What"s with all the secrecy???

[bushidogrendel]

yaddoe:

im not saying what i like, im laying out historical facts....yes, that means TRUTH.

FACT. your former beloved leader was a 55 wife polygamist racist.
FACT. blacks were denied priesthood till 1978

you claim to speak from great authority when you have NONE. you have no more authority than the homeless guy jerking off under a bridge to an old play boy mag he found behind the dumpster..... you parade your BS like its the greatest thing since sliced bread.. "WAS IT NOT WRITTEN?" YES, IT WAS WRITTEN. WAS IT NOT SPOKEN? YES, IT WAS SPOKEN......... the living prophets this, the living prophets that.... reality check.... your prophets are failures. the history of your mormon faith is plagued with racism and polygamy...

 

[Pegg]

if the supernatural does exist. what's with all the secrecy? out of all of the gods "known" to man throughout history, not a single one has made his actual existence known. never did a sky daddy come down to show himself to everyone... why?? why does god not make his existence known, and then let everyone decide whether or not they would like to worship him for eternity??? why turn it into a silly game of hide and seek, where only some humans claim that the gods have revealed themselves to them, while others are left in the dark....... why not just make his existence known and let us make the decision whether or not to follow him.... we will still have free will of course....

he did make himself known....it may not have been to us personally, but it was to people of the past and the bible is the testimony given by them.

the difficulty for us is deciding whether their testimony is legitimate or not.

 

[839311]

{post deleted}

Rascism. Its incredible how much damage this idea has caused. Im not surprised at all that so many slaves/descendants of slaves in America have so much hatred of white Americans. Imagine having a heritage like that? What a horrible prospect . I just had a thought that God could round up all the rascists out there and have them all whipped so bad that this evil idea can be painfully beaten out of them . Ofcourse, I don't actually want this... its probably just my sense of outrage at the wicked concept of rascism that sparked that thought. You know, I dont even have a shred of respect for books that condone evils like this. Wake up folks. Its time to wake the **** up!!

 

[idav]

if the supernatural does exist. what's with all the secrecy? out of all of the gods "known" to man throughout history, not a single one has made his actual existence known. never did a sky daddy come down to show himself to everyone... why?? why does god not make his existence known, and then let everyone decide whether or not they would like to worship him for eternity??? why turn it into a silly game of hide and seek, where only some humans claim that the gods have revealed themselves to them, while others are left in the dark....... why not just make his existence known and let us make the decision whether or not to follow him.... we will still have free will of course....

We hear of miracles having happened in myths and legends where there were prophets and witches but nothing happens these days. We have cameras and video recorders and we got tons of people looking for any evidence that can be deemed as paranormal. All this searching but nobody has anything solid. Did paranormal things just stop happening once we could actually record the stuff? We have plenty of people able to fake the stuff though and plenty of fake exorcisms and fake hauntings. I get the feeling that the supernatural never really existed. God forbid he send a sign or his son or whatever in an age where we can plaster it all over youtube.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Some people actually hold some things as sacred.
Even if it was on tape, there are lots of things you see on TV these days, and tons of people think they are hoaxes and many are.

As to the Polygamy thing, it was in the Bible, we believe in the same Church that existed in the Bible. That is evidence of that. How many other Christian churches out there have done that? Abraham had more than one wife. Jacob had more than one wife. There were many others also. Abraham was a really good respectable guy. The Abrahamic Covenant is a big deal. Jacob was also a really good respectable guy. He became known as Israel, then all throughout the rest of the Bible his decendants became known as Israelites. Funny, they didn't seem to have a problem with it. Maybe they understand something you don't.
The Black thing. That was another Bible thing. Since the days of Cain Blacks could not hold the priesthood. Name one in the Bible who did. Maybe because the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the very Church that Christ established in his day, is the reason we have the same doctrine.
Was Joseph Smith racist, no. The church's anti-slavery position is actually even one of the reasons several states like Missouri and Ohio kicked the saints out of their land and even killed many of the saints.
You are seriously mistaken.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Supposed Racism and Polygamy in the Bible are 2 topics way off "Why All the Secrecy." Go make another thread.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Relax, take some deep breaths, and when you have calmed yourself down,
If you want to talk about "Why all the secrecy" lets talk about The Value of the Veil, that I posted before.

