What is Happening in Our Schools?

[Deeje]

You said that it was not the fault of homosexuals for existing (which is a statement that suggests that they are innocent) and then proceeded to say the penalty for homosexuality and fornication was death.

Again, you did not read what I wrote. .

You put your own spin on what I said.

Being born genetically 'imperfect' applies to all of us. (this is what "sin" is) But having a genetic hiccup does not have to dictate our actions. Pedophiles are born that way too but we all have something called "self-control" which means we are the ones who determined what we will will do in any given situation, despite what the imperfect mind and body might be telling us. Just because a person has a sexual attraction for another, doesn't mean that they have to have sex with the person they are attracted to.....does it?

No one can say that denying oneself sex is in any way life threatening. For a Christian, "self-control" is a "fruit" or action of God's holy spirit. (Gal 5:22-24) Anyone can ask God for help in controlling sexual desire, especially when it is inappropriate or unlawful in his eyes to carry it out. Making oneself a "eunuch" on account of the kingdom is something praised and valued as a sacrifice made to God. (Matt 19:12)

You then proceeded to suggest that procreation was highly sacred to God, justifying this penalty.

Homosexuals cannot procreate "lawfully"....which means that they need a third party to facilitate a pregnancy. Every time they have sex, they are breaking God's law. It is called "fornication" in the Bible and comes from the Greek word "por·neiʹa" and encompasses all unlawful or unnatural sexual acts. So because WE are the ones in control of our own actions, WE are the ones who determine where we stand with God. The "I can't help it" excuse carries no weight with the Creator.

To which I made a snarky reply about punishing the innocent and pointing out that not having babies is not a homosexuality thing. It's actually a circumstantial thing. It was to highlight a horrified reaction to a benevolent God smiting innocent creatures because their existence (through no fault of their own) "offended" Him. Which makes him look rather petty, hateful and actually kind of cruel.

Or it means that he has standards and he expects his children to adhere to them, regardless of what everyone else is doing.

If you recall the story of Job in the Bible, you will see that God's adversary had made claims about man's motives in serving his God. He said that if he was allowed to take away everything Job valued, that Job would abandon his worship and even curse God to his face. God allowed the devil to prove his claims. But no matter what the devil did to Job, he maintained integrity to his God and was rewarded for his faithful adherence to his God in spite of all that he lost. Not once did he blame God for his suffering. God rewarded him richly for his extraordinary faith. (Prov 27:11)

Job 42:12-17:
"So Jehovah blessed the last part of Job’s life more than the beginning.....He also came to have seven more sons and three more daughters.....After this Job lived for 140 years, and he saw his children and his grandchildren—four generations.  Finally Job died, after a long and satisfying life."

You can spin it however you want, those are the implications of such statements.

You have a negative mind set and apparently see only what you want to see in my posts. There is nothing I can do about that but draw attention to the strawmen you create.

 

[kerndog]

Again, you did not read what I wrote. .

You put your own spin on what I said.

Being born genetically 'imperfect' applies to all of us. (this is what "sin" is) But having a genetic hiccup does not have to dictate our actions. Pedophiles are born that way too but we all have something called "self-control" which means we are the ones who determined what we will will do in any given situation, despite what the imperfect mind and body might be telling us. Just because a person has a sexual attraction for another, doesn't mean that they have to have sex with the person they are attracted to.....does it?

No one can say that denying oneself sex is in any way life threatening. For a Christian, "self-control" is a "fruit" or action of God's holy spirit. (Gal 5:22-24) Anyone can ask God for help in controlling sexual desire, especially when it is inappropriate or unlawful in his eyes to carry it out. Making oneself a "eunuch" on account of the kingdom is something praised and valued as a sacrifice made to God. (Matt 19:12)



Homosexuals cannot procreate "lawfully"....which means that they need a third party to facilitate a pregnancy. Every time they have sex, they are breaking God's law. It is called "fornication" in the Bible and comes from the Greek word "por·neiʹa" and encompasses all unlawful or unnatural sexual acts. So because WE are the ones in control of our own actions, WE are the ones who determine where we stand with God. The "I can't help it" excuse carries no weight with the Creator.



Or it means that he has standards and he expects his children to adhere to them, regardless of what everyone else is doing.

If you recall the story of Job in the Bible, you will see that God's adversary had made claims about man's motives in serving his God. He said that if he was allowed to take away everything Job valued, that Job would abandon his worship and even curse God to his face. God allowed the devil to prove his claims. But no matter what the devil did to Job, he maintained integrity to his God and was rewarded for his faithful adherence to his God in spite of all that he lost. Not once did he blame God for his suffering. God rewarded him richly for his extraordinary faith. (Prov 27:11)

Job 42:12-17:
"So Jehovah blessed the last part of Job’s life more than the beginning.....He also came to have seven more sons and three more daughters.....After this Job lived for 140 years, and he saw his children and his grandchildren—four generations.  Finally Job died, after a long and satisfying life."



You have a negative mind set and apparently see only what you want to see in my posts. There is nothing I can do about that but draw attention to the strawmen you create.

