What if we accepted each others Religion?

[TransmutingSoul]

My religion says that you're wrong on that.

So does your religion, since only the aspects of your religion that agree with me are genuine.

(This is how this works, right?)

It works as the One God allows me to embrace your choice and live with you in Love and Peace.

What will be your choice in allowing that?

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Confession may have never become doctrine and Idol filled Churches not raised, if more Jews had embraces Jesus Christ.

Confessions and use of artefacts are not teachings of Jesus Christ.

Consider also, we could say, what if people had accepted the Most Great Peace? The face of Baha'i would also be vastly different.

Regards Tony

Hmmm? I thought the Jews that did convert had a lot to say about what should be done, but Paul went against them and won out.

I've heard some Baha'is say that Paul changed the direction that Christianity would go... and it wasn't a good direction. Then some Baha'is are okay with Paul. But it was that direction that led to the Roman Church becoming dominant.

But Paul was early on and he went up against the apostles and won out.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hmmm? I thought the Jews that did convert had a lot to say about what should be done, but Paul went against them and won out.

I've heard some Baha'is say that Paul changed the direction that Christianity would go... and it wasn't a good direction. Then some Baha'is are okay with Paul. But it was that direction that led to the Roman Church becoming dominant.

But Paul was early on and he went up against the apostles and won out.

The big picture is that we should try to learn from the past CG, not to use it against each other.

If the Christians could have understood what Muhammad was saying about the trinity, then they may not so easily reject the Messengers that came after. Likewise with the Muslim interpretation of the Seal of the Prophets, being the final revelation. That cannot be proven to be a sound and logical interpretation.

The issue is, people want an exclusive God, one that fits in with their understanding, it is in our nature and nurture to do this, a nature and nurture we have to rise above. A hard journey to take.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

Hmmm? I thought the Jews that did convert had a lot to say about what should be done, but Paul went against them and won out.

I've heard some Baha'is say that Paul changed the direction that Christianity would go... and it wasn't a good direction. Then some Baha'is are okay with Paul. But it was that direction that led to the Roman Church becoming dominant.

But Paul was early on and he went up against the apostles and won out.

Actually, Paul had to submit to the apostles according to the New Testament. It clearly shows that the apostles had more authority than Paul. It's true that Paul was writing before the gospel writers but you should realize that the Gospel writers were predominantly writing a biography of Jesus while Paul who was writing earlier was writing on his own accord. Since the Pauline Christology seems to "won out", it's got to be after the dominance of the disciples which means someone or a group of people picked his teachings as superior much later and enforced it.

Anyway, the Bahai writings fleetingly quote some passages of Paul's writings as and when it's nice. Effendi quotes his verse from first Corinthians and correlates it to Bahaullah's small piece of writing from the kithabul iqan as if it makes a big impact for the chapter called "Great Resurrection" (As I remember the chapter name). That's how the Bahai's quote Paul. Cherry picked to suit a confirmation bias.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Anyway, the Bahai writings fleetingly quote some passages of Paul's writings as and when it's nice. Effendi quotes his verse from first Corinthians and correlates it to Bahaullah's small piece of writing from the kithabul iqan as if it makes a big impact for the chapter called "Great Resurrection" (As I remember the chapter name). That's how the Bahai's quote Paul. Cherry picked to suit a confirmation bias.

One could say that Muhammad quotes verses from the Bible to suit an agenda as well.

It is just the same old accusations made against every Messenger, who will clarify previous misunderstandings, using those scriptures.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It works as the One God allows me to embrace your choice and live with you in Love and Peace.

What will be your choice in allowing that?

Regards Tony

You know I've heard Christians say that they love the sinner but hate the sin. I think it's more like that with Baha'is. I don't see how they can truly "embrace" a religion when they believe that religion is wrong. However, they can love the person that believes in that religion.

Now the next problem... What if both religions teach that their people should go out and teach and preach the "truth" of their religion? And it happens here all the time. A Born Again Christian is telling a Baha'i about their belief about Jesus, and the Baha'i is doesn't belief the way that the Christian is interpreting their Scriptures is correct. So, the Baha'i tries to tell them the true interpretation based on Baha'i teachings, and tells the Christian how Baha'u'llah is actually the return of Christ.

Neither is embracing anything that the other is saying. How do you, as a Baha'i, truly love them? And not just saying it, but showing it?

Then the same thing with Baha'is and an Atheist. A Baha'i is not going to "embrace" the things believed by the Atheist. They don't believe in your God and don't believe your prophet came from God. So, how do the Baha'i still love them... and show that love?