The Value of the Veil - Liahona Dec. 1991

the reason why I think it is the greatest thing ever is because it makes so much sense.

 

[Renji]

if the supernatural does exist. what's with all the secrecy? out of all of the gods "known" to man throughout history, not a single one has made his actual existence known. never did a sky daddy come down to show himself to everyone... why?? why does god not make his existence known, and then let everyone decide whether or not they would like to worship him for eternity??? why turn it into a silly game of hide and seek, where only some humans claim that the gods have revealed themselves to them, while others are left in the dark....... why not just make his existence known and let us make the decision whether or not to follow him.... we will still have free will of course....

By "theory" God/gods/goddesses are more intelligent than his/her/ its creation. How will you answer that question if you don't know how God(s) think and what He/she they are/is thinking? It's almost the same thing with the "aliens" (those that we see in movies). If they do exist, why don't they manifest themselves so clearly that all of us may see them? Maybe because they have a plan of blowing this planet up? All I can say is that there's no answer to a mystery.

 

[Pegg]

As to the Polygamy thing, it was in the Bible, we believe in the same Church that existed in the Bible. That is evidence of that. How many other Christian churches out there have done that? Abraham had more than one wife. Jacob had more than one wife. There were many others also. Abraham was a really good respectable guy. The Abrahamic Covenant is a big deal. Jacob was also a really good respectable guy. He became known as Israel, then all throughout the rest of the Bible his decendants became known as Israelites. Funny, they didn't seem to have a problem with it. Maybe they understand something you don't.

I yaddoe, i mean no disreprect here, but just because something is in the bible, doesnt mean its a standard God accepts or encourages. Polygamy was not a standard Jesus endorsed. He made clear that a man was to have one wife and the two were to become one flesh. The Apostles understood his view because they endorsed the same thing for Christians. Christians were told that a man should have only one wife and none of the apostles practiced polygamy.

And this is a point which is often overlooked in the bible, but God made a law forbidding the King to be a polygamist. Most of them disobeyed that law, but that doesnt mean the law didnt exist and it really proves that God does not like polygamy.

Deut 17:14 “When you eventually come into the land ...and you have said, ‘Let me set a king over myself...From among your brothers you should set a king over yourself....17 He should also not multiply wives for himself, that his heart may not turn aside"

Polygamy was first practiced by a son of Cain. And the angles also rebelled and took numerous wives for themselves. And polygamy continued among the enemies of God and those who did not have faith in God. When God first came to Abraham, he had only one wife...it wasnt until much later that he took another. So because polygamy was already being practiced by all of the nations of men, God tolerated it...he didnt establish it though.

The Black thing. That was another Bible thing. Since the days of Cain Blacks could not hold the priesthood. Name one in the Bible who did.

There was no priesthood in the days of Cain. The priesthood was instituted in 15th century BCE. Cain lived 2,000 years earlier.
And by the time the priesthood was installed, it was installed among Abrahams children. It wasnt open to all the nations. The priests had to be sons of Levi from the Isrealites who were not a black race. So to draw the conclusion that blacks couldnt be priests is very misguided. By your reasoning, Whites couldnt be priests either!

Maybe because the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the very Church that Christ established in his day, is the reason we have the same doctrine.

but you dont have the same doctrine when it comes to polygamy, do you?

The christian doctrine on polygamy is this:
1 timothy 3:2 The overseer should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind

1 Timothy 3:12 Let ministerial servants be husbands of one wife, presiding in a fine manner over children and their own households. 13 For the men who minister in a fine manner are acquiring for themselves a fine standing and great freeness of speech in the faith in connection with Christ Jesus.