You are a hoot sister, LOVE your use of the little yellow guys !

 

[Deeje]

You are a hoot sister, LOVE your use of the little yellow guys !

My regular "freesmileys" are down at the moment so I went looking for some others and found these....they are cute, aren't they?
http://www.myemoticons.com/emoticons/humor/

Sometimes it feels like this on here...

LOL

These ones are a bit different to use. You have to select your image, then "copy the image location" and then click on the "image" link above to paste it in. Took me a while to figure it out, but I love them.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But having a genetic hiccup does not have to dictate our actions.

Of course it depends, but largely these "hiccups" do have strong bearing on our behavior. Such as, most people pick up on that there is something off about me, based on my behaviors, and they are correct to assume there is something different about me since I have Asperger's.

Pedophiles are born that way too but we all have something called "self-control" which means we are the ones who determined what we will will do in any given situation

Pedophiles cause harm and are sexually interested in people who are not sexually developed. It's not even comparable as homosexuality involves consensual sex between sexually developed adults.

No one can say that denying oneself sex is in any way life threatening.

No one should be expected to forfeit sex because of someone else's religious views.

Anyone can ask God for help in controlling sexual desire, especially when it is inappropriate or unlawful in his eyes to carry it out.

If this were the case, then why do conversion therapies mostly and generally fail? Why has study-after-study revealed such therapies make someone worse off than before they started?

Every time they have sex, they are breaking God's law.

Your god's laws according to your interpretation. It's ok to believe as you will, but it's not ok to expect others to live up to what you believe. If this includes things that contradict your beliefs, such as public schools saying it's ok to be gay, then it is on you to teach your children, as you cannot expect other people and facilities to accommodate your personal religious views. Schools especially do not exist to promote religion, but to promote learning, and a part of learning is learning how to get along with others, and that includes homosexuals, bisexuals, transgenders, and other people who are at odds with your religion.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Is that a "wow" because it is sadly true or for another reason?

Schools in Australia are breeding grounds for all manner of unsavory conduct. The fact that most people don't consider then "unsavory" any more is beside the point.

Okay, so it has taken me a while, but I'm at a computer, and I did say I'd try and address this post. I'm sure we'll see eye to eye by the end of it...

Teens are freely having sex...a lot of it under the influence of drugs and alcohol, so it is largely unprotected. That means that STD's are on the rise as well.

Yes. But all you are doing here is conflating the use of a specific anti-bullying program with the 'Fall of the Western World'. So yes, STDs are up. What this program is about is trying to get bullying of transgender down. As much as you see those as the same issue, please be aware that many (including myself) do not.

Parents are almost forced to allow their teens to sleep with whoever they like under their own roof.

Not that I've seen. Won't be happening in my house.

Many older people today have become as desensitized as the youth. They will accept things today that would have shocked the socks off them decades ago.

Like Vietnamese immigrants, you mean?

Is this a good thing? Are people happier with all this freedom? Or is it causing more problems than the old ways ever did? Have we just swapped slavery to one set of rules for an equal form of slavery, causing an equal amount of heartache?

People are commonly ***-clowns, it seems to me. But I'm not about to think I can fix that with a set of rules. I realise you do, and you see those rules as Heaven-sent. but in short, my job as a parent, and formerly as a teacher, is to live in the world as it is, and try to take an incremental step forwards. That is reality, and always has been. So I would hope that my daughter will learn to treat people as people, and will also learn to respect her own body, as well as the bodies of others.

In terms of 'slavery', it's not a word I would use lightly. I'm not quite sure who the 'slaves' are in respect to this particular issue. It sounds more like a general wringing-of-hands over the state of the planet to me, but perhaps that is unfair. Still, if I were a minority group, including basically the entire black population, homosexuals, atheists, single women, etc, I would be happier with the way the world is set-up now, warts and all, than how it used to be (warts and all).

How many of today's children even know what a father is in a family setting? How many know what being faithful to a mate means? Is the world a better place because we have thrown all the Bible's rules out of the window?

Please stop conflating disparate things together. It's unhelpful. We can bring in Sharia law to address the first two of your listed concerns, for example. How this relates to the third is anyone's guess.

My daughters know their father, and I am faithful to my wife. No bible needed.
People would do better to take self-responsibility instead of deferring to pretty much ANYTHING in my humble opinion. But you know what they say about opinions, right?

 

[Etritonakin]

Teaching tolerance and acceptance of people. Regardless of skin color, sexuality, nationality, religion, schools are not the place for political bickering and they should be open to all.

I'd likely start by pointing out all the peace, love, and other Hippy stuff Jesus talked about.

I know the differences. But, ultimately, all education is indoctrination. We don't have to tell people they have to accept each other, but kids do need to learn that in the adult world we at least have to tolerate people we may not like.

They aren't teaching the Bible is wrong. But if the school teaches something that is against the tenants of your religion, as often happens in America with the "Evolution vs Creationism 'debate,'" oh well. The school does not exist to promote your religious ideology, and if your ideology cannot allow for the tolerance of people you don't like, then perhaps you should rethink your ideology.

