What is Happening in Our Schools?

[ADigitalArtist]

Specifically if it was because they lacked a balanced male female influence in their home.

Then I would definitely reevaluate my views on the significance of gender roles in parenting. But so far nothing has suggested that such a thing is necessary for healthy child upbringing or otherwise isn't obtained outside parent relationships.

 

[suncowiam]

Actually, Jesus states in Matt 19:12 that men with no junk (eunuchs) can be born that way, made that way, or volunteer that way and we should deal with it. But it's not like Christians care about what Jesus thought. Even before he died, he complained his apostles were morons who didn't get the point of the "Way".
edit: there was a study about religion and bullying, sorta:
http://news.berkeley.edu/2012/04/30/religionandgenerosity/

Thank you for clarifying that. I should have said:
"Only your interpretation of the Bible suggests Homosexuality and Transgendered is wrong."

Interesting study too. The first line summarized everything. "LOVE THY NEIGHBOR" with a caveat of course.

 

[Thanda]

Then I would definitely reevaluate my views on the significance of gender roles in parenting. But so far nothing has suggested that such a thing is necessary for healthy child upbringing or otherwise isn't obtained outside parent relationships.

Sure.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Actually, Jesus states in Matt 19:12 that men with no junk (eunuchs) can be born that way, made that way, or volunteer that way and we should deal with it. But it's not like Christians care about what Jesus thought. Even before he died, he complained his apostles were morons who didn't get the point of the "Way".
edit: there was a study about religion and bullying, sorta:
http://news.berkeley.edu/2012/04/30/religionandgenerosity/

Something that I sometimes remind myself of to help cheer me up is that I "follow the Devil," yet I am so much more Christlike than the bulk, vast, super majority of Christians I meet. Even LaVey's Satanic Bibles are far more Christlike than the ways of the biggest part of the flock of Christians. It also makes me laugh thinking that when Jesus goes to gather his flock, he's not going to have anytime to go for stragglers (who are following him anyways) because he's going to be so busy punishing the flock that he probably won't even be surprised any longer at the times people have done in his name that he just won't even phase or blink by the time he gets to the sheep name Hitler.

 

[Etritonakin]

Obviously, it is.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ay-what-do-scientists-say-about-origins-bein/



It indeed does have a genetic basis.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ay-what-do-scientists-say-about-origins-bein/



We are still indoctrinating them with the values and other things we have deemed important. School, by it's vary nature, plays a major role in developing people, their views, and instilling cultural norms and values. It's not indoctrination as applies to religion, but very much so to the point of preparing students for an industrial-based economy and future as workers.

There is nothing indoctrinating about that. Just people someone says "I was born gay" does not mean they are trying to do anything more than state their condition.
Or is it indoctrination just when it's something you don't like?

It is based on tolerance and acceptance. It is stating what science confirms, and that is that people do not choose to be homosexual, no more than they choose to be bisexual or heterosexual.

Such as them being denied rights, not allowed to spend their dying partner's final moments in the hospital, being beaten, fired from jobs, evicted from homes?

Feeling free to do so? Why should people not question, challenge, and understand themselves? And how is an environment which is becoming increasing neutral to Conservative political baggage going to hinder this?

The only "BS stance" is the one fighting against equality, tolerance, and acceptance.

The first article actually does not support your argument -and does not represent the whole of "science".

A genetic basis is not the same as homosexuality being purely genetic.


Simple Definition of indoctrinate

• : to teach (someone) to fully accept the ideas, opinions, and beliefs of a particular group and to not consider other ideas, opinions, and beliefs
  
  If you find this happening in schools or anywhere else, I hope you are quite against it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If you find this happening in schools or anywhere else, I hope you are quite against it.

Not exactly that, but we are "processing" or "assimilating" them into the way society is, and the function within certain parameters. Such as how our education system prepares students to sit in an office all day and teaches them how to do just enough to stand in from of a machine pushing buttons and loading pieces all day.

