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What is Hell?
- Thread starter Irelandrulz2
- Start date
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
hades IS the word translated into 'hell' - see how the American Standard version uses it where the KJV uses hell.
Matthew 11:23 King James Version
23And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell:
Matthew 11:23 New American Standard Bible
"And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades;
Luke 16:22-23 KJV
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:22-23 NASB
22"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
You acknowledge that hades means death grave & pit, yet you hold to the notion that its a place of fiery torment.
You need to free your mind of the doctrine of hell fire and go back to the original meanings to have the correct understanding. Jesus was speaking about death...not some place of fire and brimstone.
The KJV followed the Latin Vulgate and mistranslated hades as hell.
That's where all the confusion comes from.
Thanks, Pegg, for all your sincere work here.
outhouse
Atheistically
I studied it last night from the red easter eggs to the capitol T to the small t
and the fact they follow jesus literally through the gospels followed closely. Problem is we know much of the early gospels are forgerys
I also notice your churches view takes into consideration of the oral tradition in which religion was passed down and the possibility for errors
they also take a hands on approuch to "DO" what jesus does
And they think they are the true christians because of there extreme faith to literal jesus.
they have a attitude there a little holier then thou, so to speak.
seemed like a decent enough religion if one was going to have one.
i found no problem with there minority view or the religion as a whole. A little extreme for my taste but hey carry on if it makes you happy.
NOW back on to hell.
I see exactly why you use the NT to base your history of hell on. Problem lies with the fast you can see hell evolving from grave to a mythical lake of fire. in my opinion
I do have a problem with taking the bible to literal though. isnt it a common belief amoungst most christians that the bible is not to be take literally??
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Good job!
Actually, we don't know that. The books of the Bible which are the Protestant or the Catholic Canons are not forged.
That would be the Catholic Church.
According to the NT, true Christians are born again.
A lot of confusion has arisen because the only translation for decades (KJV) mistranslated the Greek word hades. It translated it as "hell," which it is not.
Hades is death/grave/pit. So there really has been no evolving of hades from grave to lake of fire. There has been only correcting of its mistranslation in the KJV.
Jesus used another word for "hell," he used Gehenna, which was the name of the perpetually burning city dump outside Jerusalem. Gehenna was a fitting name to give the lake of fire.
A lot of them don't. I don't know how the numbers fall out.
outhouse
Atheistically
kind of hard to say that being we dont know who the authors really were. I think you can easily find that mark was the first with some Q shortly after that in which the rest copied and then you have john who is pretty far out there and his basis is almost all copied material from previous authors
Those who were in a position to know, the early Church Fathers, attest that the writers are as ascribed.
outhouse
Atheistically
well i will have to disagree after allot of historical work in the gospels history
Synoptic Gospels - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
this is a very vague start but shows how the gospels were formed and early works copied from one to the other including unknow authors.
im looking for a timeline that will show you what happened before we had the canonical gospels in place
Synoptic Gospels - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
this is a very vague start but shows how the gospels were formed and early works copied from one to the other including unknow authors.
im looking for a timeline that will show you what happened before we had the canonical gospels in place
outhouse
Atheistically
POCM > The Triumph of Christianity > after christ, scholarship
Well, the original gospels didn't name the authors. The "authors' " names were actually first stuck on the gospels by a Catholic priest, named Papias of Hieraopolis, maybe (people argue) in the mid-second century. And Papias said that of the four gospelers, only Matthew knew Jesus—yet Matthew copies extensively from Mark, who never met Jesus
sorry for the junk link i cant find my trusted sources but this statement isnt far off
most of the rest is not factual or accurate so im not to sure about the above statement
im still searching
Well, the original gospels didn't name the authors. The "authors' " names were actually first stuck on the gospels by a Catholic priest, named Papias of Hieraopolis, maybe (people argue) in the mid-second century. And Papias said that of the four gospelers, only Matthew knew Jesus—yet Matthew copies extensively from Mark, who never met Jesus
sorry for the junk link i cant find my trusted sources but this statement isnt far off
most of the rest is not factual or accurate so im not to sure about the above statement
im still searching
outhouse
Atheistically
heres what i learned a few months ago about the history of the gospels
theres this dead jesus cat, people start telling storys about him for a good 10 years before these storys get written down in eschatological material and son of man material, maybe 10-15 ish years after the cat is smoked, written down by a unknown author known as Q, maybe theres a thomas version attached to this that pops up 25 ish years later. 5 years ish pass since Qs original work and Q's work gets a little more work done known as late strada codified Q. NOW the earliest work of unknown author called mark start showing up on the scene a good 37 years after historical jesus was smoked. later on luke copies a little Q and a little mark. Mat copies a little Q which later turns out in a augmented mark in the second century. Throw in a little sercet mark and carporcration mark and WE FINALY GET canonical mark in which the NT is based
IF historical jesus appears in palestines as a self taught traveling teacher who is hated becauses hes cocky to the local religious leaders. He tells everyone gods kingdom is coming and because he is a hotshot miracle worker and tells people by this, the kingdom is already here. deemed a revolutionary and killed for theatening the authority of current religious leaders.
