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What if we accepted each others Religion?

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Many many people and groups of people on this planet already accept other religions and non-religions AS IS.
As you know I argue mainly with Baha'is, because they claim their prophet is Kalki, is Maitreya, is the Christ, and Mahdi, and the Messiah etc.

And I know they don't accept the other religions. They believe all of them have messed something up... Especially a religion like Christianity.

So, I'm questioning their honestly... What is it that they do accept and embrace of any of the other religions?

I think the only reason they want others to accept all the other religions is so those same people will then accept them, the Baha'is, also. Then once accepted, the next step for the Baha'is would be to show them how the Baha'i prophet supposedly fulfilled all the prophecies of their religion, and is therefore, the promised one that they have been waiting for.

So, there is a big difference between those religions that accept the others, and those that say they accept them with the ultimate goal of converting them. And I believe that is the goal of the Baha'i Faith, because they don't believe any other religion has the teachings that can bring peace and unity. Making goal one... to show how all religions were a stepping stone to the next one. Which leads them in showing how the Baha'i Faith is the next one in the progression. Once that is accomplished, there is no need for any of the older religions.

I know you don't like quotes, but here's a quote that I believe backs up what I'm saying.

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah fulfills those expectations for every great Faith – and for the first time in history, Baha’u’llah has made that remarkable claim to the followers of all religions. Baha’u’llah’s mission — to unite all people in one common faith – has made the Baha’i Faith one of the most widespread belief systems on Earth. Baha’u’llah writes:​
That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. – Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 255.
Indeed, Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, Jews, Muslims, and many others have found the ultimate purpose of their religion realized in the Baha’i Faith.​
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
As you know I argue mainly with Baha'is, because they claim their prophet is Kalki, is Maitreya, is the Christ, and Mahdi, and the Messiah etc.

And I know they don't accept the other religions. They believe all of them have messed something up... Especially a religion like Christianity.

So, I'm questioning their honestly... What is it that they do accept and embrace of any of the other religions?

I think the only reason they want others to accept all the other religions is so those same people will then accept them, the Baha'is, also. Then once accepted, the next step for the Baha'is would be to show them how the Baha'i prophet supposedly fulfilled all the prophecies of their religion, and is therefore, the promised one that they have been waiting for.

So, there is a big difference between those religions that accept the others, and those that say they accept them with the ultimate goal of converting them. And I believe that is the goal of the Baha'i Faith, because they don't believe any other religion has the teachings that can bring peace and unity. Making goal one... to show how all religions were a stepping stone to the next one. Which leads them in showing how the Baha'i Faith is the next one in the progression. Once that is accomplished, there is no need for any of the older religions.

I know you don't like quotes, but here's a quote that I believe backs up what I'm saying.

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah fulfills those expectations for every great Faith – and for the first time in history, Baha’u’llah has made that remarkable claim to the followers of all religions. Baha’u’llah’s mission — to unite all people in one common faith – has made the Baha’i Faith one of the most widespread belief systems on Earth. Baha’u’llah writes:​

Indeed, Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, Jews, Muslims, and many others have found the ultimate purpose of their religion realized in the Baha’i Faith.​
I don't know how you have had the patience all these years to continue, having seen no movement whatsoever. Are you doing it for the sake of readers who might happen by, so they don't get duped?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Manifestations role is an educative one so they use stories to convey inner truths according to the capacity and culture of the people at the time. Even some of these stories understood literally still teach a lesson or moral. For example those who ignored the call of Noah and refused to turn to God and enter the Ark died. So to turn away from God has bad consequences. Only death here is understood by Baha’is as spiritual death as we all must die physically.

So even literally these stories can teach good lessons.
The "manifestation" did tell those stories. Jesus didn't tell the story about how he died and came back to life. Noah didn't tell the story of how he built the Ark. Adam didn't tell the story about creation and about how he disobeyed God.

I entered "Parables in the Bible" and this is what came up...

Jesus was a storyteller. The stories and illustrations He told were called parables and there is something unique about them that made them stand out.​
Throughout the more than 40 parables that Jesus taught throughout the Bible....​
It didn't show any other than those told by Jesus. And we know they were parables. Creation was not a parable. The flood was not a parable. The resurrection was not a parable. Now if you say they were fiction, a myth, and nothing but made up stories, I'd agree.

