What the New Testament says about God is true

[TransmutingSoul]

Just curious. Have you read the book of Mormon, and what do you think of the claim that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God? His revelations came in the same century as Baha'u'llah's. Mormanism was founded 1830 vs. Baha'i 1844.

This is a great question. Happy to respond in detail but not able to at this moment.

Basically The Bab and Baha'u'llah were already influencing people around the world, as their birth into this world was the akin to the Dawn of the New Age. The word inherent in their coming, was permeating those that were open to the Messages to come.

I can offer this thoughts with much greater expansion of detail, all supported by concepts I have seen recorded in the official writings.

The station of Joseph Smith is not that of an Independent Messenger of God, His Book is based on the Bible.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Just curious. Have you read the book of Mormon, and what do you think of the claim that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God? His revelations came in the same century as Baha'u'llah's. Mormanism was founded 1830 vs. Baha'i 1844.

No, I have not read the book of Mormon, but I do not believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.

What I believe about Joseph Smith is based upon the Baha'i writings.

“Joseph Smith we do not consider a Prophet, minor or otherwise. Certainly no reference he made could have foretold the Coming of this Revelation in his capacity as a Prophet.” (Letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual, 21 Feb. 1942)

https://bahai-library.com/pdf/c/collins_mormonism.pdf

 

[Eli G]

...Really literally true? Of course, for some. And absolutely necessary for Born Again Christians... But for others it seems ridiculous to believe an ancient story that was passed down orally, then finally written down way later, is exactly how things went down in the very beginning.

Curious that you think so, since all history books that young people study at school are about that...

 

[Trailblazer]

Curious that you think so, since all history books that young people study at school are about that...

Since when did history books teach the Bible as history?

 

[Sumadji]

Sure. But that doesn't mean that anything in those books is accurate. We can say little more about Jesus than we can about Odysseus.

Not the issue. A person needs to read Homer before discussing Odysseus with people who study it. It would be disrespectful and futile.

The thread title is obviously directed at Christians: "What the New Testament says about God is true." The Baha'i who posted it says she wouldn't waste her time reading the NT

She says the Quran supercedes the NT but hasn't read that either.

I don't believe that the other Baha'i posting here and quoting from the NT has actualy read the NT in full context for a long time either?

 

[Eli G]

Since when did history books teach the Bible as history?

When did I say that?

First: I was talking to another forumer.

Second: I meant that "all history books that young people study at school" are "ancient story that was passed down orally, then finally written down way later", as much as the Bible is.

Most archaeologists, historians, geographers, linguists, etc., adopted the history recorded in the Bible as a source of information for many of their later discoveries.

 

[ppp]

Not the issue. A person needs to read Homer before discussing Odysseus with people who study it. It would be disrespectful and futile.

The thread title is obviously directed at Christians: "What the New Testament says about God is true." The Baha'i who posted it says she wouldn't waste her time reading the NT

She says the Quran supercedes the NT but hasn't read that either.

I don't believe that the other Baha'i posting here and quoting from the NT has actualy read the NT in full context for a long time either?

Ah. I get you. And I agree. Anyone who wants to talk with authority on what is said about Jesus should have some direct familiarity with the only works that talk about the guy.

 

[ppp]

Most archaeologists, historians, geographers, linguists, etc., adopted the history recorded in the Bible as a source of information for many of their later discoveries.

Most Eurocentric archaeologists, historians, geographers, linguists from the age of colonization, perhaps. But it is demonstrably evident that the Bible is an unreliable foundation for historical claims.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not the issue. A person needs to read Homer before discussing Odysseus with people who study it. It would be disrespectful and futile.

The thread title is obviously directed at Christians: "What the New Testament says about God is true." The Baha'i who posted it says she wouldn't waste her time reading the NT

The title of my thread was "What the New Testament says about God is true."
But I never said that I wanted to discuss whether or not What the New Testament says about God is true.

Please go back and read the OP.

I never said that I wanted to discuss the New Testament.

As stated in the OP, what I wanted to discuss was as follows:

1. Christians and Baha'is share common beliefs, that God is loving, merciful, forgiving, and trustworthy.
2. Christians and Baha'is share common beliefs about how believers should conduct themselves towards God.

