What is your belief in regards to God?

[leibowde84]

Youre not an average chrischan

I will take that as a compliment.

 

[Robert.Evans]

This was exactly the point I raised in my first comment. If you think that a person knows something simply by believing in it,

No, it's the other way round. Grace allows you to believe, and therefore, as it comes from God, you know. That is why you only need faith that is very small.

then by your own reasoning an atheist knows that there is no God because they believe that He does not exist.

In their own reality, he doesn't. Ultimately, he does. But you are looking at "belief" in God as the same as all other beliefs. You can't do that.

So God erased their memory or what? I don't think I've ever heard anything about that.

If he pulls away from someone, then their faith dies. That is grace. We do nothing of ourself, it is the gift of God.

 

[leibowde84]

No, it's the other way round. Grace allows you to believe, and therefore, as it comes from God, you know. That is why you only need faith that is very small.

In their own reality, he doesn't. Ultimately, he does. But you are looking at "belief" in God as the same as all other beliefs. You can't do that.

If he pulls away from someone, then their faith dies. That is grace. We do nothing of ourself, it is the gift of God.

Can you support your claim that "grace allows us to believe" without assuming your conclusion that God exists?

 

[Robert.Evans]

I havent met any religious person who can. According these two posts, it may be hard for you too.

I guess I put it this way.

I Know spirits exist. I know it and it is a fact. Is is not subjective.

Objectively (thinking of others not myself) this statement is not true. To others, this statement may be false.

Objectively, that means no matter how much I think its a fact, it is not. It is a belief that I consider a fact.

Likewise with your belief.

The grace of god is not objective. If it were, we would All believe this. We would All know god exists. A lot of us believe he does not. It is personal. It is not objective. It is not a fact.

I can see this. Why cant half the people who know god exists see their belief as personal and not objective?

What closes their eyes from seeing that reality does not revolve around their belief?

That puts me at a loss.

It is fact if it is true, and God is true, so it is fact. If ten men stand in a room and one is blind and someone else walks in, nine see him but one doesn't. Are you saying that the one walking in is not fact? It is fact. Whether it is closed to the one or not, it is still fact; it is also fact that the one blind cannot see what is obvious. You argue as others on this thread with the thinking of the world. I understand what you are saying, and in the world I agree, but this subject is not the world, even though the world comes from it.

 

[Robert.Evans]

"Belief" is the acceptance of something as being the case without having the necessary verifiable evidence for knowledge. Belief in the existence of God is not the same as knowledge of the existence of God. One is based on trust, while the other is based on evidence.

And that is where you are wrong. You neither know the scriptures nor the power of God; Hebrews tells you that faith is the "evidence of things not seen". You seem to refuse to admit that what you have is from God. If it is not from God, where is it from? Did you invent it yourself, construct it yourself?

 

[Robert.Evans]

True religion is actually a catch 22 word. As a christian, how can you see other beliefs as correct? If you do, how do you do so with ones contradicting that of Christ?

Id say there is one true religion through the eyes of each individual. However, for me to say that is denying that I see the one true religion since my reality is made up of that. How can I see otherwise? Kind of like claiming there are other realities outside your own? Is that true and if so, isnt that odd they contradict each other?

Observation.

If there is a reality for each one of us, then each one of us answers for our own self. That is just I think.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It is fact if it is true, and God is true, so it is fact. If ten men stand in a room and one is blind and someone else walks in, nine see him but one doesn't. Are you saying that the one walking in is not fact? It is fact. Whether it is closed to the one or not, it is still fact; it is also fact that the one blind cannot see what is obvious. You argue as others on this thread with the thinking of the world. I understand what you are saying, and in the world I agree, but this subject is not the world, even though the world comes from it.

Its actually the other way around. That blind person (or person in shackles as in Plato Myth of the Cave) does not see reality through vision. He interprets it without vision. Although not wrong "from his personal view" if you had ten people who came in and say their reality would be not only fact but even if no one existed in the room, objects are still there. Like that tree falling. It will make a sound.

Fact is always objective. If someone cannot see objectivity because of their religious belief, I am at a loss. Its understandable but do people try or so they say its not worth it because my reality is everyones "even if they deny its true"?

I understand what youre saying. Hope against hope that at least one person can see outside their belief.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Can you support your claim that "grace allows us to believe" without assuming your conclusion that God exists?

Do you mean without using scripture?

 

[leibowde84]

And that is where you are wrong. You neither know the scriptures nor the power of God; Hebrews tells you that faith is the "evidence of things not seen". You seem to refuse to admit that what you have is from God. If it is not from God, where is it from? Did you invent it yourself, construct it yourself?

Scripture is not valid evidence for supporting that Scripture is accurate. That is circular reasoning again. And, I am not refusing to admit anything. I am asking that you support your claim that "believe comes from grace" without assuming your conclusion that God exists.

 

[leibowde84]

Do you mean without using scripture?

Of course. If you assume that scripture is accurate, using it as evidence, then you are assuming God's existence, which is circular reasoning. You can't use scripture to validly support that scripture is accurate.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If there is a reality for each one of us, then each one of us answers for our own self. That is just I think.