But when the gospel writers were telling about events, they were supposedly telling us about how things went down. They were not speaking in parables. Embellishing the story a little with a few miracles? Sure. They wanted to make Jesus appear like he was a God.

And here's a parable-like story from the Hebrew Bible...

2 Samuel 12:1 The Lord sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, “There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. 2The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, 3but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him.​
4“Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him.”​
5David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, “As surely as the Lord lives, the man who did this must die! 6He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity.”​
7Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’​
11“This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. 12You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’ ”​
13Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”​
It is clear. It is obvious. But what David had done is not a parable. It is supposedly the truth about what had really happened. But, for a Baha'i, to be consistent, wouldn't they have to make that a parable also?

And here's the story of Noah...

Genesis 6:9 This is the account of Noah and his family...​
11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark...​

Then the flood happens. And, in the next chapter, after the flood, this is how it starts...

10 This is the account of Shem, Ham and Japheth, Noah’s sons, who themselves had sons after the flood.​
It's a continuing story. It's not a parable. A myth? I think so. But why can't Baha'is say that? If it's a myth, Baha'is could still come up with their "symbolic" interpretations. So, what's wrong with that?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I don't know how you have had the patience all these years to continue, having seen no movement whatsoever. Are you doing it for the sake of readers who might happen by, so they don't get duped?
Yes... Because I fell for their claims. And the only thing that "saved" me... was falling for even weirder claims, the claims of Evangelical Christianity. I was so spiritually gullible and believed people were telling me the truth. Now I find it hard to trust any religious person... That is the ones that go out and push their beliefs on others.

Now if they could prove their claims, that would be different. But it's a stretch getting Christianity to fit into their belief of a "progressive" revelation. But then to try and get the Dharmic religions in there? That takes of a lot manipulating.

If they didn't try and do those things, making all the other religions fit into their beliefs, I think they'd be better off... and have wider appeal. You know, just let the other religions exist as alternative, legitimate spiritual paths.

But they can't. They have to proselytize, or "teach" what they believe is the truth, and convert people to believe they are the one true religion for today, and the only religion that can solve the world's problems.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
As you know I argue mainly with Baha'is, because they claim their prophet is Kalki, is Maitreya, is the Christ, and Mahdi, and the Messiah etc.

And I know they don't accept the other religions. They believe all of them have messed something up... Especially a religion like Christianity.

So, I'm questioning their honestly... What is it that they do accept and embrace of any of the other religions?
What is the true meaning of accept?

to agree to take something, or to consider something as satisfactory, reasonable, or true: She accepted the job offer. He was accused of accepting bribes. Do you accept credit cards? He refuses to accept the fact that he could be wrong.
ACCEPT | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

- Baha'is do not agree to take other religions but the same could be said of any religious follower. They only take their own religion.

- Baha'is do not consider the older religions satisfactory since we believe that they were revealed by God for past ages, not for this age. That means that those religions are missing something that is vital for this age.

- Baha'is do not consider some of the teachings of the older religions to be reasonable; e.g. that Jesus is God, that Jesus is the only way, that Jesus rose from the dead.

- Bahais do believe that the spiritual teachings of all the major religions are true, but we do not believe that the primary message of the older religions is the message that humanity needs in this age. We also do not believe that the social teachings and laws of the older religions are pertinent for this age.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”

All the religions that were revealed by God contain spiritual guidance and teachings that endure through history for the spiritual guidance of humanity, but the ancient religions are cloaked in the culture over the millennia, lack original scripture, and have been subject to highly variable interpretation of the many divisions over time.

The teachings and laws of the older religions have been renewed by the Baha'i teachings and laws that conform to the needs of the fast evolving and constantly changing society we now live in, and a new message of universal peace and world unity has been delivered.
I think the only reason they want others to accept all the other religions is so those same people will then accept them, the Baha'is, also. Then once accepted, the next step for the Baha'is would be to show them how the Baha'i prophet supposedly fulfilled all the prophecies of their religion, and is therefore, the promised one that they have been waiting for.
As I have told you repeatedly, Baha'is do not want anyone to accept anything.
Just because we share our beliefs that does not mean we want or expect others to accept them.