theres this dead jesus cat, people start telling storys about him for a good 10 years before these storys get written down in eschatological material and son of man material, maybe 10-15 ish years after the cat is smoked, written down by a unknown author known as Q, maybe theres a thomas version attached to this that pops up 25 ish years later. 5 years ish pass since Qs original work and Q's work gets a little more work done known as late strada codified Q. NOW the earliest work of unknown author called mark start showing up on the scene a good 37 years after historical jesus was smoked. later on luke copies a little Q and a little mark. Mat copies a little Q which later turns out in a augmented mark in the second century. Throw in a little sercet mark and carporcration mark and WE FINALY GET canonical mark in which the NT is based
IF historical jesus appears in palestines as a self taught traveling teacher who is hated becauses hes cocky to the local religious leaders. He tells everyone gods kingdom is coming and because he is a hotshot miracle worker and tells people by this, the kingdom is already here. deemed a revolutionary and killed for theatening the authority of current religious leaders.
First of all Jesus was not self taught. By age 12 Jesus did already have a well-rounded biblical education so that he could converse with the elders. What he was taught and he learned was from the already existing old Hebrew Scriptures.
Jesus never taught the kingdom was already here.
Jesus made it plain in his illustration of the the man traveling on a long journey to a far away country [heaven] before receiving and returning with a kingdom.
-Luke 19vs11-15; Mark 13vs34-37; Matt 25v14; Daniel 2v44; 7vs13,14.
While talking to the corrupt Pharisees at Luke 17 vs20,21 Jesus was answering them that he [Jesus] as king designate of God's kingdom [Dan 2v44] was right there within them or within their company or within their midst. [Greek: inside as among them].
It was not until verse 22, after Jesus concluded his answer to the Pharisees, that Jesus then addresses his disciples starting at verse 22.
The religious leaders had no power to kill Jesus, so they trumped up false political charges against him such as injured majesty so to get the Romans, who had the power of execution, to be involved and do their dirty work.
Jesus never taught the kingdom was already here.
Jesus made it plain in his illustration of the the man traveling on a long journey to a far away country [heaven] before receiving and returning with a kingdom.
-Luke 19vs11-15; Mark 13vs34-37; Matt 25v14; Daniel 2v44; 7vs13,14.
While talking to the corrupt Pharisees at Luke 17 vs20,21 Jesus was answering them that he [Jesus] as king designate of God's kingdom [Dan 2v44] was right there within them or within their company or within their midst. [Greek: inside as among them].
It was not until verse 22, after Jesus concluded his answer to the Pharisees, that Jesus then addresses his disciples starting at verse 22.
The religious leaders had no power to kill Jesus, so they trumped up false political charges against him such as injured majesty so to get the Romans, who had the power of execution, to be involved and do their dirty work.
outhouse
Atheistically
you may want to do a little homework scholars cant agree on that.
Kingdom of God - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The method of historical Jesus scholars essentially aims at investigating the social, religious, political and cultural climate of the early first century in order to place the human figure of Jesus within and around these structures. One of the major areas of conflict among Jesus scholars is the proximity of Jesus’ "Kingdom". Some believe it is wholly manifested in the presence of Jesus’ words and deeds, others believe that it is completely in the future, and some acknowledge the arguments of both these camps and place Jesus’ "Kingdom" somewhere in between being manifested in the present and also more completely manifested in the future.
Jesus believed that the end of history was coming within his own lifetime or within the lifetime of his contemporaries.[90]
The evidence for this thesis comes from several verses, including the following:
- In Mark 8:38-9:1, Jesus says that the Son of Man will come "in the glory of the Father with the holy angels" during "this adulterous generation." Indeed, he says, "there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the Kingdom of God has come in power."
- In Luke 21:35-36, Jesus urges constant, unremitting preparedness on the part of his followers in light of the imminence of the end of history and the final intervention of God. "Be alert at all times, praying to have strength to flee from all these things that are about to take place and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man."
- In Mark 13:24-27, 30, Jesus describes what will happen when the end comes, saying that "the sun will grow dark and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and ... they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with great power and glory." He gives a timeline for this event: "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place."
- The Apostle Paul also seems to have shared this expectation. Toward the end of 1 Corinthians 7, he counsels Christians to avoid getting married if they can since the end of history was imminent. Speaking to the unmarried, he writes, "I think that, in view of the impending crisis, it is well for you to remain as your are." "I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short ... For the present form of this world is passing away." (1 Corinthians 7:26, 29, 31) In 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Paul also seems to believe that he will live to witness the return of Jesus and the end of history.
well thats funny because he was supposed to be a stonemason not a preacher until after he was baptised.
nothing is stated about the conversation so to say he was already well rounded would be speculation at best
Sanhedrin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
your splitting hairs, the sanhedrin council conspired to have Jesus killed by paying one of his disciples.
because the Sanhedrin was not of Roman authority, it could not condemn criminals to death, according to John 18:31. This did not prevent them from doing so at other times; Acts 6:12 records them ordering the stoning of Saint Stephen and also Jesus half-brother, James the Just according to Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1.
