamatory and malicious assertions?

Obviously you didn't check to see whether that website told the truth or whether Momen was quoting from another qualified Muslim source. You just rushed to judgement as you were so sure of yourself that you couldn't be wrong well you are and Momen is owed an apology.

Rushing to judgment like that makes YOU look bad because Momen is not that stupid to leave himself open to such an attack. It's you and these websites who are not looking at his source and just going for the jugular insincerely to try and blacken his good name without any thought you might be wrong and you were dead wrong. And so was that site but I suspect they know that there's other translations out there which support Momen but they don't want the naive to know that. And boy are you naive for falling for it hook, line and sinker as I have produced PROOF of other qualified sources backing up fully what Momen wrote and he did NOT change any translation.

Download that book for yourself while you wipe the egg off your face.

MOMEN IS INNOCENT.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's not an attack on anyone. It's just what the Baha'i Faith doesn't believe in that applies only to us. Others can believe whatever they want.

If somebody called what you believed "man made dogma", would you consider this an attack?

 

[loverofhumanity]

If somebody called what you believed "man made dogma", would you consider this an attack?

No as they're entitled to their opinion.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This is the download link for the Kiab Al Irshad which prophecies the coming of the Qaim NOT in an odd year page 517. A website has been spreading malicious lies about a Baha'i author accusing him of changing the translation in his own books but this Muslim book confirms that the Baha'i author wrote precisely the correct information and did not alter anything.

http://www.shia-maktab.info/index.php/en/library/books/english?format=raw&task=download&fid=93

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Truth cannot accept falsehood and vice versa

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

It's clear there are some that have an agenda against us and there's nothing we can do to placate these people because no matter what we say they will always oppose. Like those here who posted that the Qaim would come in an odd year and accused Momen of 'doctoring' and dishonesty when there is already an authoritative book by non Baha'is (Muslims) verifying exactly what Momen said. It's true character assassination and defamatory.

Both the website promoting the lies and their supporters have some explaining to do why they are character assassinating innocent authors when evidence exists exonerating them completely of these false accusations and false charges.

Not checking facts thoroughly, blindly believing enemies of the Baha'i Faith confident they are all knowing is a trap to be ensnared in if one has proof put in front of them that these accusations are false.

Page 517 of this very qualified Book by a famous Muslim Scholar translated by a Lecturer in Arabic states on page 517 contrary to lies being spread about Momen that......

The Year in whiCh The Qā’im will arise.

As for the exact year and day on which the one who will rise (al-qā’im), peace be on him and his fathers, rises, there have been handed down reports concerning that on the authority of truthful men.
[Al-Ḥasan b. Maḥbūb reported on the authority of ‘Alī b. Abī Ḥama, on the authonty of Abū Baṣīr, on the authority of Abū ‘Abd Allāh (Ja‘far al-Ṣādiq), peace be on him:]
(Ja‘far al-Ṣādiq) said: “The one who will rise (al-qā’im) will not come forth in an odd year: one, three, five seven or nine.”

Download the book yourself if you don't believe me. I have a copy on my Tablet. It's all lies and false fabrications and please don't try and bring anymore to me as this is just exposing those websites as malicious and intent on character assassinating completely innocent people when Momen's source a Muslim book backs him up COMPLETELY.

There was NO justification for the attack on Momen by the website and those here who raced to try and discredit him.

Now look with your OWN eyes and see that there is another qualified source that says that the Qaim will NOT come in an odd year, Momen was not dishonest or changed any translation whatsoever and deserves an unqualified apology which people who concoct these lies assuredly do not have the good sense to admit.

You think that malicious website does not know that there are other translations which say the opposite of what they say? Of course they do but fair play towards Momen is not the objective but to try and blacken his good name. I have no time for those kind of people. Please do not bring anymore of these disgraceful false accusations to me as I will not answer them. They are clearly malicious and unfair. Momen was only quoting from a qualified source that says the Qaim will NOT come in an odd year and has committed no wrong. So why these false lies and defamatory and malicious assertions?

Obviously you didn't check to see whether that website told the truth or whether Momen was quoting from another qualified Muslim source. You just rushed to judgement as you were so sure of yourself that you couldn't be wrong well you are and Momen is owed an apology.