@TransmutingSoul has told you the same thing, over and over and over.
Faith has to be a personal choice......
“For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.”
So, there is a big difference between those religions that accept the others, and those that say they accept them with the ultimate goal of converting them. And I believe that is the goal of the Baha'i Faith,
As I have told you repeatedly, converting people is not the ultimate goal of the Bahai Faith. It is not a goal at all.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If they didn't try and do those things, making all the other religions fit into their beliefs, I think they'd be better off... and have wider appeal.
Baha'is do not try to make any of the other religions fit into their beliefs.
You are the who is trying to make all the other religions fit into the Baha'i Faith.

It is really sad that you cannot see that after all these years.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Many many people and groups of people on this planet already accept other religions and non-religions AS IS.
How do we structure that acceptance into a global community, where every human being has the right to tye basic necessitates of life?

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Baha'is do not try to make any of the other religions fit into their beliefs.
You are the who is trying to make all the other religions fit into the Baha'i Faith.

It is really sad that you cannot see that after all these years.
The same way the Old Testament is embraced in New Testament, the same way the Old and New Testament are embraced in the Quran, the Old, New Testament and Koran are embraced in the Baha'i Writings.

In this age the Baha'i Writings show us a wider embracing acceptance, all the previous Words of God are in fact embraced in the Baha'i Writings.

We do not have to make fit, what is already and essential part of the Message given of God.

None of that means that a Baha'i has to embrace the practices and man made doctrine of past dispensations, it means we have to embrace the Essence of those Messages that are now reflected in the Message given by the Bab and Baha'u'llah and as explained by Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi.

A good example is that of the decadence of the of modern age where trustworthiness, truthfulness and the morality of the marriage bond have been forgotten by adherents of God given Faiths. (I worded that so Baha'i are inclusive in that statement)

Baha'u'llah renewed the requirements for a virtues filled way of life.

@CG Didymus

Regards Tony
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Many many people and groups of people on this planet already accept other religions and non-religions AS IS.
I also thought, As Is Is offering acceptance of even the people, who, driven by misunderstandings of their own faith, choose to persecute, destroy and concur other peoples?

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
the only religion that can solve the world's problems
Who else is calling all humanity to be as One People on One planet and suggesting a way to acheive this, in a unity of our diversity?

The suggested path to unity, is not calling everyone to be a Baha'i, so you post is incorrect, as many of your replies reflect your own doubts and misconceptions and not of what is being offered by the Baha'i Writings for the Lesser Peace.

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Ther same way the Old Testament is embraced in New Testament, the same way the Old and New Testament are embraced in the Quran, the Old, new and Koran are embraced in the Baha'i Writings.

In this age the Baha'i Writings show us a wider embracing acceptance, all the previous Words of God are in fact embraced in the Baha'i Writings.

We do not have to make fit, what is already and essential part of the Message given of God.

None of that means that a Baha'i has to embrace the practices and man made doctrine of past dispensations, it means we have to embrace the Essence of those Messages that are now reflected in the Message given by the Bab and Baha'u'llah and as explained by Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi.

A good example is that of the decadence of the of modern age where trustworthiness, truthfulness and the morality of the marriage bond have been forgotten by adherents of God given Faiths. (I worded that so Baha'i are inclusive in that statement)

Baha'u'llah renewed the requirements for a virtues filled way of life.

Regards Tony
I hope @CG Didymus will read what you wrote and understand what you are saying, because I care about him even if he doesn't like me.
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As I have told you repeatedly, converting people is not the ultimate goal of the Bahai Faith. It is not a goal at all.
It's certainly a goal of the (Haifan) Baha'i faith in my view, eg consider this from Shoghi Effendi - Guardian of the (Haifan) Baha'i Faith;

'I appeal particularly to its dearly beloved members belonging to the Negro race to participate in the contemplated project marking a significant milestone in the world-unfoldment of the Faith, supplementing the work initiated fifty years ago on the North American continent, forging fresh links binding the American, British and Egyptian Communities and providing the prelude to the full-scale operations destined to be launched at a later period of the unfoldment of the Divine Plan aiming at the conversion of the backward, oppressed masses of the swiftly awakening continent.'

Source: Search – Authoritative Writings and Guidance | Bahá’í Reference Library
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I hope @CG Didymus will read what you wrote and understand what you are saying, because I care about him even if he doesn't like me.
I edited some spelling and wording and included a notification.