Would that be right, though. Reality shouldnt be based on us. The tree makes a sound even if Im not there. Reality exist a part from us. So defining god (as i believe god is life) is always from our point of view. If we can step away from that and see god/life without our defining it, maybe, by just observation, god would define itself.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Its actually the other way around. That blind person (or person in shackles as in Plato Myth of the Cave) does not see reality through vision. He interprets it without vision. Although not wrong "from his personal view" if you had ten people who came in and say their reality would be not only fact but even if no one existed in the room, objects are still there. Like that tree falling. It will make a sound.

Fact is always objective. If someone cannot see objectivity because of their religious belief, I am at a loss. Its understandable but do people try or so they say its not worth it because my reality is everyones "even if they deny its true"?

I understand what youre saying. Hope against hope that at least one person can see outside their belief.

I am not sure if you understood my analogy. A man walking silently into a room is not going to noticed by a blind man. He would still have walked in though- so it is fact that a man walked in. The blind man not noticing it does not mean that the other man did not walk in. That is what i am hearing in this thread.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Of course. If you assume that scripture is accurate, using it as evidence, then you are assuming God's existence, which is circular reasoning. You can't use scripture to validly support that scripture is accurate.

I can't keep saying this. Belief is from God. That is the proof, you need no other. All understanding, if you want to be pedantic about it, is circular as I have already said, because it is all understood in the mind.

 

[viole]

And they are right, he didn't. And yet there is the son. Now work that one out.

Well, He must be the son, then. Not have a son. Correct?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Robert.Evans]

Would that be right, though. Reality shouldnt be based on us. The tree makes a sound even if Im not there. Reality exist a part from us. So defining god (as i believe god is life) is always from our point of view. If we can step away from that and see god/life without our defining it, maybe, by just observation, god would define itself.

God defines himself by everything you see. It reflects the consciousness that it is born from. If we answer for our sins, then no one can interfere with our reality or how do we answer? We cannot answer for things that we have no control over. Thus each must have one consciousness of universe wherein all things are that one. God is just. Man a liar.

 

[leibowde84]

I can't keep saying this. Belief is from God. That is the proof, you need no other. All understanding, if you want to be pedantic about it, is circular as I have already said, because it is all understood in the mind.

That is not "proof", that is merely a claim. So, you can't support your claim that "belief comes from God"?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I am not sure if you understood my analogy. A man walking silently into a room is not going to noticed by a blind man. He would still have walked in though- so it is fact that a man walked in. The blind man not noticing it does not mean that the other man did not walk in. That is what i am hearing in this thread.

Understand. Say the blind man is the nonbeliever and you walked in, my saying no one is here wont change that fact.

On the flip side, the blind man is the believer ans the other is not. The one who walked in has a whole perspective of life and objective reality because he uses all of his senses.

The blind (say completely) person is limited in that extent. So, he cannot see outside his point of view.

-

In my hope and view is that the blind person is not blind he just chooses to close his eyes. Im saying that he can open them to see reality as a whole not just through those four senses he had when his eyes were closed.

Most believers say they either dont want to open their eyes or a few say they cant.

Im saying, it wont hurt to do so. But Im having a hard time understanding why they cant.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Well, He must be the son, then. Not have a son. Correct?

haha... Clever Viole.
He is the son who beget himself, the Father of Father, the giver of life, the smallest part that died for the many, the all, so that the all could live. He has his reasons for that of course: the all is him. To me, that is amazing. To you, it is words on a screen. One day, perhaps you will remember these things in another reality, otherwise I think there would be little point saying them.

The one who comes second, is first. But how can he be first if he is second. How can one born after, be the one that bares all? In that is separation I think, otherwise it would not work. It is marvelous.

 

[Robert.Evans]

That is not "proof", that is merely a claim. So, you can't support your claim that "belief comes from God"?

God supports it not me.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

God defines himself by everything you see. It reflects the consciousness that it is born from. If we answer for our sins, then no one can interfere with our reality or how do we answer? We cannot answer for things that we have no control over. Thus each must have one consciousness of universe wherein all things are that one. God is just. Man a liar.

Thats a step away from our topic. That is your belief. Since the man walking the room sees what is really true or those ten people, how can I consider your statement a fact when I can see it with all five senses? Trying to see what you see as fact is like my trying to be blind and forgeting what I saw "outside the cave".

Its not wrong to be blind. I just feel one day that blind person may see even though he prefers to be blind; comfort zone

EDIT

To put this a little more realistic.

I had perfect 20/20 to 20/30 vision. My vision loss jumped to 20/80 to almost 100. When I have double vision spells, its worse. My reality is completely off because I have distorted vision.

If I had a choice to be blind or stay distorted, Id rather be blind. Id loose part of reality through a couple of senses (Id loose objecitivity which I value in religion) and I can move around easier.

That, to me, is better than distorted vision where I cant see objectively. I cant see the world as a whole. Many people cannot.

We are people with distorted vision. Some people who are blind (some religuous, say) try to interpret reality for us, and they cant.

But get this. That man who walked in the roo., only the distorted vision people can see. The blind person cant. We try to use wordw to describe him but you say, no. Its false. My reality Is reality.

Its wrong, in my humble opinion. Not because you dont have a right to your own belief. Its more do you actually realize by what you say about others reality (saying things are fact) is telling the rest of us that you are blind? It sounda bad, and its not. I rather be blind. But at least I had some vision. Indoctrinated indivisuals may not have that.

I feel objectivity is a good value (or having sight) to have. I rather be sighted but not distorted vision if I had being blind the only choice left to me.

Its not wrong. Just in my opinion I find it sad. But a lot of people dont have the option I have. So, what can I say.