Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, that is not terrible. What is terrible is closing hearts to God if the message comes through anyone other than Jesus.
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What the New Testament says about God is true
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
It's not long and it's very tightly worded
Read the NT. You'll get it. Or not. I don't care. Too many words. You guys are all about words. But you don't want to listen or understand anyone else
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Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
If only that were true.
Without trust in God, I would have no hope
This is a continuation of a thread I started three months ago. If you want to know why I would have no hope without trust in God you can read the OP of that thread: Without God there is no hope Please note that I was careful to change the title of this thread from Without God there is no hope...
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
And it is also not written by Jesus or anyone who knew Jesus.
As I see it, that is the essential problem with the NT.
On top of that, chapters and verses are contradictory.
Sorry, I cannot rely upon that for truth from God.
What are you apologising to me for? It's not my problem. But if you want to know what's in a book, read it. Don't ask someone else to explain it to you. You've already decided what to think, so ...
Too many words @Trailblazer
Too many words
Cheers
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Well... It goes for a lot of Christians too. It is the attitude that they are in the right... God is on their side. They think they are a prophet of Israel condemning some evil people that are worshipping a false god.
It happens with people that believe in a proselytizing type of religion... that believes they must preach the Word. So, what do we get when we have a Baha'i talking to a Evangelical type of Christian? They both "know" they are right. They both "know" what the "truth" about God and his plan. And say things like, "You're blind" "You are deceiving yourself into believing" and so on.
And both sides can justify on coming down hard on people. The Christian believe they are trying to save a sinner from going to hell.
The Baha'i is trying to spread their "truth" that all religions are one and that one religion can't put their prophet and religion over another. So, they believe it is wrong not to love Muhammad, the Buddha and all the other manifestations. But do they? Do they really? Especially Jesus?
Do they really know what the Buddha taught? Or what Jesus taught? Or Muhammad?
To make all these religions "one", they have to water down some of the teachings and beliefs. If a Christian believes that Jesus is God? That has to go. If a Christian believes in the literal Creation story or the Flood? That has to go? If they believe the Isaac, not Ishmael, was the son taken by Abraham to be sacrificed? That has to go. The whole plan of salvation of Born Again Christians? Has to go. The belief that Jesus came back to life in some type of flesh and bone body? That has to go. That Jesus, himself, is coming back? That has to go.
And then the one more... If a Christian believes that Jesus is the only way? That has to go. The Baha'i truth makes Muhammad, Buddha, Jesus, Abraham, all of the people they claim are manifestations of God... equal.
A Christian has to let go of all those beliefs. Some have. Some have gone for the more inclusive beliefs of the Baha'i Faith. But really, I don't see that they are truly believing in any of them... Only in a token way. In a way that they can say that they believe in them, but they don't.
Except to believe that all of them have been corrupted in one way or another. That Buddhism has lost its original teachings.... That the Umayyads rulers of Islam are the beast of the Book of Revelation.
Supposedly, all of them were true at one time, but then lost their way. Now, Baha'u'llah, has come to show us the way again.
Abdul Baha on Buddhism....
The founder of Buddhism was a wonderful soul. He established the Oneness of God, but later the original principles of His doctrines gradually disappeared, and ignorant customs and ceremonials arose and increased until they finally ended in the worship of statues and images . . . So it is with religions; through the passing of time they change from their original foundation, the truth of the Religion of God entirely departs, and the spirit of it does not stay; heresies appear, and it becomes a body without a soul. That is why it is renewed.
Abdul Baha on the Umayyads as the beast...
“The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.” By this beast is meant the Umayyads, who assailed these witnesses from the pit of error. And indeed it came to pass that the Umayyads assailed the religion of Muḥammad and the truth of ‘Alí, which consist in the love of God.
“The beast made war against these two witnesses.” By this is intended a spiritual war, meaning that the beast would act in complete opposition to the teachings, conduct, and character of these two witnesses, to such an extent that the virtues and perfections that had been diffused among the peoples and nations by virtue of their power would entirely vanish, and animal qualities and carnal desires would predominate. Therefore, this beast would wage war against them and would gain ascendancy, meaning that the darkness of the error propagated by this beast would prevail throughout the world and slay those two witnesses—that is, it would extinguish their spiritual life amidst the people, obliterate their divine laws and teachings, and trample underfoot the religion of God, leaving behind naught but a dead and soulless body.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, Commentary on the Eleventh Chapter of the Revelation of John
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, Commentary on the Eleventh Chapter of the Revelation of John
Translated. Original Persian
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
But you've said that no one can close your heart to the message of Baha'u'llah, and I know some who will never allow their heart to be closed to the message of Paul, on behalf of the teachings of Jesus. As long as those hearts are open by someone's words so the Spirit can work, all's good. Yes?