I know you would as well, so, we care for all those on RF, every single person that has graced the pages of RF. We ask for them one and all, what we would ask for our own selves, and ask for them more.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
It's certainly a goal of the (Haifan) Baha'i faith in my view, eg consider this from Shoghi Effendi - Guardian of the (Haifan) Baha'i Faith;

'I appeal particularly to its dearly beloved members belonging to the Negro race to participate in the contemplated project marking a significant milestone in the world-unfoldment of the Faith, supplementing the work initiated fifty years ago on the North American continent, forging fresh links binding the American, British and Egyptian Communities and providing the prelude to the full-scale operations destined to be launched at a later period of the unfoldment of the Divine Plan aiming at the conversion of the backward, oppressed masses of the swiftly awakening continent.'

Source: Search – Authoritative Writings and Guidance | Bahá’í Reference Library
There was a far greater need behind that request, the need for the awareness of the oneness of humanity. That age passed and unfortunately many Baha'i did not respond to the request, but a sufficient number did that cemented the foundations of the Baha'i World Faith.

Subsequently the failure of Baha'i to act in an age where if they had, people would chosen for themselves to walk a new path, gave way to a time when the numbers of Baha'i has become less important, subservient to what is now more urgently needed.

What is now urgently needed is the unity of humanity at the grass root levels. A unity in our diversity is needed. So people are needed with the capacity of embracing the oneness of humanity and a willingness for establishing a global community. That is what is needed, that is what the Baha'i are promoting.

No one reading this is being called on to be a Baha'i, but people are still ignorant of the Oneness of humanity, the urgent requirement for a lush towards global cooperation by establishing a federation of Nations.

Regards Tony
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's certainly a goal of the (Haifan) Baha'i faith in my view, eg consider this from Shoghi Effendi - Guardian of the (Haifan) Baha'i Faith;

'I appeal particularly to its dearly beloved members belonging to the Negro race to participate in the contemplated project marking a significant milestone in the world-unfoldment of the Faith, supplementing the work initiated fifty years ago on the North American continent, forging fresh links binding the American, British and Egyptian Communities and providing the prelude to the full-scale operations destined to be launched at a later period of the unfoldment of the Divine Plan aiming at the conversion of the backward, oppressed masses of the swiftly awakening continent.'

Source: Search – Authoritative Writings and Guidance | Bahá’í Reference Library
You have her. However, it is more along the lines of people being told about the Baha'i Faith, then investigating it if they want to ideally.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It's certainly a goal of the (Haifan) Baha'i faith in my view, eg consider this from Shoghi Effendi - Guardian of the (Haifan) Baha'i Faith;

'I appeal particularly to its dearly beloved members belonging to the Negro race to participate in the contemplated project marking a significant milestone in the world-unfoldment of the Faith, supplementing the work initiated fifty years ago on the North American continent, forging fresh links binding the American, British and Egyptian Communities and providing the prelude to the full-scale operations destined to be launched at a later period of the unfoldment of the Divine Plan aiming at the conversion of the backward, oppressed masses of the swiftly awakening continent.'

Source: Search – Authoritative Writings and Guidance | Bahá’í Reference Library
Think about when that was written, about 75 years ago. The goals of the Baha'i Faith have shifted a lot since then.
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There was a far greater need behind that request, the need for the awareness of the oneness of humanity. That age passed and unfortunately many Baha'i did not respond to the request, but a sufficient number did that cemented the foundations of the Baha'i World Faith.

Subsequently the failure of Baha'i to act in an age where if they had, people would chosen for themselves to walk a new path, gave way to a time when the numbers of Baha'i has become less important, subservient to what is now more urgently needed.

What is now urgently needed is the unity of humanity at the grass root levels. A unity in our diversity is needed. So people are needed with the capacity of embracing the oneness of humanity and a willingness for establishing a global community. That is what is needed, that is what the Baha'i are promoting.

No one reading this is being called on to be a Baha'i, but people are still ignorant of the Oneness of humanity, the urgent requirement for a lush towards global cooperation by establishing a federation of Nations.

Regards Tony
Having greater goals and lesser goals does not make the lesser goals non goals in my view.
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Think about when that was written, about 75 years ago. The goals of the Baha'i Faith have shifted a lot since then.
You as a heterodox member of the Baha'i faith do not speak for the goals of the mainstream (Haifan) community in my view.

Can you show any current literature from the (Haifan) Universal House of Justice unambiguously demonstrating that the goal of the "Most Great Peace" in which all are to be united in, "one common faith" has been abandoned?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The same way the Old Testament is embraced in New Testament, the same way the Old and New Testament are embraced in the Quran, the Old, New Testament and Koran are embraced in the Baha'i Writings.
Yes, I believe you are right. "Old" Testament was essentially abandoned by the new improved teachings of Christianity. None of whose Scriptures were written by Jesus, and a whole lot of it written by Paul.