What?

That's correct. But homosexuals do have a right to the same public places as everyone else, and they have a right to not be the victims of bullying and harassment of "sincerely held religious beliefs." They have a right to be treated with decency and respect, and if a teacher tells a kid s/he's being mean for picking on a homosexual, for whatever reason, the teacher would be doing the right thing by saying that no one, including homosexuals, should be picked on because they are different, because it's ok to be different.

We worked towards accepting black kids in school. I am sure those resisting the acceptance of homosexuals will be just fine.

Because they're gay?

They aren't summing up pansexuality, bisexuality, or asexuality.

It's different because the gay person has tons of replicated research to verify his claim, the religious person only has a book that in many cases can't even get basic facts

That last post was not written well -It was confusing even to me as I re-read it.
I was tired.

Accepting black kids into schools is similar to homosexuals not being mistreated by others, but it is not similar to an agenda to cause people to accept certain ideas about homosexuality by targeting them at a young age -and it is definitely not similar to encouraging youngsters to question their sexuality in an environment which might encourage homosexuality.

And, yes, homosexuality can be encouraged -and not just in people who were born to be homosexuals. I'm not saying there is nothing at all to the science to which you refer -but the "they are born that way" line is a very effective political one meant to counter the idea that homosexuality can be a choice.

It is not a scientific fact which explains all homosexuality.

I am definitely against anyone being discriminated against or treated badly -and I do not agree with how many religious people are thinking and acting -but I also do not agree with all of the tactics being used by those promoting homosexuality -or some of their goals.

All education is most certainly not indoctrination.

I'll try to address the rest later.

 

[Etritonakin]

Let me get this straight (so to speak): it's the gay woman's fault that the hetero woman (not so hetero if she's into it) cheated on her husband? It's the gay woman's fault that the husband isn't secure enough in his relationship to avoid killing anyone ('cause I guess "divorce" is just too lame)?


Yeah, all we have to do, staight or LGBTQ, is survive these last horrifically violent death throes. Then the Kingdom of Heaven can truly start.


Has it ever occurred to you that God IS trying to fix what's wrong with the planet, but you enjoy the status quo too much to appreciate His goals?


It makes me laugh that "women's rights" are lumped in with racism and war.


And yet God is clearly demanding we should all get over our petty problems and join together in a heavenly harmony, and many people disagree with that.


So the opinions of God and the Messiah mean less than a murderous man who enjoyed stoning people until he realized he could mess up the religion much more if he joined them?


Yes. However, when religious people are promoting violence and hatred, basic morality says we should stand against it.


I think many religions already have the indoctrination thing covered.


Just because your religious leaders say it's not immoral to phsyically or verbally attack others doesn't mean it isn't.

Abusive people don't believe they are abusive. They believe they have the right to force others to do their will. They are still abusive, even though they don't see themselves that way.


You mean like how you don't accept that Matt 19:12 is Jesus HIMSELF telling you to get over it?

A Christian listening to JESUS? Ha! That'd be the day!

No, much better to listen to two religious terrorists (Moses and Paul).


Where is this scripture? How many actual examples of this "one man and one woman" thing do we actually HAVE in the bible? Should marriage licenses be revoked if a woman fails to have a baby every year?
edit: I don't want babies. I would rather rip out my own uterus with my own bare hands than give my psychotic parents' descendants. I am helping humanity's future by not reproducing. I am trying to prevent The Omen here.


Getting laid just to say you have reproduced is highly selfish. Many parents just have children as though they are Social Security slaves, designed to cater to their every need without getting paid.

My maternal grandparents had children because their religion told them it was necessary. My own parents had children because apparently they didn't use contraception and that's okay, because we were always supposed to be either my father's slaves or my mother's baby dolls like when she was a kid. I'll take two loving gay or whatever people any day of the week instead of hetero parents who are abusive/psychotic, thanks.

I honestly don't know what you are talking about -it doesn't seem to relate to what I wrote at all -and seems to make many false assumptions.

 

[Sunstone]

...to encouraging youngsters to question their sexuality in an environment which might encourage homosexuality.

If you know of any scientific evidence that suggests sexual orientation can be changed by "encouraging youngsters to question their sexuality", please feel free to provide links to it.

And, yes, homosexuality can be encouraged -and not just in people who were born to be homosexuals. I'm not saying there is nothing at all to the science to which you refer -but the "they are born that way" line is a very effective political one meant to counter the idea that homosexuality can be a choice.

It is not a scientific fact which explains all homosexuality.

Your words are mere speculation, not substantive. Please provide links to the science, if any, which supports your quaint views.

 

[Deeje]

Of course it depends, but largely these "hiccups" do have strong bearing on our behavior. Such as, most people pick up on that there is something off about me, based on my behaviors, and they are correct to assume there is something different about me since I have Asperger's.

I have relatives who are 'Aspies' so I know what you are talking about. They are rather 'blunted' emotionally, unable to read the emotions of others...unable to tell when they have said something inappropriate.

