What is wrong with Islam?

[icehorse]

How can we speak about others like that? Aren't they our fellow human beings? Are we so perfect that we can sit in judgement of the whole human race?

I'm sure you're not tolerant of domestic violence are you? If you're not, then please understand that in the Muslim world, there is consistently a higher level of domestic violence than in most other parts of the world.

 

[FearGod]

Good point.

EDIT: But I doubt he's alone in his views.

Yes, 2 billions have the exact same views, you have a problem with
Islam and you're blindly programmed to hate Islam, that's the reality
and I have no problem with criticizing Islam by logical discussions.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I do speak of our faults. We over consume. We have hunger and poverty when we should have none. We use long-term isolated confinement as a punishment, and we serve toxins as foods. I even just so happen to agree with Bin Laden that we are way to vain when it comes to our lawn care. But we don't make women subservient to men. We don't stone or even kill adulterers. We don't force people to live to the standards of an ancient book, frequently under the penalty of death. Bud we do have Christians who are trying to force Biblical principle at state laws, and that frequently allowing the church to define a science education, sex education, and who is and who is not entitled to basic rights. It's an Abrahmic "light" version of what Iran has.

The Quran was revealed about 1400 years ago for that time. There were no courts, police, prisons or jails so murderers, thieves, rapist etc had to be dealt with harshly as they would only come back and re offend.

Times have changed. We have better order in the world. We have jails and courts. But what then do you say Muslims should do? Throw away the Quran? It's all they know. For them it's difficult having entered a new age without laws for this age so they stick to what God revealed.

To move into the new age they will have to secularise as it's the only way for them to modify their laws. It will happen as people rise up for more rights.

The separation of church and state has allowed man to make adjustments to be able to live in the new age. Each culture had to go through it so it's a struggle between those who want to be modern and those who see that as the dethroning of the Word of God. It's a very emotional battle. I think Islam is headed towards secularisation which will end terrorism and bring peace.

So do we just tell these nations to stop following God's Words which they have followed for 1400 years? Which laws do we propose they follow? The UN? Did the UN laws come from God? They don't feel good about following western laws.

So there's a lot of turmoil in Islamic countries because the people want modern laws but those in power want to cling to the past.

So who's laws do you propose the Muslim world follow?

 

[FearGod]

The Koran preaches intolerance, war, military domination, inaccuracies and fallacies, and demands blood shed and death for a great number of things that no one should even be punished for, let alone killed. And, of course, Islam also carries the baggage of everything that is wrong with the Bible.

You're absolutely wrong.

 

[FearGod]

Thank you. People are SO afraid to stand against Islam. This is the opening page to my website..

• One man asked about Islam...

• 
  
  
  • "What is wrong with people? We are talking about a religion in which one of the highest aspirations of its adherents is to be killed fighting in a war. What other religion advocates chopping off hands and heads, and stoning people in the streets? What other religion advocates global war, in order to convert people? In what other religion, during religious festivals, can you see droves of the "faithful" marching the streets with AK-47's, and declaring their desire to kill and die for "God". Excuse me people....what are we missing here? How do religion and AK-47's go together?"

Fooled by the media, very clearly.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm sure you're not tolerant of domestic violence are you? If you're not, then please understand that in the Muslim world, there is consistently a higher level of domestic violence than in most other parts of the world.

Domestic violence is bad no matter where. I think we should look at the countries with the least domestic violence to try and find a solution. It may require re education along with anger management or medications and discipline .

If it is because of child custody issues then that has to be looked at so both parents can have access to the children.

If it's attacks on women, education over generations may be required to eradicate the male feeling superior to the female.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I do speak of our faults. We over consume. We have hunger and poverty when we should have none. We use long-term isolated confinement as a punishment, and we serve toxins as foods. I even just so happen to agree with Bin Laden that we are way to vain when it comes to our lawn care. But we don't make women subservient to men. We don't stone or even kill adulterers. We don't force people to live to the standards of an ancient book, frequently under the penalty of death. Bud we do have Christians who are trying to force Biblical principle at state laws, and that frequently allowing the church to define a science education, sex education, and who is and who is not entitled to basic rights. It's an Abrahmic "light" version of what Iran has.

It's difficult for any culture to make adjustments to the new age. The Quran was revealed for 1400 years ago not today so they need to try and reinterpret it for this age.

 

[FearGod]

I would like to see Muslims who are more critical of the lifestyle of the prophet. His practice of cutting of heads, child marriage, slavery, and pillaging and looting cities should be seen as sinful and outdated.

Why not be willing to accept that he made mistakes and be willing to criticize His behavior? I know of many Christian pastors who will be very hypercritical of the sinful outdated behavior of Moses, King David, King Solomon, and many of the prophets of the Bible.

If we see such "Prophets" as infallible people or suppress or discourage critical speech about their actions, it becomes too easy to justify that barbaric behavior.

The lifestyle of the prophet?
How can you trust the historical stories?

The prophet wasn't a warrior, but when the disbelievers used force to stop the message of
Islam then he was ordered to declare the war against them.

How the prophet knew that Persia will be a Muslim nation, how the prophet knew
that the Roman will lose and Islam will win, how the prophet knew that the nation
of Israel will exist in Jerusalem near the end of time and how he knew that Muslims
will be weak at that period of time, he was guessing, right.