The old religion isn't being accepted... it's being replaced... Discarded... made a relic of the past.

But... by the previous religion, the newer one is seen to be a false religion.

But here's an ex-Baha'i talking about teaching...

THE FALSE FRONT
The Baha’i Faith, in its public presentations, emphasizes the more broad and tolerant aspects of Baha’u’llah’s teachings. The itself is not dishonest, since those liberal teachings are actually present in Baha’i scripture, and historically, converts into the Faith have been from among more open-minded and educated people. However, these free-spirited seekers often do not find out about the more authoritarian and exclusive aspects of Baha’i thought until after they have enrolled.​
There are a few things commonly told to converts that can hardly be seen as anything other than deceptions. (To be fair, however, Baha’is often convince themselves that they are true.) One example is that the public is told that Baha’is do not proselytize; they merely teach the Faith as long as a person is interested. However, the new believer soon discovers that community life is centered around the need to gain new converts, and finds himself pressured into “teaching” plans and projects. So a person who has perhaps always held a dim view of those who try to push their religious beliefs on others now must participate in exactly that type of activity. It is hardly surprising that some of them decide that they’ve made a mistake.
One convert who rapidly left after discovering this called the Baha’i Faith “the Amway of religions.” Another more bluntly said “No proselytizing, my rear end!”
I went on Baha'i teaching trips to Indian Reservations in Arizona, Montana, Idaho, Oregon and Washington. The purpose was to "teach" the Faith and, hopefully, get some of the people to become Baha'is. Or, in other words, convert.

I even looked up "proselytizing" and it wasn't that bad. It didn't say that it needed to include force to be called "proselytizing". Trying to convert people or just promoting Baha'i beliefs seems to fit the definition. But we can still call it "teach" if you want.

So, then, what is the long term goal of teaching? If it's not to get people to know the basics about the Faith and to get some of them to become Baha'is?

Why this is such a touching subject for Baha'is, I don't know. Actually, I think I do know. They don't want to be known as a religion that pushes their beliefs on others. But what are Baha'is doing here? Even if it as gentle as can be, it's still pushing people towards knowing about the Baha'i Faith, and maybe, someday convert.

But how "gentle" is it when Baha'is tell people that we are heading for disaster... all because the world has, essentially, rejected Baha'u'llah?

What would you think of someone shouting on a street corner...

"You are all doomed. You all have rejected the Promised One. We could have had peace and unity in the world if only we all had accepted him and followed him. His teachings are the only hope for the world. His teachings are the medicine that will cure the ills of this sick world. But alas, no one cares. No one will listen."

Maybe not you, but lots of people would think he's a crack pot. But what if the person saying the same thing is speaking softly and changing some of the language to make it not so forceful. Maybe something like this...

"Unfortunately, I'm afraid the world is going to have to go through terrible times before people wake up... And come to realize we could have peace and unity right now... If we all turned to the truth in the message of the Promised One. His teachings are our only hope for turning this around. The Old World order is crumbling around us. We don't have to go down with that sinking ship. There is a New World order is being unfurled. People of peace... Lovers of peace and unity are working now... Building the foundation of that Kingdom of God on Earth... That New World Order. I'd ask you to be part of it and join us, but that is not our way. We want you to read for yourselves what the Promised One said. See if it rings true with not only your heart but your head also. The truth has to be sensible, practical and workable. It can't be just some pie-in-the-sky religious idealism. Study his teachings. See if you agree with them. Then and only then think about joining us."

Maybe even with that, a Baha'is would be even more subtle. But "teaching" is giving people a nudge, a slight push to at least investigate the Baha'i Faith with the hope they someday convert.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Having greater goals and lesser goals does not make the lesser goals non goals in my view.
We are all ignorant of what people will choose for their own selves in the future. The greater goal is a prediction of the fruits of the teachings of Baha'u'llah. Having a vision of what can be, enables us to live that unity now amongst a very divided and fractured world, amongst a vast majority that fear change, change that is now very obviously inevitable.

We are constantly working towards the greater goal, as have been Christians and Muslims.

It lays within acceptance of all of humanity as one people on one planet.

Regards Tony
 
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