As I stated he was killed for angering them, and the romans finished it
outhouse-
Mark 8 is in connection to the time of separation of Matthew 25vs31,32.
The 'not taste death' is in connection to the transfiguration vision. -Matt 17v9
Luke 21 and Mark 13 have both a minor and a major fulfillment. So does Matthew 24.
The minor fulfillment was in the year 70.
The major is for our time frame.
Jesus was a carpenter before baptism.
Read what the educated people thought of 12 year old Jesus at Luke 2vs46,47
Jesus was a high profile case and the Sanhedrin had concerns regarding the people.
Where does it say that what they did to Stephen was legal?
Yes, Jesus angered the corrupt Pharisees.
Look at the 'woes' and Jesus reasons for pronouncing those woes at Matthew chapter 23.
Mark 8 is in connection to the time of separation of Matthew 25vs31,32.
The 'not taste death' is in connection to the transfiguration vision. -Matt 17v9
Luke 21 and Mark 13 have both a minor and a major fulfillment. So does Matthew 24.
The minor fulfillment was in the year 70.
The major is for our time frame.
Jesus was a carpenter before baptism.
Read what the educated people thought of 12 year old Jesus at Luke 2vs46,47
Jesus was a high profile case and the Sanhedrin had concerns regarding the people.
Where does it say that what they did to Stephen was legal?
Yes, Jesus angered the corrupt Pharisees.
Look at the 'woes' and Jesus reasons for pronouncing those woes at Matthew chapter 23.
With all the bad news of 'men's kingdoms' described at Mark 13, Luke 21 and Matthew 24 is also the mention of the good news of 'God's kingdom' .
The reason the good news, or gospel, is good news is because man's kingdoms or governments can not solve mankind's problems. The only solution is God's kingdom in the hands of his crowned king Christ Jesus who is the only one that can [and will] usher in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill. -[Daniel 2v44; 7vs13,14]
Please notice: Luke 21v28.
Not scary, but lift up your head. Why? because your deliverance is getting near. Deliverance from all wickedness. -Psalm 92v7.
If you choose to follow Jesus and be counted as one of his sheep-like ones of Matthew 25vs31,32, then you will have the prospect, if you are living at that time, to remain alive and keep right on living right into the start of Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth when Jesus will rid the earth of all wickedness and bring blessings to earth.
Psalm 37vs11,29,38.
outhouse
Atheistically
do your homework bud, carpenter was a interpetation error they beieve "if real" he was a stonemason.
ive already posted that scholars are split on the matter, are you a scholar?
you do know 12 year old jesus is not mentioned in the original 4 gospels and was later added. mark and q mention nothing and acts authenticity is up for much debate
heres some info on when and the source for luke
80(+/-20)? Gospel of Luke, based on Mark and Q, also Acts of the Apostles by same author
if it was true and thats a big if in my opinion, doctors astonished with what a 12 year old boy thinks does not mean he was a well rounded religious teacher. Your putting allot of faith on ancient doctors who would have been jewish, and if you know about ancient jewish tradition, most ancient jews were great medicine men and any jew worth his salt was good at this and it was practiced in most jewish familys at the time. This has nothing to do with religion.
my point still stands you were splitting hair over a historical summerization
the jewish religious leaders of the time because they were upset had the romans kill jesus
is that wrong or not
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
I don't think they did, if I'm honest.
I think it was a lie necessary to let early Christians survive under the empire that they lived in that was hostile to them. Common people and even the occasional guard would be willing to let a Christian go if he wasn't causing too much trouble or making too high a profile for himself if their religion didn't blame the Romans for the death of Jesus, than they would if the Romans were the good guys being manipulated by the 'evil Jews', after all.
That's just my opinion.
outhouse
Atheistically
Understood
Allot relys on what we barely know, the romans kept great records and theres not one mention ever of a jesus being in any sort of trial under pilate. sanhedrin could have done this and the blanks were filled in by the early church. Theres so much we dont know.
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
I doubt Jesus would have been much for him to do away with though. To him, Jesus would have been just another charismatic peasant boy from some strange, barbarian land with a foreign religion and was getting too popular, whom he thought may cause an uprising against him. Pilate was known to be an aggressive, heavy-handed and violent man. One only has to look at Josepheus' The Jewish War to see that he wasn't a nice guy [check out Chapter 9].
That's a possibility, but I think that the Jewish people of the time, even to a charismatic revolutionary figure who appeared to them as a bit mad would have still not been someone they would be willing to let the oppressors kill.
I'm of the opinion it was more likely that Caiaphas would have been defending Jesus against a trial by Pilate.
However, how can you survive under a government that hates you and hold them responsible for killing the one who its followers see as messiah? Some room for half-truths would certainly be necessary, like shifting blame.