Whatever Baha'is might think they're doing here, I don't think they've really shown love. But... what do you think? Do you feel like you and other Baha'is have shown love? That Baha'is have reached out in love and friendship? Have shown kindness, respect and understanding of where the Atheist is coming from?

 

[CG Didymus]

One could say that Muhammad quotes verses from the Bible to suit an agenda as well.

It is just the same old accusations made against every Messenger, who will clarify previous misunderstandings, using those scriptures.

Regards Tony

I'm going to go with a Baha'i doing this. When a Baha'is tells a Christian that the trinity is not true is a lot different than telling a Christian that Jesus didn't rise from the dead.

With the one, it is the Christians interpreting of a few verses that make it sound like Jesus is one with God or is God. Yeah, maybe their interpretation is wrong.

The other it's the Baha'is interpreting the whole story of Jesus coming back to life as not literal, but symbolic. It's not just a few verses, and it's in all four Gospels. This is way different. Baha'is are taking a story that is written in exactly the same way that the Gospel writers have written about other things that Jesus did. It's not written in a "symbolic" way... like it's a parable or metaphor or something.

Now you might believe the story isn't literally true, but for most Christian, the resurrection story is a very important part of their beliefs. Of course they are going to accuse Baha'is of distorting the Scriptures.

And this shows that even Baha'is don't accept, embrace or believe in the Scriptures the way most Christians believe them. So, what is it the Baha'is really do? When it comes to the other religions?

I think all Baha'is can say is that they interpret those Scriptures differently and do not "embrace" the way most Christians do.

Now is there a way that you can explain it that shows that you do accept and embrace the other religions? That is... the way they are believed and practiced by the believers in that religion?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Whatever Baha'is might think they're doing here, I don't think they've really shown love. But... what do you think? Do you feel like you and other Baha'is have shown love? That Baha'is have reached out in love and friendship? Have shown kindness, respect and understanding of where the Atheist is coming from?

Most likely have not shown the required Love, that Abdu'l-Baha would have shown.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Most likely have not shown the required Love, that Abdu'l-Baha would have shown.

Regards Tony

Well, just theoretically, how should a Baha'i show love and respect and acceptance to Atheists? People who don't believe that your God is real?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, just theoretically, how should a Baha'i show love and respect and acceptance to Atheists? People who don't believe that your God is real?

Well Abdul'baha offers.

“… no matter to what religion a man belongs, even though he be an atheist or materialist, nevertheless, God nurtures him, bestows His kindness and sheds upon him His light....”

"....inasmuch as God is the one heavenly Shepherd and all mankind are the sheep of His fold, the religion or guidance of God must be the means of love and fellowship in the world. If religion proves to be the source of hatred, enmity and contention, if it becomes the cause of warfare and strife and influences men to kill each other, its absence is preferable. For that which is productive of hatred amongst the people is rejected by God, and that which establishes fellowship is beloved and sanctioned by Him. Religion and divine teachings are like unto a remedy..."

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

With the elephant metaphor the blind men couldn't see the whole elephant, but they did physically feel the elephant.

With the invisible and unknowable God of the Baha'is, people are dependent on what the Baha'i Faith tells them about God.

Then the Baha'i Faith tells people what was really meant by the things said in the other religions.

Before the Baha'i Faith, there wasn't enough of that. Sure, Muhammad said that Jesus was not God. But did he clarify anything about Satan and hell?

The closest I can come to agreeing with Baha'is is to say that religions and religious thinking have evolved. But that's still a lot different than what Baha'is believe that it was a progression from one religion to the next.

For one religion to believe in karma and reincarnation is not them touching a part of the elephant. It's a different belief. It's how those people explain things.

Contrast that with Born Again Christians that believe we are all hopelessly lost sinners that can't do anything to save ourselves... But are dependent on Jesus. And only was qualified to pay the sin debt owed to God. They come up with how sin entered the world. And how the Law of Moses exposed the impossibility of anybody ever being able to be good enough to perfectly obey God's laws. All have fallen short. Then those that don't accept the free gift of salvation are condemned to hell. Those that accept it, even though they aren't perfect, they get to go to heaven because of Jesus' sacrifice.

Both religions have everything figured out, but neither one agrees with what Baha'is belief. That is not a progression.

According to the Baha'is, both of those religions are wrong. In the elephant metaphor, the blind men didn't know what the complete elephant looked like. But the part of the elephant they were touching was at least real and part of the whole animal.

And again, I'm not any sort of religious scholar and I can see holes in the beliefs and claims of the Baha'i Faith. Just white washing over them with a Baha'i interpretation doesn't make them go away.