I do not need to read the entire New Testament in order to know that Christians and Baha'is share these common beliefs.
I am not an idiot. I have two different advanced college degrees. Any educated person knows that Christians believe that God is loving, merciful, forgiving, and trustworthy.

But even if I had wanted to discuss the New Testament, which was not my intention, I have been in discussions with Christians on various forums for over 10 years. Do you think that any of them have read the Bahai Writings? I highly doubt it. So why would I need to read the entire New Testament in order to be in a discussion with Christians?

Then I asked:
How does anything in the following passage contradict what what the New Testament says?

Nobody even bothered to answer that question.

She says the Quran supercedes the NT but hasn't read that either.

I do not need to read the Qur'an in order to believe that the Baha'i Writings supersede the Qur'an.

I do not need to read the Qur'an unless I am discussing the Qur'an. I do not discuss the Qur'an. When Muslims ask me to discuss it I tell them I cannot discuss it because I have not read it. All the Muslims on this forum have accepted that.

I don't believe that the other Baha'i posting here and quoting from the NT has actualy read the NT in full context for a long time either?

@TransmutingSoul said that he had read the whole New Testament. Why would it matter if Tony has not read the New Testament for a long time?
Tony is a Baha'i, not a Christian. He doesn't even need to read the New Testament at all unless he wants to. Do Christians read the Baha'i Writings?

 

[Trailblazer]

When did I say that?

First: I was talking to another forumer.

Second: I meant that "all history books that young people study at school" are "ancient story that was passed down orally, then finally written down way later", as much as the Bible is.

Most archaeologists, historians, geographers, linguists, etc., adopted the history recorded in the Bible as a source of information for many of their later discoveries.

Okay, I am sorry that I misunderstood what you were saying.
I have never been a parent so I do not know anything about the history books that children study in school.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't believe that the other Baha'i posting here and quoting from the NT has actualy read the NT in full context for a long time either?

I hope you realise there are millions of Christians that have never read the Bible. They get all they need from weekly sermons.

How many Christians do you think read the Tanakh often?

How many Disciples of Jesus and how many early beleivers do you think had read the Tanakh prior to embracing Jesus? For centuries right up to the 1800's it was not possible for the everyday beleivers to read a Bible. Also as I said above, I know many people, especially Catholics, never used to read the Bible.

Considering these observations, this arguement now used by an increasing amount of people, is a very shallow, hollow argument. The written Word is a Guide, ones heart is the key to all Truth, understanding deeds are the purpose of Faith is a gift. One does not need to read that, that is inherent in us, the Image we are made in. To bring that out if us, all we have to do is embrace Jesus and ask of Christ to make us new in the Spirit, to live the Love that is Christ, and most importantly practice the virtues and morals given to us, a thing many have forgotten in the pursuit of material wealth and comfort.

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

I hope you realise there are millions of Christians that have never read the Bible. They get all they need from weekly sermons.

How many Christians do you think read the Tanakh often?

How many Disciples of Jesus and how many early beleivers do you think had read the Tanakh prior to embracing Jesus? For centuries right up to the 1800's it was not possible for the everyday beleivers to read a Bible. Also as I said above, I know many people, especially Catholics, never used to read the Bible.

Considering these observations, this arguement now used by an increasing amount of people, is a very shallow, hollow argument. The written Word is a Guide, ones heart is the key to all Truth, understanding deeds are the purpose of Faith is a gift. One does not need to read that, that is inherent in us, the Image we are made in. To bring that out if us, all we have to do is embrace Jesus and ask of Christ to make us new in the Spirit, to live the Love that is Christ, and most importantly practice the virtues and morals given to us, a thing many have forgotten in the pursuit of material wealth and comfort.

Regards Tony

Well I'm talking about debating the New Testament with people who know it well. How can anyone go on a religious forum and start and argue threads with believers about a scripture they've never found time to actually bother to read? Or at least to read seriously?

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. It's the Dunning-Kruger effect:

Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Trailblazer]

Considering these observations, this argument now used by an increasing amount of people, is a very shallow, hollow argument. The written Word is a Guide, ones heart is the key to all Truth, understanding deeds are the purpose of Faith is a gift. One does not need to read that, that is inherent in us, the Image we are made in.

