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What is your stance on free will?

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
I would not say that we have no free will but nor would I say that we have free will. We are very limited in capacity to make choices and are beings shaped by others. We are shaped by our physic mind, the brain and our perception is determined by our biology. Our eyes, ears, mouths, and nervous system all give us the ability to make choices and react to situation.

As human beings we are incapable of true free will but we are definitely not mindless slaves.....unless you are a Republican(yes I said it :D).
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I would not say that we have no free will but nor would I say that we have free will. We are very limited in capacity to make choices and are beings shaped by others. We are shaped by our physic mind, the brain and our perception is determined by our biology. Our eyes, ears, mouths, and nervous system all give us the ability to make choices and react to situation.

As human beings we are incapable of true free will but we are definitely not mindless slaves.....unless you are a Republican(yes I said it :D).

So you have seen the point of fail when your flesh cannot do your will?

So the desire to perform...doesn't count?

And when we are free of the constraints you have listed....
what scheme of limitation do you then anticipate?
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
So you have seen the point of fail when your flesh cannot do your will?

Of course, it happens all the time. My flesh is not capable of obeying my will. I get sick, I sleep, and I must abide by the call of nature.

So the desire to perform...doesn't count?

Will power is the ability to act not to desire. I desire many things yet I still have no wings.

And when we are free of the constraints you have listed....
what scheme of limitation do you then anticipate?

There will be no limitations, freedom from this world is the breaking of the chains that prohibit true free will.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Of course, it happens all the time. My flesh is not capable of obeying my will. I get sick, I sleep, and I must abide by the call of nature.



Will power is the ability to act not to desire. I desire many things yet I still have no wings.



There will be no limitations, freedom from this world is the breaking of the chains that prohibit true free will.

If all goes well.....wings it shall be!
 

johnb21

New Member
I'm in the pro camp. Free will is the illusion of volition, but no more "false" than the idea of self that gives birth to it.

Through the Fall (Gen 3), this dominion was forfeited, and lost, and is now in abeyance; no one son of Adam having any right to universal dominion. Hence, all the chaos, “unrest” and conflicts between men and nations, which must continue until He shall come Whose right it is to rule in the earth.
Ezek 21:27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, It: and it shall be no more, until he come Whose right it is; and I will give it to Him.
The great enemy who wrought all the mischief at the Fall, has tried from time to time to exercise this authority by setting up some human head. He tried Nebuchadnezzar, Alexander the Great, and others, and in later days Napoleon, and Hitler. But he will finally succeed for a brief period with the Antichrist, until “the second man”, “the last Adam”.

1Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

“The Son of Man”, to Whom all dominion in the earth has, in the counsels of God, been given, shall take unto Him his great power and reign.
All this and more is contained in His title as “the Son of man” Its first occurrence is in Psalm 8, where in verses 1,& 8, His connection with the “earth” is proclaimed; and “dominion” over it is given unto Him. It denotes Him who is “the heir to all things”, in virtue of which all things shall one day be put under His feet. “But now we see not yet all things put under Him, But we see Jesus, Who was made a little lower than the angels”, humbling Himself unto death, even the death of the cross.

Hebrews 2:8-9
8
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

When we find the Greek word mustērion rendered sacrementum in the Latin Vulgate of

Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

It is clear that it was used as meaning a secret sign, or symbol, and not in the modern meaning put upon the word “Sacrament” , i.e. “holy mysteries”.
It is evident to all that God has made known His will “at sundry times and in divers manners”

Heb1:1-2
1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, Whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by Whom also he made the worlds;

He also kept certain things secret , and revealed them from time to time according to His purposes and counsels. Hence the word mustērion is connected with several concealed or secret things in the New Testament.
It concerns Gentiles; and it was “revealed unto His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit”, That the Gentiles should be Joint-Heirs, and a joint body, and [joint] partakers of the promise in Christ through the Gospel. But one thing we can clearly see, that had God made it known before, Israel would of necessity have had an excuse for rejecting the Messiah and His kingdom.
As to ourselves, the question of “who is in the secret?” does not arise. For we are not to suppose, that all who do not know of it are “lost”.
One thing we do know, and that is: it is made known for “the obedience of faith”, or for “faith obedience”

Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Even so with ourselves and the subsequent revelation of the mystery in the Prison Epistles; let us believe it, and we may be sure that it may be counted unto us for something, for some blessing which those who refuse to believe it will lose.

So yes we do have the free will to choose while on this fallen earth God's {Jehovah's} coming system. Or the system we have today Which is Satan's sysem. The FREE WILL, or choice, is yours, and yours alone; whether you believe or not.
JohnB
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Why wings?

Why not some exotic speed of light propulsion system.

ok...I can deal with that.
and as it turns out....acceleration to the speed of light would be hard on a physical form such as ours.

To go from one place to another...we must surrender what we are.
We must be as .....light.
 

ruffen

Active Member
As I said earlier, there is a problem with free will - the theory of Special Relativity. I'll expand a little bit on that in this post.