 

[Etritonakin]

Though I actually do believe that same sex attraction may have a genetic or biological basis and be at least partly responsible for same sex attraction is some people, could you express -without referring to that -why homosexuals should be tolerated and accepted -and why religious or any other people are wrong to discriminate against them or treat them unkindly?

If it were found that scientific evidence did not actually show genetics or biology to be the ultimate determining factor in same sex attraction, what would be the basis of the assertion that homosexuals should not be discriminated against or treated unkindly?

If it were absolutely determined that homosexuality was purely a choice, would there not still be reason enough to assert that homosexuals should not be discriminated against or treated unkindly?

There is nothing wrong with considering what causes homosexuality or homosexual behavior, but it would be wise to support a stance against discrimination and unkindness by its own merit rather than political doublespeak or oversimplified and rather gray statements.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

and why religious or any other people are wrong to discriminate against them or treat them unkindly?

Because homosexuals (or anyone) does not deserve to be treated unkindly or discriminated against just for being homosexual.

If it were absolutely determined that homosexuality was purely a choice, would there not still be reason enough to assert that homosexuals should not be discriminated against or treated unkindly?

Again, no.

If it were found that scientific evidence did not actually show genetics or biology to be the ultimate determining factor in same sex attraction, what would be the basis of the assertion that homosexuals should not be discriminated against or treated unkindly?

Not going to happen; no; it makes me wonder why you would even ask such questions.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I find you to be a very agreeable person lewisnotmiller...even when you disagree.

Bah...you're going to ruin my reputation.

My beef is that the gay lobby are gaining strength in many areas and infiltrating our schools. I have no problem with anti-bullying programs as such, what I disagree with is the general consensus that the gay lifestyle is somehow to be embraced and promoted....and even indoctrinated into school children.
I don't want my kids to accept what I believe God condemns. I have a right to say I won't ever support SSM.
And I don't feel bad for saying so.

I tend to think the way to remove the power of the 'gay lobby' is to give them equal treatment and respect. People who have been forced underground can be loud when;
1) they are no longer forced underground
2) they recognize that some others in their situation still are

I don't know what things are like where you live, but teens these days take their boyfriends and girlfriends home for sex under their parents roof. It's becoming an expectation these days. Parents have given up on trying to stop their teens from having sex. That means that STD's are definitely on the increase because the drinking and drug culture among our youth in this country, is guaranteeing that their misspent youth is going to come back to haunt them later.

I understand your view. But only by buying into a 'the world is falling' narrative do I see any relevance between ut and the OP. And I dont buy into that narrative, as you know. Or, perhaps more accurately, the world has always been falling.

Hardly

....but I was thinking more about the values people used to have as an expectation. People gave their word and kept it.

Whilst trite I was quite serious. Racism is a value which was more common. So we've traded please and thank you for increased tolerance of those with different races if we want to get into a comparison of stereotypes. Why do you see one and not the other?

They had standards of common decency that were kept by the majority and people actually cared about their neighbors.

Pleasantville lives! I simply don't see it as you do. I would suggest the carpet under which things were swept was larger, and that if you take the time to peek under it, you might have a more balanced view of the current woes of the world.

This is not a nice world....it has no values, no ethics, no morals. Individuals might still diaplay those things but they becoming rarer and I lament the loss of them.

You accuse me of optimism, but think the world used to display values, ethics and morals? Have you read much history? I mean that seriously, not as an insult.

It would be nice to think that we could make rules and have everyone follow them for the common good, but we know that this is unrealistic these days. People are generally self focused and not really interested in anyone else outside their particular circle. How good would it be if nations could cooperate together for the common good, but if individuals can't achieve this, then nations never will. I see the world going to hell in a hand-basket and people such as yourself expressing this incredible optimism.....when things go from bad to worse, and standards keep falling and human behavior keeps getting worse by the day...where on earth does your optimism come from? Is there some happy weed that leads to a delusion about the future? Human beings have all but taken this planet to the brink and you think they can fix this mess?