That is the Quandary of Faith. We can open our hearts to God, yet in the process make ourselves God by our self induced understandings of that Word.
Consider if all Messengers are from God, our choice of excluding a majority for only One is highly erroneous. It is us making our own self an interpreter of the Word.
Regards Tony
Yeah, they sure have lots of reading to get through. It would take a lifetime. No wonder they don't have time to read much else. Except to spend hours on forums arguing and proselytizing.Well... It goes for a lot of Christians too. It is the attitude that they are in the right... God is on their side. They think they are a prophet of Israel condemning some evil people that are worshipping a false god.
It happens with people that believe in a proselytizing type of religion... that believes they must preach the Word. So, what do we get when we have a Baha'i talking to a Evangelical type of Christian? They both "know" they are right. They both "know" what the "truth" about God and his plan. And say things like, "You're blind" "You are deceiving yourself into believing" and so on.
And both sides can justify on coming down hard on people. The Christian believe they are trying to save a sinner from going to hell.
The Baha'i is trying to spread their "truth" that all religions are one and that one religion can't put their prophet and religion over another. So, they believe it is wrong not to love Muhammad, the Buddha and all the other manifestations. But do they? Do they really? Especially Jesus?
Do they really know what the Buddha taught? Or what Jesus taught? Or Muhammad?
To make all these religions "one", they have to water down some of the teachings and beliefs. If a Christian believes that Jesus is God? That has to go. If a Christian believes in the literal Creation story or the Flood? That has to go? If they believe the Isaac, not Ishmael, was the son taken by Abraham to be sacrificed? That has to go. The whole plan of salvation of Born Again Christians? Has to go. The belief that Jesus came back to life in some type of flesh and bone body? That has to go. That Jesus, himself, is coming back? That has to go.
And then the one more... If a Christian believes that Jesus is the only way? That has to go. The Baha'i truth makes Muhammad, Buddha, Jesus, Abraham, all of the people they claim are manifestations of God... equal.
A Christian has to let go of all those beliefs. Some have. Some have gone for the more inclusive beliefs of the Baha'i Faith. But really, I don't see that they are truly believing in any of them... Only in a token way. In a way that they can say that they believe in them, but they don't.
Except to believe that all of them have been corrupted in one way or another. That Buddhism has lost its original teachings.... That the Umayyads rulers of Islam are the beast of the Book of Revelation.
Supposedly, all of them were true at one time, but then lost their way. Now, Baha'u'llah, has come to show us the way again.
Abdul Baha on Buddhism....
The founder of Buddhism was a wonderful soul. He established the Oneness of God, but later the original principles of His doctrines gradually disappeared, and ignorant customs and ceremonials arose and increased until they finally ended in the worship of statues and images . . . So it is with religions; through the passing of time they change from their original foundation, the truth of the Religion of God entirely departs, and the spirit of it does not stay; heresies appear, and it becomes a body without a soul. That is why it is renewed.
Abdul Baha on the Umayyads as the beast...
“The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.” By this beast is meant the Umayyads, who assailed these witnesses from the pit of error. And indeed it came to pass that the Umayyads assailed the religion of Muḥammad and the truth of ‘Alí, which consist in the love of God.“The beast made war against these two witnesses.” By this is intended a spiritual war, meaning that the beast would act in complete opposition to the teachings, conduct, and character of these two witnesses, to such an extent that the virtues and perfections that had been diffused among the peoples and nations by virtue of their power would entirely vanish, and animal qualities and carnal desires would predominate. Therefore, this beast would wage war against them and would gain ascendancy, meaning that the darkness of the error propagated by this beast would prevail throughout the world and slay those two witnesses—that is, it would extinguish their spiritual life amidst the people, obliterate their divine laws and teachings, and trample underfoot the religion of God, leaving behind naught but a dead and soulless body.‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, Commentary on the Eleventh Chapter of the Revelation of John‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, Commentary on the Eleventh Chapter of the Revelation of John
Translated. Original Persianoceanoflights.org
In multiplicity of words is wisdom lost ... or something along those lines
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
I must say the approach taken wasn't the one needed. What is needed, no one can say, IMO.