Because of time dilation and length contraction of fast moving objects in space, there is a relativity of simultaneity. This means that different observers will disagree on the order and time intervals of events.

I'm not very good at explaining this, so for reference please see this page:
Spacetime and the Relativity of Simultaneity


What this means in practice is that different observers in different frames of reference will have different notions of "now". They will disagree on simultaneity. This also means that for one observer, "now" intersects with another observer's "future" (if they move toward each other) or "past" (if they move away from each other).

The implications of this is that your "now" is just as real as my "now". And since your "now" intersects with my "future" or my "past", this means that my "future" and my "past" are just as real in 4D spacetime as my "now".

If you are a light-year away and move toward me at a high velocity, your "now" will include what I will do tomorrow. The choices I'll make in the future is already set for frames of reference far away, moving toward me at high speeds. And such frames of reference are just as real as my frame of reference - there are real high-speed particles leaving stars that do have such distances and velocities relative to me.

This cannot be used to actually see the future from such a frame of reference, as it has to be a long way away, and light (and therefore any information) from my tomorrow will use a long time to get there, so even if it lies in someone's "now", the information will be old by the time it gets there.

But the concept is real enough, and the relativity of simultaneity in our spacetime is real. And this means that my future is in someone else's now or past.

This means that the 4-dimensional "blob" that is our Universe is static and set - we just view different slices of it as our motion through the space part of it changes over time. Future events lie at time coordinates that are in our future, but in someone else's past.

Therefore, in practice, we have free will to choose what we want, but what we will ultimately choose is already set because it is already in the past of some particle leaving Betelgeuse at some point in spacetime.
 
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Contemplative Cat

energy formation
free will goes against science
But that's not what people say they experience

Science also tells us about wave particles, again that isn't what people experience

When people think their perceptions are accurate, they appoint themselves the supreme judge of the universe... lots and lots of people do this.
but then again something must have geared them to think that way, so we cant blame them, just hope they wake up.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Hi, JohnB, thanks for replying, but as I said, I do believe in free will. I am in the "Pro" camp.

So yes we do have the free will to choose while on this fallen earth God's {Jehovah's} coming system. Or the system we have today Which is Satan's sysem. The FREE WILL, or choice, is yours, and yours alone; whether you believe or not.
JohnB
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I have yet to see a single shred of evidence in support fo the existence of free-will.
I too have been waiting.:sleep: Not that I hold out any hope for evidence, but it would be nice to see something other than assertions of belief and faith.
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
I too have been waiting.:sleep: Not that I hold out any hope for evidence, but it would be nice to see something other than assertions of belief and faith.

And you get you will get people who insist that it does anyway. Kind of reminds me of another argument we regularly have around here. :D
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I have yet to see a single shred of evidence in support fo the existence of free-will.
I was thinking the other day (I know I'm sorry), about how we have such a strong illusion of it which lead me to think about about the compatibilist idea more. Cause it seems to me that we have more freedom than a rock or a slug but the freedom is only internal. If there were aliens that superior in every way they would look at us the way we look at a slug or a rock, "oh those pesky humans are just hardcoded and just go by instinct", but at the same time we would see them has having more freedom if only for the fact that they have more knowledge to act upon, cause they would see our limitations. Makes me think there are levels of freedom hinging on knowing the choices as well as the consequences. I would think that full knowledge would make us more free not more restricted for already knowing the outcome.
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
I was thinking the other day (I know I'm sorry), about how we have such a strong illusion of it which lead me to think about about the compatibilist idea more. Cause it seems to me that we have more freedom than a rock or a slug but the freedom is only internal. If there were aliens that superior in every way they would look at us the way we look at a slug or a rock, "oh those pesky humans are just hardcoded and just go by instinct", but at the same time we would see them has having more freedom if only for the fact that they have more knowledge to act upon, cause they would see our limitations. Makes me think there are levels of freedom hinging on knowing the choices as well as the consequences. I would think that full knowledge would make us more free not more restricted for already knowing the outcome.

Well our associative memory is far more complex than the slugs. We can make more associations, form more concepts by rearranging those associations, remember our experiences and so on, which makes our behaviour, in turn, more complex.
 

Creature

- Atheist
I don't think we know to what extent we are truly 'in control' of our choices.

In a situation like this, where the reality (in this case how 'in control' we are) is essentially unknowable, I adopt understandings that are useful in my own life, rather than trying to find 'truth'. I'm not saying I assert these useful understandings as objective facts; I openly acknowledge that they are practical models based on usefulness that only serve for practical purposes in my own life.

In this case, the understanding I've adopted is this one: I am completely responsible for and completely in control of my actions.

How 'true' this is, doesn't really matter. Sure, you could say I'm swayed by chemicals in my brain, or influenced by external factors beyond my control, etc. But the full story here isn't clear, and this quote is relevant: "Reality is not only stranger than we think, it is stranger than we CAN think".

As I say, in situations like that, where the reality is very complex and we don't actually understand it yet, I simply adopt models that are useful, as I've done here.
 
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