'The mess' is life!!

Yet you need standards that are based on the Bible to lead a morally clean life. Immorality always leads to heartbreak...loss of self respect and a feeling of worthlessness.With no respect for themselves, how can people have respect for others?

That is entirely your view, and plenty of others would say exactly the same thing and substitute the Quran. Meanwhile I follow neither, yet apart from my unbelief struggle to see how I am 'immoral' and don't ever seem to have it identified for me. It's enough to make one suspect morality stands apart from scripture, but I know you believe in objective morality so I won't bother arguing the toss with you.

Yes I do, but how many people today take responsibility for anything anymore?

More than the yellow smilie thinks, and less than I'd ideally like.

 

[Etritonakin]

Because homosexuals (or anyone) does not deserve to be treated unkindly or discriminated against just for being homosexual.

Again, no.

Not going to happen; no; it makes me wonder why you would even ask such questions.

Actually, to help decrease discrimination, unkindness, cruelty and violence more effectively -and to help avoid anything which might undermine that goal.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

From what I understand, it's usually up in highly conservative areas where "abstinence" (where we think this will work despite worshipping someone born of a tween virgin) is the main "lesson" they get.

In the States that may be true, but the OP is about an Australian program, and I'm Australian. Mostly, this topic is universal, but it's hard to get Australian statistics on the impact of abstinence education since we simply don't have large bodies of religiously conservative people tied to state-based sex education differences to measure this.

For us, I think there are other explanations, but it would take more time than I'm willing to invest to develop an informed opinion.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

In the States that may be true, but the OP is about an Australian program, and I'm Australian. Mostly, this topic is universal, but it's hard to get Australian statistics on the impact of abstinence education since we simply don't have large bodies of religiously conservative people tied to state-based sex education differences to measure this.

We wouldn't just need statistics, but what is taught as well. Here in America, you can expect our abstinence only programs to compare female sexuality to a piece of tape or chewing gum, and say that condoms are ineffective because they aren't 100%.

 

[Aquitaine]

Yet you need standards that are based on the Bible to lead a morally clean life.

Utter nonsense. Please explain to us heathens how the bible teaches "clean" morality?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Utter nonsense. Please explain to us heathens how the bible teaches "clean" morality?

The Bible is definitely not a part of my life and I'm doing just fine without it.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

We wouldn't just need statistics, but what is taught as well. Here in America, you can expect our abstinence only programs to compare female sexuality to a piece of tape or chewing gum, and say that condoms are ineffective because they aren't 100%.

Yep, that is a good point.
There remains a lack of data here on that, though, since abstinence-only programs are basically non-existent in public school settings.
Instead, abstinence is taught as the only 100% safe means of avoiding STDs and pregnancy, but not as a 'morally correct' choice, instead simply as simple cause and effect.

I've linked to a study done here, which I wouldn't bother reading if I was you.
But basically, we have to review the impact of overseas education methods to determine impact of abstinence-only due to lack of evidence locally.
And based on that, the inherent assumption is that abstinence-only sex education is a pile of hot garbage. I'm paraphrasing a little there...lol...

http://apo.org.au/files/Resource/sexual-education-in-australia-2011.pdf

 

[SomeRandom]

Just because a person has a sexual attraction for another, doesn't mean that they have to have sex with the person they are attracted to.....does it?

If it hurts no one (like a pedophilic relationship actually does!!!!!) then yes yes they should. If two adults are attracted to one and other and both give consent and no one gets hurt, I sincerely don't see the problem. I also can't believe a God would be so freaking petty as to micromanage the sex lives of his creation. Like that's just inane.
And don't drag pedophilia into this. You already look embarrassingly outdated enough without trotting out those trite cliched intellectually dishonest soundbites in order to try to demonize gay people.