Pedophiles cause harm and are sexually interested in people who are not sexually developed. It's not even comparable as homosexuality involves consensual sex between sexually developed adults

No one should be expected to forfeit sex because of someone else's religious views.

You misunderstand. I am not expecting anyone to subscribe to my religious views. My argument is that if a person calls themselves a "Christian" then they are bound to abide by the the scriptural laws that dictate our Christian conduct. Those who have no concerns about what God thinks are free to do as they wish. What consenting adults do in private is their own business.....just don't ask me to accept it or to condone it. Don't force my children to role play at school because they will NOT be the bullies. They are taught to respect human beings and to offer them the good news of a wonderful future from the Bible.....Not to make them feel bad about themselves when they not responsible for their sexual orientation.
But if a gay person was to express interest in becoming a Christian, then we would have to talk about the things I have already mentioned. You can be a practicing homosexual OR a Christian, but you can't be both. Those who want their cake and eat it too are kidding themselves.

Religious beliefs are a choice....sexual orientation is not. I don't believe that you can sexually "disorient" someone.

If this were the case, then why do conversion therapies mostly and generally fail? Why has study-after-study revealed such therapies make someone worse off than before they started?

I don't agree that conversion therapies can do anything to change a person's genetics. That is completely unrealistic. The approach taken by JW's on this issue is that of developing a greater love for God than one has for oneself. We will do anything for someone we love that much. God has promised to help those who sacrifice something important for him....by means of his spirit he will empower them to overcome their desires.
Those who sacrifice their sexual lives for him will be richly rewarded. (Matt 19:12) God will not change who they are in this world, but he will give them a satisfying role for now, and a wonderful hope for the future.

I have been used to help quite a few alcoholics and people with addictions to form strong bonds with Jehovah and this has given them, not only the strength to overcome their addictions but it also gives their lives purpose.....the best way to help yourself is to help others. Our ministry keeps us very busy, and studying the Bible with those who had all but given up on life and seeing them transform into self-sufficient and confident people, in control of their own lives, is very rewarding.

Your god's laws according to your interpretation. It's ok to believe as you will, but it's not ok to expect others to live up to what you believe. If this includes things that contradict your beliefs, such as public schools saying it's ok to be gay, then it is on you to teach your children, as you cannot expect other people and facilities to accommodate your personal religious views.

I agree. This is why a lot of people are opting to home school their children. They do not want these values (or lack of them) indoctrinated into their children. I will never accept the gay lifestyle as "normal" because, biblically speaking, there is nothing "normal" about it. I respect your right to live in whatever way you choose. But it is also my responsibility to warn whoever will listen, that a day of accounting is coming, whether people believe in my God or not. I don't force it, but I am under obligation to issue the warning, none the less.

Schools especially do not exist to promote religion, but to promote learning, and a part of learning is learning how to get along with others, and that includes homosexuals, bisexuals, transgenders, and other people who are at odds with your religion.

It seems to me as if the GLBT people are suddenly coming out of the woodwork in recent times. Perverted sex and violence dominate the entertainment industry and satan has made sure that his stamp is on everything in this world. I work hard to keep his stamp off my family by giving my children and grandchildren the same Bible principles with which I was raised. These are not "old fashioned" values, but standards of decency that used to make the world a much nicer place to live.

 

[Deeje]

Okay, so it has taken me a while, but I'm at a computer, and I did say I'd try and address this post. I'm sure we'll see eye to eye by the end of it...

I find you to be a very agreeable person lewisnotmiller...even when you disagree.

Yes. But all you are doing here is conflating the use of a specific anti-bullying program with the 'Fall of the Western World'. So yes, STDs are up. What this program is about is trying to get bullying of transgender down. As much as you see those as the same issue, please be aware that many (including myself) do not.

My beef is that the gay lobby are gaining strength in many areas and infiltrating our schools. I have no problem with anti-bullying programs as such, what I disagree with is the general consensus that the gay lifestyle is somehow to be embraced and promoted....and even indoctrinated into school children.
I don't want my kids to accept what I believe God condemns. I have a right to say I won't ever support SSM.
And I don't feel bad for saying so.

Not that I've seen. Won't be happening in my house.

I don't know what things are like where you live, but teens these days take their boyfriends and girlfriends home for sex under their parents roof. It's becoming an expectation these days. Parents have given up on trying to stop their teens from having sex. That means that STD's are definitely on the increase because the drinking and drug culture among our youth in this country, is guaranteeing that their misspent youth is going to come back to haunt them later.

Like Vietnamese immigrants, you mean?

Hardly

....but I was thinking more about the values people used to have as an expectation. People gave their word and kept it. They had standards of common decency that were kept by the majority and people actually cared about their neighbors. This is not a nice world....it has no values, no ethics, no morals. Individuals might still diaplay those things but they becoming rarer and I lament the loss of them.