Titus 1:5-7 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might correct the things that were defective and might make appointments of older men in city after city, as I gave you orders; 6 if there is any man free from accusation, a husband of one wife, having believing children that were not under a charge of debauchery nor unruly. 7 For an overseer must be free from accusation as God’s steward

The men taking the lead in the congregation were to set the right example for the flock to follow. So for the servants and elders and overseers to be setting the example of having only one wife, the rest of the congregations were to follow that example and also only have one wife. This is the same with regard to the king of Isreal being told to only have one wife...the Isrealites were to follow the kings good example...but sadly most of the kings were bad anyway.

 

[bushidogrendel]

As to the Polygamy thing, it was in the Bible, we believe in the same Church that existed in the Bible. That is evidence of that..

1. what do you mean you believe in the same church that existed in the bible?? are you jewish?? no. so what difference does it make if the jews had multiple wifes...

2. i thought you were not a polygamist...now you say, polygamy was in the bible, and you believe in that... are you saying you are a polygamist? or believe in polygamy?

3. do you believe polygamy is moral?? do you believe incest is moral too?? cause is in the bible too.

How many other Christian churches out there have done that? ..

i have never heard of an official christian denomination who accepts or accepted polygamy......only one is LDS which the vast majority of christians dont accept as being part of christianity.

Abraham had more than one wife. Jacob had more than one wife. There were many others also. ..

you realize abraham was a jew not a christian right??

Abraham was a really good respectable guy. The Abrahamic Covenant is a big deal. Jacob was also a really good respectable guy. He became known as Israel, then all throughout the rest of the Bible his decendants became known as Israelites. Funny, they didn't seem to have a problem with it. Maybe they understand something you don't.

do you understand it?? do you accept it as moral??

The Black thing. That was another Bible thing. Since the days of Cain Blacks could not hold the priesthood. Name one in the Bible who did. .

name one chinese guy in the bible who did.....

a couple more questions im sure you will ignore:

do you believe that dark skinned people will slowly turn whiter and whiter upon conversion to mormonism?? cause many mormons do.

do you agree with your dear leader Brigham Young that the "mark of Cain" was a black skin, kinky hair, and a flat nose.??

do you believe that being born BLACK is a curse, or punishment??

are you white by any chance??

is it not true that your church leaders invented "negro" tests to find out whether lighter skinned non whites had "negro blood"??? is it not true that these tests involved "wide nose" measurements??

didnt tens of thousands of white mormons leave the mormon church in protest when the ban on blacks was finally lifted in 1978???

 

[Renji]

Folks, the discussions on the later part of this thread has gone way, way off. I don't see the connection between a person's skin color and the topic. As far as I'm concerned the forum does not tolerate this so if you want discussing those things, do it on another thread. Let's respect the one who started this thread on the first place.

 

[waitasec]

1. what do you mean you believe in the same church that existed in the bible?? are you jewish?? no. so what difference does it make if the jews had multiple wifes...

2. i thought you were not a polygamist...now you say, polygamy was in the bible, and you believe in that... are you saying you are a polygamist? or believe in polygamy?

3. do you believe polygamy is moral?? do you believe incest is moral too?? cause is in the bible too.




i have never heard of an official christian denomination who accepts or accepted polygamy......only one is LDS which the vast majority of christians dont accept as being part of christianity.





you realize abraham was a jew not a christian right??



do you understand it?? do you accept it as moral??






name one chinese guy in the bible who did.....

a couple more questions im sure you will ignore:

do you believe that dark skinned people will slowly turn whiter and whiter upon conversion to mormonism?? cause many mormons do.

do you agree with your dear leader Brigham Young that the "mark of Cain" was a black skin, kinky hair, and a flat nose.??

do you believe that being born BLACK is a curse, or punishment??

are you white by any chance??

is it not true that your church leaders invented "negro" tests to find out whether lighter skinned non whites had "negro blood"??? is it not true that these tests involved "wide nose" measurements??

didnt tens of thousands of white mormons leave the mormon church in protest when the ban on blacks was finally lifted in 1978???

opcorn:


this ought to be good...