You just used a "Faulty comparison." https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/97/Faulty_Comparison
It doesn't impress us younguns anymore, afraid to say, it just makes you look like a predictable grandpa/ma falling back on outdated rhetoric. Sorry.

Homosexuals cannot procreate "lawfully"....which means that they need a third party to facilitate a pregnancy. Every time they have sex, they are breaking God's law. It is called "fornication" in the Bible and comes from the Greek word "por·neiʹa" and encompasses all unlawful or unnatural sexual acts. So because WE are the ones in control of our own actions, WE are the ones who determine where we stand with God. The "I can't help it" excuse carries no weight with the Creator.

Neither can sterile heterosexual people. Does God put them to death too? If not, then his so called "laws" are terribly inconsistent and hypocritical.

Or it means that he has standards and he expects his children to adhere to them, regardless of what everyone else is doing.

His standards mean nothing to a public education board, who's job it is to protect all under their care. If God hated black people the schools would be still obligated to protect any black students. They have to uphold the principles of our Country. They have to protect all of it's (secular) law abiding citizens.
Having a Holy Book call gay people (and according to the Jewish Holy Book, shellfish eaters and people wearing poly- cotton bend clothing etc) abominations is not a good enough reason to deny those citizens the same freedoms and rights as every other citizen.

Try arguing against homosexuality WITHOUT quoting any scripture. Then maybe your argument might hold some weight in secular society which are the very people teaching children not to hate gay people for no real legitimate reason. Give them a sound, intellectual and objective reason and maybe you won't be viewed as some religious spoilt brat lamenting their loss of control over everyone else's lives.
Secular society and public schools are not bound by any scripture from any Holy Book. You want your kids to learn religion? Awesome. But that's not the job of public schools that's YOUR job as a parent. Send them to a Church/Synagogue/Temple etc, teach them your religious beliefs yourself or just send them to a religious school. There's like 4 Christian schools (all different denominations incidentally) where I live all within about 5 kilometers of each other. It's not like you're not spoiled for choice in this country.

But don't force regular society sending their kids to a preferably neutral zone like Public School to adhere to your religious beliefs. You don't see many Hindus demanding that the school Tuckshop stop selling beef products, after all.

 

[Etritonakin]

You mean like how you don't accept that Matt 19:12 is Jesus HIMSELF telling you to get over it?

First -Christ is not telling anyone to get over homosexuality -as in accept it -in that verse.

It does relate to people being born a certain way -which can be similar to any genetic or biological cause of same sex attraction which may exist.

In that respect, I can certainly accept and consider evidence of such -but to say that certain people are born a certain way is not the same as saying homosexual behavior is to be considered acceptable.

When considering such things, I always begin by considering a person who is exactly 50 percent male and 50 percent female -which is a possibility.
How would you tell them to avoid having sex with the opposite sex?
How could one keep the Sabbath if the Earth stopped revolving? An extreme example, but a valid point.
I do believe it possible that a mind with male characteristics might be paired with a body with female characteristics, for example -or any other possible combination.

Furthermore -I am personally over it -and was never really under, around or beside it -I have never been for discrimination or anything similar -or against the thoughts, beliefs, actions, etc., of others except when others make them my business.

Not everyone is of a mind to keep the commandments, and it is not my place to judge their thoughts, beliefs or actions.
Not everyone views the commandments the same way -and it is also not my place in that case.

Since you brought it up, though, they way a person is born does not negate any commandment -but may affect how a commandment may be be applied.
Christ did not tell anyone to accept homosexuality or homosexual behavior as correct (though he definitely did not say to act against those who were born a certain way or did certain things).
The example you gave is of someone being born a certain way -not doing or believing certain things.
The biblical commandment concerning adultery is based on distinct males and females -which is not always presently the case.
It is similar to how an earthly marriage vow will not apply when someone later has no gender whatsoever.
However, keeping the commandment should still be based on that situation as much as possible.
Apart from an actual intersex situation -which is by birth and may well include things which are not so apparent, the keeping of the commandment includes refraining from homosexual behavior.
In such situations, applying the commandment would include being certain actual homosexual behavior was not the case.