I'm not about to think I can fix that with a set of rules. I realise you do, and you see those rules as Heaven-sent. but in short, my job as a parent, and formerly as a teacher, is to live in the world as it is, and try to take an incremental step forwards. That is reality, and always has been. So I would hope that my daughter will learn to treat people as people, and will also learn to respect her own body, as well as the bodies of others.

It would be nice to think that we could make rules and have everyone follow them for the common good, but we know that this is unrealistic these days. People are generally self focused and not really interested in anyone else outside their particular circle. How good would it be if nations could cooperate together for the common good, but if individuals can't achieve this, then nations never will. I see the world going to hell in a hand-basket and people such as yourself expressing this incredible optimism.....when things go from bad to worse, and standards keep falling and human behavior keeps getting worse by the day...where on earth does your optimism come from? Is there some happy weed that leads to a delusion about the future? Human beings have all but taken this planet to the brink and you think they can fix this mess?

In terms of 'slavery', it's not a word I would use lightly. I'm not quite sure who the 'slaves' are in respect to this particular issue. It sounds more like a general wringing-of-hands over the state of the planet to me, but perhaps that is unfair. Still, if I were a minority group, including basically the entire black population, homosexuals, atheists, single women, etc, I would be happier with the way the world is set-up now, warts and all, than how it used to be (warts and all).

The incredible advances we have made in technology are having a negative impact on the present generation because they are forgetting how to communicate without a device. They are losing their handwriting skills and ability to verbalize their thoughts. Communication is vital for the human race, but even though our forms of communication are now more advanced, have they really improved our ability to get along with our neighbors? Is there respect for authority in the world anymore.....respect for parents and elders? Where is the world heading if this situation keeps going as it is? I see no future worth living if it is left up to man. Thankfully, I believe that it will be taken out of his hands.

Please stop conflating disparate things together. It's unhelpful. We can bring in Sharia law to address the first two of your listed concerns, for example. How this relates to the third is anyone's guess.

Would taking away people's freedom really achieve anything? No matter how much freedom you give to humans, they always abuse it. Human behavior always falls to the level of the lowest common denominator. Standards continue to fall and people become more and more self absorbed. This is the reality and I don't have to like it.

My daughters know their father, and I am faithful to my wife.

Your daughter and wife are becoming a minority.

No bible needed.

Yet you need standards that are based on the Bible to lead a morally clean life. Immorality always leads to heartbreak...loss of self respect and a feeling of worthlessness.With no respect for themselves, how can people have respect for others?

People would do better to take self-responsibility instead of deferring to pretty much ANYTHING in my humble opinion. But you know what they say about opinions, right?

Yes I do, but how many people today take responsibility for anything anymore?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That last post was not written well -It was confusing even to me as I re-read it.
I was tired.

It is written well. Homosexuals have tons of science to verify their claims. The religious person has only their book, which is often ancient, and typically filled with errors.

Accepting black kids into schools is similar to homosexuals not being mistreated by others, but it is not similar to an agenda to cause people to accept certain ideas about homosexuality by targeting them at a young age -and it is definitely not similar to encouraging youngsters to question their sexuality in an environment which might encourage homosexuality.

Except no one is being encouraged to question their sexuality or encouraging homosexuality. Saying it's ok to be gay does neither of those things.

And, yes, homosexuality can be encouraged -and not just in people who were born to be homosexuals. I'm not saying there is nothing at all to the science to which you refer -but the "they are born that way" line is a very effective political one meant to counter the idea that homosexuality can be a choice.

Homosexuals do not have a choice. That is the scientific consensus, and it confirms the unanimous consensus of homosexuals.

-but I also do not agree with all of the tactics being used by those promoting homosexuality -or some of their goals.

The acceptance of homosexuals is the only thing being promoted.

All education is most certainly not indoctrination.

Indeed, it is. Just by its very nature, we are indoctrinating values and topics we deem important. We teach math and science rather than astrology and metaphysics because we value math and science.

 

[Etritonakin]

If you know of any scientific evidence that suggests sexual orientation can be changed by "encouraging youngsters to question their sexuality", please feel free to provide links to it.



Your words are mere speculation, not substantive. Please provide links to the science, if any, which supports your quaint views.

Just about any orientation can be changed, promoted, encouraged, etc. -especially at a young age.
Using questionable science is not a new tactic, either.

My words are not mere speculation, but the result of honest conversation with homosexuals, observation, etc.

Providing scientific proof from a more accepted and reputable source would be pointless, as you likely would not accept it and would continue to cite sources which support your view.

 

[Etritonakin]

It is written well. Homosexuals have tons of science to verify their claims. The religious person has only their book, which is often ancient, and typically filled with errors.

Except no one is being encouraged to question their sexuality or encouraging homosexuality. Saying it's ok to be gay does neither of those things.

Homosexuals do not have a choice. That is the scientific consensus, and it confirms the unanimous consensus of homosexuals.

The acceptance of homosexuals is the only thing being promoted.

Indeed, it is. Just by its very nature, we are indoctrinating values and topics we deem important. We teach math and science rather than astrology and metaphysics because we value math and science.

I meant my post.