We are all blind when it comes to God theist and atheist alike. But what we can and do see is each other and the Manifestations come mainly to help us establish good relationships with each other whether it be races, nations or religions. So accepting one another unconditionally as fellow humans is what’s next in our spiritual evolution. There is, as we see, so much hurt, suffering and torment inflicted on people when they don’t get along and start killing each other as in wars. The Manifestations can only appeal to us but in the end it’s up to us to see humanity in every person not just our group.

The message for this day is to accept all humanity as our family. Until we do this wars and suffering will continue and sadness and unhappiness will be everywhere. There are no sides. All are humans. All belong to the one human family. This is why Baha’u’llah came to promote the oneness of humanity.

 

[Muffled]

You are wrong. There is no evidence of that. Can you show me evidence????

He wote that there was no such thing as reincarnation. No prophet of God could make a false statment like that. As far as I know he never did any miracles and never predicted the future. All he does is make a claim and any idiot can do that.

 

[Muffled]

Well Abdul'baha offers.

“… no matter to what religion a man belongs, even though he be an atheist or materialist, nevertheless, God nurtures him, bestows His kindness and sheds upon him His light....”

"....inasmuch as God is the one heavenly Shepherd and all mankind are the sheep of His fold, the religion or guidance of God must be the means of love and fellowship in the world. If religion proves to be the source of hatred, enmity and contention, if it becomes the cause of warfare and strife and influences men to kill each other, its absence is preferable. For that which is productive of hatred amongst the people is rejected by God, and that which establishes fellowship is beloved and sanctioned by Him. Religion and divine teachings are like unto a remedy..."

Regards Tony

A good philosophy and already in the Bible.

 

[firedragon]

He wote that there was no such thing as reincarnation. No prophet of God could make a false statment like that. As far as I know he never did any miracles and never predicted the future. All he does is make a claim and any idiot can do that.

A statement is not evidence.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The Prophets, Educators or Manifestations all had one main purpose which was to rejuvenate us spiritually. They gave some social and administrative laws but mostly focused on virtues and becoming spiritually aware. When they spoke of rebirth it was spiritual rebirth, that is, to be spiritually awakened. For example when Christ said “let the dead bury the dead” He was referring to the spiritually dead burying the physically dead and some new translations show this. And then there is the guy who when Christ said we must be born again commented ‘what, do I have to reenter my mother’s womb? Many of the stories in scriptures such as the flood, 7 days of creation, Adam and Eve, the Red Sea crossing etc have a moral to learn and were not actual events. But many people have become superstitious and literally believe these things actually happened.

Whenever a new Manifestation arises He usually throws some light on some of these stories. For example, Baha’u’llah said that Noah’s Ark represented the Ark of God’s Faith and the flood non believers drowned in was the rain of ‘confusion’ while those who believed knew the truth and we see how today confusion has enveloped the world and people are drowning in it as it was stated that the days of Noah would be repeated. There is no certainty in the world which path is the right one anymore except amongst those who know whoever they might be in this age while the rest drown in confusion.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Prophets, Educators or Manifestations all had one main purpose which was to rejuvenate us spiritually. They gave some social and administrative laws but mostly focused on virtues and becoming spiritually aware. When they spoke of rebirth it was spiritual rebirth, that is, to be spiritually awakened. For example when Christ said “let the dead bury the dead” He was referring to the spiritually dead burying the physically dead and some new translations show this. And then there is the guy who when Christ said we must be born again commented ‘what, do I have to reenter my mother’s womb? Many of the stories in scriptures such as the flood, 7 days of creation, Adam and Eve, the Red Sea crossing etc have a moral to learn and were not actual events. But many people have become superstitious and literally believe these things actually happened.

Whenever a new Manifestation arises He usually throws some light on some of these stories. For example, Baha’u’llah said that Noah’s Ark represented the Ark of God’s Faith and the flood non believers drowned in was the rain of ‘confusion’ while those who believed knew the truth and we see how today confusion has enveloped the world and people are drowning in it as it was stated that the days of Noah would be repeated. There is no certainty in the world which path is the right one anymore except amongst those who know whoever they might be in this age while the rest drown in confusion.

Why I disagree with that. Since all those things were told as actual events, I think they were myth. However, I believe that when they were told, they were told as true, actual events. And the religious leaders then, and even some religious leaders today, makes sure that the people take them as being actual, historical events.

But those same religious leaders do take some stories as symbolic... the parables or some prophecies. But, as with the parables, it is clearly told that way... as a fictional story that has some kind of spiritual lesson in it.

The other problem is... If you're going to start coming up with symbolic interpretations of Genesis, rather then taking it literally, when are you going to stop taking things symbolically? It's a continual story... starting with creation and Adam and Eve on to Noah... it gets to Abraham and ends with Joseph in Egypt. All of it is symbolic?