Rushing to judgment like that makes YOU look bad because Momen is not that stupid to leave himself open to such an attack. It's you and these websites who are not looking at his source and just going for the jugular insincerely to try and blacken his good name without any thought you might be wrong and you were dead wrong. And so was that site but I suspect they know that there's other translations out there which support Momen but they don't want the naive to know that. And boy are you naive for falling for it hook, line and sinker as I have produced PROOF of other qualified sources backing up fully what Momen wrote and he did NOT change any translation.

Download that book for yourself while you wipe the egg off your face.

MOMEN IS INNOCENT.

And this only shows your ignorance regarding the Arabic language. This is the original Arabic:

الإرشاد 2 378 فصل ..... ص : 378
لا يخرج القائم إلا في وتر من السنين سنة إحدى أو ثلاث أو خمس أو سبع أو تسع

Google search brings it up in numerous digital libraries:

https://www.google.com/search?q=+لا...و+ثلاث+أو+خمس+أو+سبع+أو+تسع&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Get an Arab to translate it for you. The translator left out a small word which translates to "but" meaning this was the original:

[Al-Ḥasan b. Maḥbūb reported on the authority of ‘Alī b. Abī Ḥama, on the authonty of Abū Baṣīr, on the authority of Abū ‘Abd Allāh (Ja‘far al-Ṣādiq), peace be on him:]
(Ja‘far al-Ṣādiq) said: “The one who will rise (al-qā’im) will not come forth BUT in an odd year: one, three, five seven or nine.”

But since the correct translation contradicts Baha'i teachings, you go along promoting a flawed translation and bashing people who point out that the translation is incorrect.

Have a good day.

 

[LuisDantas]

Truth cannot accept falsehood and vice versa

I don't know about that.

I do, however, feel confortable to assure you that I am not intending to ever give anyone who perceives himself as the voice of the True Religion coming from the One True God much in the way of trust. I have a good understanding of how silly and dangerous such delusions of "truthfulness" usually are.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

For a start man has not been able to find peace in thousands of years.
So why not give WOMAN a chance. I bet women can do a much better job at establishing peace than men don't you?

Really? Some of the women I know would destroy the world around them for a week every month.

 

[loverofhumanity]

And this only shows your ignorance regarding the Arabic language. This is the original Arabic:

الإرشاد 2 378 فصل ..... ص : 378
لا يخرج القائم إلا في وتر من السنين سنة إحدى أو ثلاث أو خمس أو سبع أو تسع

Google search brings it up in numerous digital libraries:

https://www.google.com/search?q=+لا...و+ثلاث+أو+خمس+أو+سبع+أو+تسع&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Get an Arab to translate it for you. The translator left out a small word which translates to "but" meaning this was the original:

[Al-Ḥasan b. Maḥbūb reported on the authority of ‘Alī b. Abī Ḥama, on the authonty of Abū Baṣīr, on the authority of Abū ‘Abd Allāh (Ja‘far al-Ṣādiq), peace be on him:]
(Ja‘far al-Ṣādiq) said: “The one who will rise (al-qā’im) will not come forth BUT in an odd year: one, three, five seven or nine.”

But since the correct translation contradicts Baha'i teachings, you go along promoting a flawed translation and bashing people who point out that the translation is incorrect.

Have a good day.

The translator is not incompetent.

Also, the accusations against Momen are unjustified as this version shows the Qaim will not come in an odd year so how can he be accused of changing the translation when this supports his views? Momen did not change anything. He just quoted from this book. That means he changed nothing. Why is Momen being accused of 'changing' the translation when he obviously didn't as this book clearly shows?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Really? Some of the women I know would destroy the world around them for a week every month.

That's just hypothetical. Women have never been given a proper chance to rule like man has for thousands of years. Let's give them that chance then judge.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

The translator is not incompetent.

Also, the accusations against Momen are unjustified as this version shows the Qaim will not come in an odd year so how can he be accused of changing the translation when this supports his views? Momen did not change anything. He just quoted from this book. That means he changed nothing. Why is Momen being accused of 'changing' the translation when he obviously didn't as this book clearly shows?