That is not the unanimous consensus of homosexuals -and it is absolutely not the scientific consensus.

That is absolutely false.

The acceptance of homosexuals is not the only thing being promoted.
The acceptance of homosexuality as being PURELY genetic is being promoted.
That is NOT scientific fact or overall scientific consensus.
Ironically, freedom of sexuality is also being promoted -in similar fashion as the "free love" of the 60s.
While not all of that is necessarily part of the curriculum, it is happening overall -including within schools.

Teaching math because we value it is not indoctrination.
Teaching science because we value it is not indoctrination.
Their educational value -in their pure form -is universal undeniability.

Some deny such, because they do not understand such.


Teaching various ideas or promoting agendas using questionable, incomplete or false math or science -and discouraging people to think or question otherwise -that is indoctrination.

"They were born that way" is something which may apply to some, but, overall, the idea is being used to support indoctrination.

That is not teaching tolerance or acceptance, that is supporting an assumption for which supporting evidence is being sought after the assumption was made -and for which some supporting evidence seems apparent.

"They were born that way" -regardless of whatever truth there may be to it, counters the main idea which has been used by cruel people to support their horrible mistreatment of homosexuals and others....
That idea being essentially that homosexuality is simply an evil choice made by evil people.

While it may be one of many contributing factors in some percentage of cases, and while it is extremely effective at countering false notions leading to discrimination, cruelty and violence, it is not, in itself "THE TRUTH" -and it is certainly not the complete truth regardless of how much truth it actually represents.

It is a statement which has not truly been proven correct, but it is also a statement which people cannot simply deny.
It is an extremely shrewd political stance -but such political stances have a cost.

One terrible cost in this case is the denial of any other idea or consideration of any other factor -coupled with consequences for expressing or holding any such opposing ideas. That can lead to many situations which will not be positive even for gays.

The greatest cost is an individual potentially not truly or fully understanding themselves -or feeling free to do so.

Some homosexuals have expressed that they are homosexual by choice -and have not simply been tolerated or accepted by those promoting the idea that "They were born that way" -and to say that such people obviously have some difference they were born with -which they simply don't realize -would be nothing but a wild assumption.

I'd be the first to help a homosexual I saw being discriminated against or acted against -but don't try to sell me horsepucky.

While there may be some truth to it, at present it is employed as the sort of BS that gets some politician elected -but has no true substance and was not even intended to.
When it is obvious to many that there is no substance to it, the politician loses support -and enough of such things leads to a lack of trust in the government overall -and sometimes to a very weak or failed government.
That may not matter to the politician who has what they want, but it matters to the overall situation.

In short, I'd suggest revising that oversimplified BS stance -because it is undermining your overall position, causing quite understandable opposition, and is actually hindering the goal of tolerance and acceptance.
It also very much IS harmful to everyone because it is not an accurate representation of known facts, is used to discourage consideration of other factors, and is being used to promote the agenda of some with disregard for the overall well-being, freedom and rights of individuals -including homosexual individuals.

 

[Thanda]

There is no evidence that families of homosexual couples are inferior to families of heterosexual couples. After decades of research nobody has been able to link a gender role parent association to children's health. Instead, findings from both pediatrics and psychology associations such as APA and international equivalents have shown children of homosexual parents are just as well adjusted as children of heterosexual parents.

Just wondering, what would you position be if the research had found gay children are not as well adjusted?

 

[suncowiam]

I have relatives who are 'Aspies' so I know what you are talking about. They are rather 'blunted' emotionally, unable to read the emotions of others...unable to tell when they have said something inappropriate.


You misunderstand. I am not expecting anyone to subscribe to my religious views. My argument is that if a person calls themselves a "Christian" then they are bound to abide by the the scriptural laws that dictate our Christian conduct. Those who have no concerns about what God thinks are free to do as they wish. What consenting adults do in private is their own business.....just don't ask me to accept it or to condone it. Don't force my children to role play at school because they will NOT be the bullies. They are taught to respect human beings and to offer them the good news of a wonderful future from the Bible.....Not to make them feel bad about themselves when they not responsible for their sexual orientation.
But if a gay person was to express interest in becoming a Christian, then we would have to talk about the things I have already mentioned. You can be a practicing homosexual OR a Christian, but you can't be both. Those who want their cake and eat it too are kidding themselves.

Religious beliefs are a choice....sexual orientation is not. I don't believe that you can sexually "disorient" someone.


I don't agree that conversion therapies can do anything to change a person's genetics. That is completely unrealistic. The approach taken by JW's on this issue is that of developing a greater love for God than one has for oneself. We will do anything for someone we love that much. God has promised to help those who sacrifice something important for him....by means of his spirit he will empower them to overcome their desires.
Those who sacrifice their sexual lives for him will be richly rewarded. (Matt 19:12) God will not change who they are in this world, but he will give them a satisfying role for now, and a wonderful hope for the future.