Or... What's wrong with believing they are just a bunch of made up myths and legends about a people and their God?

But that's not a position Baha'is can take. And taking the stories literally isn't a position Baha'is can take. The only thing that works with Baha'is is to take all those stories as being symbolic. Except Baha'is don't take all the weird stories symbolically... There is the virgin birth story.

Why, out of all those strange Bible stories, that Baha'is believe the virgin birth, of all things, is an actual, historical event? Why?

 

[CG Didymus]

the rest drown in confusion.

So who, other than Baha'is are not "drowning" in confusion? Which is why I don't believe that Baha'is truly accept the other religions. Baha'is believe that they don't believe them correctly. What Baha'is are "accepting" is their own interpretation of those other religions. Baha'is are not accepting them as believed by the followers in those other religions.

I'm sure some of us can come up with our own version of the Baha'i Faith that would be acceptable to us. But it wouldn't be the Baha'i Faith that you believe in.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Why I disagree with that. Since all those things were told as actual events, I think they were myth. However, I believe that when they were told, they were told as true, actual events. And the religious leaders then, and even some religious leaders today, makes sure that the people take them as being actual, historical events.

But those same religious leaders do take some stories as symbolic... the parables or some prophecies. But, as with the parables, it is clearly told that way... as a fictional story that has some kind of spiritual lesson in it.

The other problem is... If you're going to start coming up with symbolic interpretations of Genesis, rather then taking it literally, when are you going to stop taking things symbolically? It's a continual story... starting with creation and Adam and Eve on to Noah... it gets to Abraham and ends with Joseph in Egypt. All of it is symbolic?

Or... What's wrong with believing they are just a bunch of made up myths and legends about a people and their God?

But that's not a position Baha'is can take. And taking the stories literally isn't a position Baha'is can take. The only thing that works with Baha'is is to take all those stories as being symbolic. Except Baha'is don't take all the weird stories symbolically... There is the virgin birth story.

Why, out of all those strange Bible stories, that Baha'is believe the virgin birth, of all things, is an actual, historical event? Why?

The Manifestations role is an educative one so they use stories to convey inner truths according to the capacity and culture of the people at the time. Even some of these stories understood literally still teach a lesson or moral. For example those who ignored the call of Noah and refused to turn to God and enter the Ark died. So to turn away from God has bad consequences. Only death here is understood by Baha’is as spiritual death as we all must die physically.

So even literally these stories can teach good lessons.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So who, other than Baha'is are not "drowning" in confusion? Which is why I don't believe that Baha'is truly accept the other religions. Baha'is believe that they don't believe them correctly. What Baha'is are "accepting" is their own interpretation of those other religions. Baha'is are not accepting them as believed by the followers in those other religions.

I'm sure some of us can come up with our own version of the Baha'i Faith that would be acceptable to us. But it wouldn't be the Baha'i Faith that you believe in.

Baha’u’llah we believe has full authority to make these interpretations as a Manifestation of God. Yes in every age there is a period of confusion until the new Manifestation becomes widely accepted. Today it’s the same.

Baha’is believe in the basic foundation of each religion. That is, the Manifestation or Educator and His scriptures.

So we believe in Moses and the Torah, Christ and the Gospels, Muhammad and the Quran, Krishna and the Bhagavad-Gita and Buddha and the Dhammapada as well as the Eightfold Path and Four Noble Truths. We also read from these scriptures in our Houses of Worship in services weekly all over the world. But we have no sermons or priests and do not follow individual interpretations as they are not part of the religion.

Baha’u’llah has shown that His interpretations have been able to unite all religions into one world community at peace and in harmony with one another.

When I sit together with Baha’is from Christian, Muslim, Buddhist and Hindu background all united in peace with one another I see a glimpse of a future world free of conflict and a place of happiness and prosperity.

Baha’u’llah‘s teachings are gradually bringing a new consciousness to humanity that we are all one family. It will take time to break down the barriers which divide us but the old interpretations and beliefs are not working and in need of a fresh understanding and Baha’u’llah has brought this remedy which over time will resuscitate the fortunes of humanity.

 

[Vinayaka]

So who, other than Baha'is are not "drowning" in confusion? Which is why I don't believe that Baha'is truly accept the other religions. Baha'is believe that they don't believe them correctly. What Baha'is are "accepting" is their own interpretation of those other religions. Baha'is are not accepting them as believed by the followers in those other religions.

I'm sure some of us can come up with our own version of the Baha'i Faith that would be acceptable to us. But it wouldn't be the Baha'i Faith that you believe in.

Many many people and groups of people on this planet already accept other religions and non-religions AS IS.