 

[icehorse]

If it's attacks on women, education over generations may be required to eradicate the male feeling superior to the female.

And what if this re-education (which I'm a fan of BTW), includes educating people away from Islam?

 

[loverofhumanity]

And what if this re-education (which I'm a fan of BTW), includes educating people away from Islam?

Well,education would have to reinterpret or explain Islam for today.

There are some verses in the Quran which could be used to promote gender equality and are maybe not emphasised enough.

If the Quran only, no Hadith and not scholars were used plenty of today's problems could be re interpreted. Heres an example from the Quran I came across in a Baha'i study class the other day.

Quran 33:35


Verily the Moslems of either sex, and the true believers of either sex, and the devout men, and the devout women, and the men of veracity, and the women of veracity, and the patient men, and the patient women, and the humble men, and the humble women, and the alms-givers of either sex, and the men who fast, and the women who fast, and the chaste men, and the chaste women, and those of either sex who remember GOD frequently; for them hath GOD prepared forgiveness, and a great reward.

See how equality is stressed?

Another one is 4:34 which is wrongly interpreted to beat ones wife if she is mischievous. Another translation says that the Arabic word used has multiple meanings and can also mean to 'separate' not hit and this is what Muhammad did when he had problems with His wives. He walked away but never beat or hit them.

Scholars can easily put a different spin on their interpretations which are mostly driven by self interest which the Quran is not.

If one looks at the Quran within context, within historical context as well , one will find certain laws were only for that time not now.

Islam is full of people of goodwill who see peace and tolerance as humanity's future and they will come together and create a more modern Islam without disobeying obeying the Quran.

There are also the Covenants of Muhammad with the Christians promising to treat them properly. (Recently translated) These Covenants can be incorporated into Muslim laws.

Here's an example:Covenant of Muhammad to the Christians of Persia.

"And if any Christian woman shall marry a Moslem, it shall be permitted to her to continue in the Christian faith, attending the churches of the Christians without let or hindrance, and she shall live at her pleasure according to her own faith and laws. No obstacle shall be placed in the way of her communicating with her own spiritual advisers; neither shall she, forcibly and against her will, be made to forsake her own faith and laws. Whosoever shall do despite the words of this Contract, the same shall be accounted as having done despite God, and shall be held guilty in the Prophet’s sight of annulling the words of the Covenant of the Prophet of God. Such a one shall be numbered among sinners before God."

 

[icehorse]

Well,education would have to reinterpret or explain Islam for today.

If you have some idea to promote reform in Islam I'd like to hear it! Seriously!

 

[FearGod]

If you have some idea to promote reform in Islam I'd like to hear it! Seriously!

What kind of reform?
I think the message is clear but it depends on how each one wants to understand it.

“And, We gave them clear proofs of the matter [of religion]. And they did not differ except after knowledge had come to them – out of jealous animosity between themselves. Indeed, your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ.” [Quran, 45: 17]

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You're absolutely wrong.

Do you need me to start quoting?

 

[loverofhumanity]

If you have some idea to promote reform in Islam I'd like to hear it! Seriously!

There is no easy way. It is a struggle between people who want to move into the new age and those in power who don't. It's a massive struggle. The people have risen up but been put down. But they still want change so it's not over yet. The Muslim people will force change in their own society. It cannot come from without.

 

[LuisDantas]

Fooled by the media, very clearly.

Do the claims of Muslims in foruns like these constitute a part of that "fooling"?

 

[loverofhumanity]

If you have some idea to promote reform in Islam I'd like to hear it! Seriously!

I believe it will be people power that will change Islamic nations from within.

You can only suppress youth and music and women for so long before they start finding a voice and they are finding their voices and being heard.

But it cannot be enforced by outsiders. It's a gradual process. The internet reaches out to Muslims and they see the rights we have in the outside world and they grow more and more hungry for these rights and are beginning to demand these rights in their own countries.

For instance. Iranians love America and Americans and human rights but the clergy force them to attend the Mosque and have 'virtue police' check up on people and the power is with the clergy as with the army.

One day I believe the army and people will turn against the clergy and they will be no more and Iran will be free and have full humane rights.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Times have changed. We have better order in the world. We have jails and courts. But what then do you say Muslims should do? Throw away the Quran? It's all they know. For them it's difficult having entered a new age without laws for this age so they stick to what God revealed.

Christianity doesn't have that huge of a start on it. And, I'm saying we, collectively as a species, should discard Christianity and Islam as practiced religions. The West is so far removed from "Biblical" culture that it seems a farce for anyone to call themselves Christian, and the Middle East is so into it that it's the world's epicenter for terrorism.

 

[LuisDantas]

There is no easy way. It is a struggle between people who want to move into the new age and those in power who don't. It's a massive struggle. The people have risen up but been put down. But they still want change so it's not over yet. The Muslim people will force change in their own society. It cannot come from without.

Except that Muslims don't live in a separate world that releases those who disagree with them the moment they become one of us kuffar.

For good or worse, there is no such thing as a true separation of "Muslim people' and "those without". And at some point people earn the right to defend themselves from unreasonable expectations.

 

[FearGod]

Do you need me to start quoting?

Yes, from the quran.

 

[FearGod]

Do the claims of Muslims in foruns like these constitute a part of that "fooling"?

If there are lies then it'll be so, we're discussing and not fooling the others, otherwise you're
fooling the others with your disbelief.