The translation is wrong, either deliberately, accidentally, or out of ignorance.

The Arabic I provided is for this version! A wrong translation cannot be regarded as proof for one's wrong beliefs.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The translation is wrong, either deliberately, accidentally, or out of ignorance.

The Arabic I provided is for this version! A wrong translation cannot be regarded as proof for one's wrong beliefs.

I reject that. There may be different books of different sects which record the tradition differently but Momen was accused of doctoring the translation which he clearly didn't. Why isn't that false accusation put to rest as Momen did nothing wrong by quoting from a different Muslim source. For that he gets character assassinated? The Book is the Irshad and there may be varying versions of it but to say Momen doctored it was wrong.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

I reject that. There may be different books of different sects which record the tradition differently but Momen was accused of doctoring the translation which he clearly didn't. Why isn't that false accusation put to rest as Momen did nothing wrong by quoting from a different Muslim source. For that he gets character assassinated? The Book is the Irshad and there may be varying versions of it but to say Momen doctored it was wrong.

There is no varying version of the book of Irshad. Momen being a self proclaimed scholar who also happens to know Arabic, should have double checked his sources.

 

[loverofhumanity]

There is no varying version of the book of Irshad. Momen being a self proclaimed scholar who also happens to know Arabic, should have double checked his sources.

The accusations are false as he doctored nothing.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This generation doesn't appreciate truth. Future generations will appreciate it.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Seriously what did I just read!!

For a second I thought I'm in the Baha'i sub not in the "General Religious Debate" section.

 

[tonyamendola]

That is an excuse. You have no proof of Baha'u'llah being that one.



I have shown that they actually are not. Your religion wants to raise woman's place to equity with men's place ,- but not true equality, - which would get rid of that "place."

In other words they still want men as head of house and religion, etc.



That isn't actually true though.

Your religion is telling other religions that YOUR Prophet is the ONE to follow.

Your religion says that all these religions say their prophet is coming back, - and that YOUR prophet is that ONE, - thus you are claiming "right of leadership" over those religions.

*

I really do like the Bahai teachings but as always people get stuck on the messenger rather than the message.
I have a dear Bahai friend who still tells me Bahai is the only way while i sit before them having experienced God directly having never read a word written by Bahaulla.

I guess at some point we will realise that its not the form (name of the messenger) that is the importance, but the content.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I really do like the Bahai teachings but as always people get stuck on the messenger rather than the message.
I have a dear Bahai friend who still tells me Bahai is the only way while i sit before them having experienced God directly having never read a word written by Bahaulla.

I guess at some point we will realise that its not the form (name of the messenger) that is the importance, but the content.

We all have some personal experiences and that is really something for ourselves as others cannot see it. I had a brilliant experience too. The thing is the Baha'i Faith is here also to help us to unlearn. So you will find Baha'is who are from this world repeating a lot of the world's mistakes. It will take centuries to get out of this mode of exclusiveness and it is a sickness of the soul. If you read the Baha'i Teachings Baha'u'llah came to create a 'new race of men' incomparable in character and a new world civilisation. These are a work in progress. So of course you will not yet see anything anywhere near the 'finished product' except perhaps in Abdul-Baha. He was not like you say and He is the One we are told to exemplify our behaviour on.

What is of concern to me personally is not whether people become Baha'i or not but that we have a defective, corrupt world that needs replacing with something better and good people everywhere need to come together to do something rather than just talk. Nobody seems to have a workable plan at rebuilding the world other than the Baha'is and I want a better world than this. I can't accept the wars and hatreds and prejudices. If there were any other workable plan of uniting humanity I would be first to embrace it but there isn't. Basically people just want a good time and a good life but there's so many suffering and being ignored. I want a just world where everyone has a chance of a good education, access to medicines and work and clean water and free from oppression. So I'm building that world brick by brick and there's just no other choice as all else is just about profit.
Good people need to unite and build a better world and this time have women build it because men have ruined it over conquest after conquest in an inhumane race for power and wealth. And the Baha'is are doing this so I joined them.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I really do like the Bahai teachings but as always people get stuck on the messenger rather than the message.

You have no idea how true this is; especially here.