I never felt God in prayers, either. Some say they do, and I don't get it. The one time I know I put my whole heart in prayer was when I began saying the Lord's Prayer aloud while being raped. It got me a beating. Probably not God's answer, huh?
I feel and communicate with God in empty silence. That works for "me." And though I close my eyes and bow my head when asked, and I listen to the words spoken, I get nothing from it. But when I talk a wasp into leaving my porch, or taken a struggling bird from my cat's mouth, when I see a roadside walker and "know" it's safe to stop and give them a ride, then I feel God's presence.
Different ways . . . whatever works and harms no one else.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
And Jesus said all his disciples could do as he did, and would do even greater things. Careful with putting handcuffs on God.
Namaste
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Just the Gospel of Matthew and the letter of James opens up so very much understanding!
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Fear? They "fear" that what you are saying is wrong and taking people away from the truth.
And that's exactly what a Born Again Christian would say. And how do people feel about them? As they are told they are all sinners and are all going to hell? Unless... the repent.
Now there's a "fear" message.
What is the Baha'i message?
"It is a wonderful, priceless boon to be a vessel carrying food from God. It cannot be bought with gold. The first condition of a religious teacher is to believe in God; the second, to turn his face toward God; the third to be severed from all save God. Such teachers will constitute illumined lamps of guidance, the stars of the heaven of mercy, the trees of the orchard of Abhá, flowers of the garden of mystery and torches of the path of salvation.
"Teaching the Cause of God is not only through the tongue; it is through deeds, a good disposition, happiness of nature, kindness and sympathy, good fellowship, trustworthiness, holiness, virtue, purity of ideals, and lastly, speech."
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá: Bahá’í News, No. 243, May 1951, p. 8)
A "priceless" boon... And you, as a Baha'i teacher, do you think you're seen as an "illumined" lamp of guidance? Do you think you're seen as someone with kindness and sympathy? Good fellowship and trustworthiness?Unfortunately, no. How do you earn our trust? I'll bet you do it with people you meet in your daily life. But here, things are a lot different. Most of the people posting already don't trust you or the Baha'i Faith.
How do you fix that? How do you build trust and friendship on a debate forum? And it's not like I'm trying to do it... except with some people. And with those people I do it by showing respect for them and their beliefs.
Sorry, I just can't do that with very many Baha'is here. Loverofhumanity is the closest one. And Adrian at times. But again, we're here to debate and argue. It's too easy to feel like people with opposing views, views that are believed to be false, as enemies.
Baha'is, although it's hard not to, can't go around making enemies. But can a Baha'is truly say, "I know where you are coming from. And I respect your beliefs... But I believe differently and here is why."
Anyway, although we argue a lot, I do think it is slowly moving us to a better place of understanding.
This forum wouldn't be the same without you.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
You know it's not going to happen. There's so many things I've asked them that get ignored. Like where does it say in any prophecy in any religion that the end times Promised One is going to come, get rejected, exiled, thrown in prison and die without fixing things and establishing peace?
But how can they answer that, because there's a bunch that make it sound like he does fix things. So, what happened?
I know how frustrating it can be. But your input has been amazing. It would be a great loss for me if you were to leave.
And I don't even know exactly what you believe. I just like the way you believe it.
I do not know if we can. It appears to be more erroneous than helpful.
Much better to live the life.
Regards Tony
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Or... it's making a person a believer in what their religion actually tells them to do.
Did Jesus fulfill the Bible prophecies about the Messiah? I think Jews have some good reasons to believe he didn't.
Is Jesus the only way. Is it only through him we can be saved? I think that's exactly what the NT is saying.
Are all religions one? Yeah, if a person wants to believe in how the Baha'i Faith interprets things.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Perhaps I've misunderstood your intended view with your words as follows:
"We can open our hearts to God, yet in the process make ourselves God by our self induced understandings of that Word."
From this, I take it that you believe we are overstepping our abilities as humans, when we think for ourselves when reading the words of those who speak on behalf of God. Is this correct?
Consider if all Messengers are from God, our choice of excluding a majority for only One is highly erroneous. It is us making our own self an interpreter of the Word."
Here, again, I understand you saying that if we self-interpret, we will be just as wrong as if we didn't listen to all. Is that correct?