Not every religious person believes that, however -and intersex issues are not the only factors when considering homosexuality or homosexual behavior..

If people are not of a mind to consider such things, that is their position -and I'm cool with it. It doesn't concern me. According to the bible, not everyone is now being called to consider such things -or to put obedience to God before any present situation or tendency.

You are way off base with the other comments concerning me personally, but I understand the tendency to lump all religious people together.
I'm really not the sort of person you seem to think I am, and I'm often not saying what you seem to think I am saying.

I was not likening women's rights, racism or war to each other -only saying that the same tendencies exist when reacting to any real or perceived injustice.
Women's rights, racism and war are, however, alike in that each have a basis in injustice -and the same is true concerning discrimination, unkindness, cruelty and violence against gays and others.

 

[Etritonakin]

Not exactly that, but we are "processing" or "assimilating" them into the way society is, and the function within certain parameters. Such as how our education system prepares students to sit in an office all day and teaches them how to do just enough to stand in from of a machine pushing buttons and loading pieces all day.

I'm not sure if you are saying that is a good thing or what. I'd rather just be taught absolute truth -and be told when absolute truth is not currently known.

My point is that -as per the OP -which I don't know much about -targeting the young children of others with that which is not universally undeniable, acceptable or accepted, not age-appropriate, may undermine acceptable parental guidance, is not the place of the school system, and is not purely educational, to further an agenda is not going to truly help the cause of tolerance and acceptance. You might convince children who are not yet able to understand or process what is being said before parents or society have a chance to say otherwise, but that is a dangerous path -and a very incorrect path. In fact, in some cases it might be better to rob a mother bear of her cubs -and I can definitely see that eventually leading to further discrimination, unkindness and violence. It could also very easily lead to trouble within families -doing the students no favors whatsoever. And, regardless of what you might think, homosexual behavior -or any other sexual behavior -can be encouraged where otherwise it might not happen -and that would definitely make some parents angry.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

My point is that -as per the OP -which I don't know much about -targeting the young children of others with that which is not universally undeniable, acceptable or accepted, not age-appropriate, may undermine acceptable parental guidance, is not the place of the school system, and is not purely educational, to further an agenda is not going to truly help the cause of tolerance and acceptance.

Not everyone thinks it's ok to associate with black people, but we don't cater or care about such sentiments. It should be no different with homosexuals and transgenders. The rest of the world will leave you behind, and no one will shed a tear.

 

[MARCELLO]

Recently attention has been drawn to an "anti-bullying program" introduced into Australian schools supposedly in an effort to help children who are "different" to stand up to bullies. But this has gone too far in the opinion of many, where children are asked to role play gay or transsexual teens. Children are also being urged to question their sexuality when they are not really old enough to understand sexual identity at such a young age.

"Australian Christian Lobby spokeswoman Wendy Frances says the Safe Schools material “discriminates’’ against heterosexual kids. “This is bullying in reverse,’’ she says. “A lot of children are still pretty innocent about this stuff; there’s a lot in the program that is age-inappropriate."

It is disturbing to me that the gay agenda has been carried too far and is now infiltrating to the point of making something that is still morally objectionable to many people, into something socially acceptable. It will NEVER be "socially acceptable" to God.

The Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras held in Sydney has become a "family" event. I am sorry, but there is no way I would expose my young children to this...or to teach them that this is "normal" or "acceptable" human behavior.

I have no problem with anyone being 'gay'...it is a genetic hiccup, but to promote the gay lifestyle as morally acceptable is something a Christian cannot condone.

For those who do not care what God thinks....I guess its party on.

Are children in other countries exposed to this too?

I wish I lived in another planet rather than having had to read what you wrote above.