I have been used to help quite a few alcoholics and people with addictions to form strong bonds with Jehovah and this has given them, not only the strength to overcome their addictions but it also gives their lives purpose.....the best way to help yourself is to help others. Our ministry keeps us very busy, and studying the Bible with those who had all but given up on life and seeing them transform into self-sufficient and confident people, in control of their own lives, is very rewarding.


I agree. This is why a lot of people are opting to home school their children. They do not want these values (or lack of them) indoctrinated into their children. I will never accept the gay lifestyle as "normal" because, biblically speaking, there is nothing "normal" about it. I respect your right to live in whatever way you choose. But it is also my responsibility to warn whoever will listen, that a day of accounting is coming, whether people believe in my God or not. I don't force it, but I am under obligation to issue the warning, none the less.


It seems to me as if the GLBT people are suddenly coming out of the woodwork in recent times. Perverted sex and violence dominate the entertainment industry and satan has made sure that his stamp is on everything in this world. I work hard to keep his stamp off my family by giving my children and grandchildren the same Bible principles with which I was raised. These are not "old fashioned" values, but standards of decency that used to make the world a much nicer place to live.

You bible thumping is nothing more or less than just pure speculation. What's the difference between your thought versus a racial supremacist arguing that racial equality should not be taught in school?

Only your bible suggests that homosexuals and transgendered are wrong. And it still doesn't prove why. It's a bunch of metaphorical phrases that still needs interpretation to come to rational conclusions. And each of you has appointed yourself judges of these verses because there are so many Christians that don't agree with each other.

It's so ironic to read bible verses recited as if that is sufficient proof for everyone else in the real world.

I wish there could be a survey of the background on kids that are bullied AND the background on kids that do the bullying. I wouldn't be surprise to show a trend in religion and politics that follow their parents. Of course, I admit to you that I'm speculating, unlike the pure speculation that has been grossly done so far in this thread.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Not once did he blame God for his suffering. God rewarded him richly for his extraordinary faith. (Prov 27:11)

But it WAS God's fault he was suffering. God was being an abusive parent and you are acting like a child should just put up with it.

So because WE are the ones in control of our own actions, WE are the ones who determine where we stand with God.

Actually, I find that God gets credit for when good things happen, but suddenly it's all about "free will" when bad things do.

So yes, STDs are up.

From what I understand, it's usually up in highly conservative areas where "abstinence" (where we think this will work despite worshipping someone born of a tween virgin) is the main "lesson" they get.

unable to tell when they have said something inappropriate.

Sometimes it's not about saying something inappropriate as it is cutting all the crap used for "social niceties". I try to be diplomatic IRL, but when the crap needs to be cut, I will do so.

My argument is that if a person calls themselves a "Christian" then they are bound to abide by the the scriptural laws that dictate our Christian conduct.

God is more than the bible. I feel God is trying to make the world a better place and you and others are insisting evil remains.
FYI: "Evil" being defined as "hurting others without valid objective reason"

You can be a practicing homosexual OR a Christian, but you can't be both. Those who want their cake and eat it too are kidding themselves.

So, tax preparers, zealots (religious terrorists), arrogant people, cowards, etc can all be Christians, but dang it, being gay is just crossing the line?

We will do anything for someone we love that much.

This is countered by your own statements that your denomination will drop someone like a hot potato if sufficiently annoyed.

God has promised to help those who sacrifice something important for him....by means of his spirit he will empower them to overcome their desires.

I bet all the people who suggest gays just don't have sex have gotten laid plenty of times.

I will never accept the gay lifestyle as "normal" because, biblically speaking, there is nothing "normal" about it.

It would've been had the bible been honest. David is made into a complete man who-- because they were desperate to distract from his loving relationship with Jonathan. John is considered the "Beloved Disciple" of Jesus, not some chick. In a quest to be increasingly chauvinistic, that just leaves men for the other men to play with, you know.

Perverted sex and violence dominate the entertainment industry and satan has made sure that his stamp is on everything in this world.

LOL, only in Christianity can the Prince of Peace be considered evil. World peace, love, compassion, tolerance ... all of these things are seen as evil ... and NOT war, hatred, bigotry, etc.

I don't want my kids to accept what I believe God condemns.

I feel sorry for any relative of yours, even from your own womb, who might be gay.

Parents have given up on trying to stop their teens from having sex.

Because we keep trying to tell teens they are adults while infantalizing them at the same time. Their bodies say they're ready. That you didn't mentally prepare them on par with their bodies is no one's fault but yours'.

People gave their word and kept it.

To be fair, Jesus recommends NOT promising anyone anything.

They had standards of common decency that were kept by the majority and people actually cared about their neighbors.

Is that what happened in Salem, people caring about their neighbors? Is that what North Carolina is doing, caring about its citizens? When Texas tries to write grade school textbooks that praise the "migrant workers" (slaves) for helping lazy white people do the hard work, is that caring about its citizens? Is handing more money to corporations, both secular and religious, while starving out the poor, caring about its citizens? Is threatening to beat women for wanting to pee because they didn't like your haircut about caring for your neighbors?

Only your bible suggests that homosexuals and transgendered are wrong.