A case in point: I know a Baha'i who only read one page of Gleanings and then he became a Baha'i.
He has been a Baha'i now for more than 50 years.
Truth is not that hard to discern for those with a pure heart.

I became a Baha'i two weeks after I heard about the Faith. Before I declared I read many of the books that had been published at that time.
That was 54 years ago come December and I have never doubted the claims of Baha'u'llah for one single moment.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well I'm talking about debating the New Testament with people who are well familiar with it. How can anyone go on a religious forum and start and argue threads about something they've never found time to actually bother to read? It at least to read seriously?

@Trailblazer is correct in what she offers to you, though many others will not say it Trailblazer does.

The Bible is a closed book, in both the Old and New Testament you will see passages that indicate the meanings are locked and hidden until an age would come when the Books are open and the Keys given.

Daniel 12:4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

It was closed since the Message Jesus gave

Revelation 5:2 "And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?”

Revelation 5:4 "I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside.."

I can quote many passages, but basically Baha'u'llah gave the keys ro understand all the past Holy Books, if one immerses themselves in those keys, then when we read passages of the older books, they take on new meaning, they are seen in a new light, just as the Christians will see with the writings in the Tanakh.

The old is made New, just as promised in the Bible.

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

Right ...

 

[TransmutingSoul]

A case in point: I know a Baha'i who only read one page of Gleanings and then he became a Baha'i.
He has been a Baha'i now for more than 50 years.
Truth is not that hard to discern for those with a pure heart.

I became a Baha'i two weeks after I heard about the Faith. Before I declared I read many of the books that had been published at that time.
That was 54 years ago come December and I have never doubted the claims of Baha'u'llah for one single moment.

The book I read was "God Loves Laugher", which of did contains quotes from Holy Writings.

I only read the Bible in more detail as I had my mother and sister who were born again Christians and a JW friend I wanted to be able to converse with on a partly knowledgeable way.

In the end, they still beleive what they beleive, but my mother and one sister have passed on.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Right ...

To be born again in this age, is picking up the key and unlocking those books. Opening our mind to the Oneness of God and humanity with the knowledge all God's Messengers are One.

The true meaning of this verse.

John 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen (Not Christians). I must bring them also (Jews, Zoroastrians, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims). They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Ya Baha'ul Abha is the cry from the heart.

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

To be born again in this age, is picking up the key and uocking those books.

Which means finding time to read them? Yourself. In context? Not repeating what your Shia sect teachers tell you they say?

Because in context the NT doesn't say what you want to try to make it say by selecting passages out of context that you flip out like cards from a book that, let's face it, you haven't ever really read, except perhaps to find out-of-context passages to further your agenda.

But anyone can find anything they like in the Bible if they take it out of context. Anything. But it's not the intended context.

Please read that again: context.

I don't care what Abdul Baha thinks. I don't adhere to Muslim interpretation of the New Testament. Even Muslims who've actually read the NT -- Sunni or Shia

And so I'm sure this isn't going to go anywhere useful.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Which means finding time to read them? In context? Because in context the NT doesn't say what you want to try to make it say by selecting passages out of context that you flip out like cards from a book that, let's face it, you haven't ever really read, except perhaps to find out-of-context passages to further your agenda.

But anyone can find anything they like in the Bible if they take it out of context. Anything. But it's not the intended context.

Please read that again: context.

And so I'm sure this isn't going to go anywhere useful.

When you know what Baha'u'llah says about the Word of God, each word and sentence has many meanings, Baha'u'llah also explained and proved that statement (Which is an ancient teaching)

A lot of times I do read the whole chapter to get context to the quotes, I have used these so often now, it is plausible, when you know what the Quran and Baha'i Wrirings have offered, to offer those quotes ro Christians in the manner we do, as a variable consideration, is left up to the receiver.

Some quotes I do not use, as I see the dispute about context is valid.

Happy to discuss how any passage you see is out of context, can be seen in a different light.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And so I'm sure this isn't going to go anywhere useful.

Your personal approach and responses have made that so.

Regards Tony