 

[downtown1441]

Becoming known and obvious would remove the need for faith entirely. Being able to act based on a belief you can't really prove, especially to act for the benefit of others, is a huge part of living a spiritual life.

 

[Willamena]

Becoming known and obvious would remove the need for faith entirely. Being able to act based on a belief you can't really prove, especially to act for the benefit of others, is a huge part of living a spiritual life.

Why would anyone need that? Why not just act on what you know?

 

[downtown1441]

Because believing that you're acting because of a force or a cause that's greater than yourself makes doing Good easier for some people. Maybe everyone doesn't need that sense, not saying everyone does, just why some people find solace and strength in their faith.

 

[Willamena]

Because believing that you're acting because of a force or a cause that's greater than yourself makes doing Good easier for some people. Maybe everyone doesn't need that sense, not saying everyone does, just why some people find solace and strength in their faith.

Wouldn't God "becoming known or obvious" make acting for "a force or cause greater than yourself" easier?

 

[Dan4reason]

if the supernatural does exist. what's with all the secrecy? out of all of the gods "known" to man throughout history, not a single one has made his actual existence known. never did a sky daddy come down to show himself to everyone... why?? why does god not make his existence known, and then let everyone decide whether or not they would like to worship him for eternity??? why turn it into a silly game of hide and seek, where only some humans claim that the gods have revealed themselves to them, while others are left in the dark....... why not just make his existence known and let us make the decision whether or not to follow him.... we will still have free will of course....

This is just like the situation with my invisible friend when I was five. The reason God is invisible is because there is no evidence for him so any plausible God myth must be invisible and hiding from everybody. The fact that God is invisible, hiding, encourages blind faith, and punishes people who don't believe, sounds very suspitious to me.

 

[atanu]

if the supernatural does exist. what's with all the secrecy? out of all of the gods "known" to man throughout history, not a single one has made his actual existence known. never did a sky daddy come down to show himself to everyone... why?? ....

And you know this how exactly?

Why don't you answer the Sky Daddy who has come asking? Why? Why???

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

1. what do you mean you believe in the same church that existed in the bible?? are you jewish?? no. so what difference does it make if the jews had multiple wifes...

2. i thought you were not a polygamist...now you say, polygamy was in the bible, and you believe in that... are you saying you are a polygamist? or believe in polygamy?

3. do you believe polygamy is moral?? do you believe incest is moral too?? cause is in the bible too.




i have never heard of an official christian denomination who accepts or accepted polygamy......only one is LDS which the vast majority of christians dont accept as being part of christianity.





you realize abraham was a jew not a christian right??



do you understand it?? do you accept it as moral??






name one chinese guy in the bible who did.....

a couple more questions im sure you will ignore:

do you believe that dark skinned people will slowly turn whiter and whiter upon conversion to mormonism?? cause many mormons do.

do you agree with your dear leader Brigham Young that the "mark of Cain" was a black skin, kinky hair, and a flat nose.??

do you believe that being born BLACK is a curse, or punishment??

are you white by any chance??

is it not true that your church leaders invented "negro" tests to find out whether lighter skinned non whites had "negro blood"??? is it not true that these tests involved "wide nose" measurements??

didnt tens of thousands of white mormons leave the mormon church in protest when the ban on blacks was finally lifted in 1978???

I will gladly go answer all your questions as soon as the new thread is made.

 

[waitasec]

Because believing that you're acting because of a force or a cause that's greater than yourself makes doing Good easier for some people. Maybe everyone doesn't need that sense, not saying everyone does, just why some people find solace and strength in their faith.

and what of those who believed they did what god told them to do, fly into buildings...
i would assume their faith was very strong.
and if you think that act was an immoral act, you certainly didn't arrive to that conclusion from reading any book, it comes from YOUR OWN moral sense.