Actually, Jesus states in Matt 19:12 that men with no junk (eunuchs) can be born that way, made that way, or volunteer that way and we should deal with it. But it's not like Christians care about what Jesus thought. Even before he died, he complained his apostles were morons who didn't get the point of the "Way".
edit: there was a study about religion and bullying, sorta:
http://news.berkeley.edu/2012/04/30/religionandgenerosity/

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Just wondering, what would you position be if the research had found gay children are not as well adjusted?

Depends on the methodology of the study and further research into why they weren't well adjusted. I.e. Is it from parent competency or fallout from social stigma or some other factor.

 

[Thanda]

Depends on the methodology of the study and further research into why they weren't well adjusted. I.e. Is it from parent competency or fallout from social stigma or some other factor.

Specifically if it was because they lacked a balanced male female influence in their home.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That is not the unanimous consensus of homosexuals -and it is absolutely not the scientific consensus.

Obviously, it is.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ay-what-do-scientists-say-about-origins-bein/

The other statement was that scientists are "in dispute" over whether being gay is a choice.
This comment hinges on the difference between sexual orientation and sexual behavior. Scientists don’t doubt that it’s possible for someone who’s gay to choose, through sheer willpower, to ignore sexual impulses and abstain from homosexual activity. But scientists add that for such people, those sexual impulses don’t go away.
So, scientists argue, even if sexual behavior is a choice, sexual orientation -- the state of being gay or heterosexual or bisexual and the impulses one feels -- is not a choice. For that reason, we rated this statement False.

The acceptance of homosexuals is not the only thing being promoted.
The acceptance of homosexuality as being PURELY genetic is being promoted.
That is NOT scientific fact or overall scientific consensus.

It indeed does have a genetic basis.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ay-what-do-scientists-say-about-origins-bein/

One statement was that "there's no scientific conclusion that (being gay) is genetic."
We found that Pawlenty’s word choice -- "genetic" -- was pivotal. The way he phrased it, he’s pretty close to accurate. But if he’d said instead that "there's no scientific conclusion that (being gay) is biological," he would have been incorrect. On balance, we rated the claim Mostly True.

Teaching math because we value it is not indoctrination.
Teaching science because we value it is not indoctrination.
Their educational value -in their pure form -is universal undeniability.

We are still indoctrinating them with the values and other things we have deemed important. School, by it's vary nature, plays a major role in developing people, their views, and instilling cultural norms and values. It's not indoctrination as applies to religion, but very much so to the point of preparing students for an industrial-based economy and future as workers.

"They were born that way" is something which may apply to some, but, overall, the idea is being used to support indoctrination.

There is nothing indoctrinating about that. Just people someone says "I was born gay" does not mean they are trying to do anything more than state their condition.
Or is it indoctrination just when it's something you don't like?

That is not teaching tolerance or acceptance, that is supporting an assumption for which supporting evidence is being sought after the assumption was made -and for which some supporting evidence seems apparent.

It is based on tolerance and acceptance. It is stating what science confirms, and that is that people do not choose to be homosexual, no more than they choose to be bisexual or heterosexual.

One terrible cost in this case is the denial of any other idea or consideration of any other factor -coupled with consequences for expressing or holding any such opposing ideas. That can lead to many situations which will not be positive even for gays.

Such as them being denied rights, not allowed to spend their dying partner's final moments in the hospital, being beaten, fired from jobs, evicted from homes?

The greatest cost is an individual potentially not truly or fully understanding themselves -or feeling free to do so.

Feeling free to do so? Why should people not question, challenge, and understand themselves? And how is an environment which is becoming increasing neutral to Conservative political baggage going to hinder this?

In short, I'd suggest revising that oversimplified BS stance -because it is undermining your overall position, causing quite understandable opposition, and is actually hindering the goal of tolerance and acceptance.

The only "BS stance" is the one fighting against equality, tolerance, and acceptance.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I have relatives who are 'Aspies' so I know what you are talking about. They are rather 'blunted' emotionally, unable to read the emotions of others...unable to tell when they have said something inappropriate.

I know what it is and does. But, the point was that it's a genetic factor that has a huge bearing on behaviors.

I am not expecting anyone to subscribe to my religious views.

By stating the bullying thing in regards to the OP, even just by asing "what is happening to our schools," you are treading into the area of expecting others to subscribe and cater to your religious views.

I have been used to help quite a few alcoholics and people with addictions to form strong bonds with Jehovah and this has given them, not only the strength to overcome their addictions but it also gives their lives purpose.....the best way to help yourself is to help others. Our ministry keeps us very busy, and studying the Bible with those who had all but given up on life and seeing them transform into self-sufficient and confident people, in control of their own lives, is very rewarding.

Alcoholism is not comparable to or anything like homosexuality. I've also known alcoholics who recovered without god or religion.

I will never accept the gay lifestyle as "normal" because, biblically speaking, there is nothing "normal" about it.

And I shall toast to the day such views are no longer around. Doubt I live to see it, but they aren't too far away.