Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Blind from birth. Disciples asked who sinned for this man to be born blind, the man, or his parents? Think on it.
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What the New Testament says about God is true
- Thread starter Trailblazer
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Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
See post 481.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
From the time of Noah, God numbered man's years to 120. Even today, science says the human body in perfection, is only good for about 115 years.
If you know the story of Job, he lost everything. Including his family. But God restored all, plus, and after he lived 140 years. It does not say he lived to be 140 years of age, but that he lived 140 years after all was restored, to see 4 generations.
Again -- think about it.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So sure, that's what you believe, because your chosen religion tells you that's what happens. But other religions say different things. Baha'is has to change the meaning of some of those things, because some of those things are taught in religions that Baha'is believe to be true.
Reincarnation has to go and some souls to heaven and some souls to hell have to go.
But look at the soul that gets put into a body of a person 1000 years ago in the middle of Africa... What are they going to know about God?
Or, what if it was you? And the soul that is you got put into a body in the middle of China during the time of Confucius? What you believed would be a lot different if you were born their during the time of Chairman Mao.
Or what if you were born in Rome just before the Protestant Reformation. Would you be Catholic? Would you become a monk? Would you sell indulgences or would you be like Martin Luther and stand up to the corruption? Then would you become a Protestant? And still believe that Jesus was God?
I think your beliefs would be radically different depending when are where you were born. But still, no matter when or where, that's it... that's your one chance?
Yeah, you believe you've got it right this time. You found what you believe the truth. But before the Baha'i Faith came along, what religion taught the real truth? Your one chance in life, and you probably would have been born into a situation to where it would be very difficult, if ever, to find the real truth.
But with reincarnation... no problem... They were all just learning experiences for the soul. Whose soul would know more? The one that just went through life once, or the soul that experienced life in many different times, places and situations?
Now I'm not saying that's how things are. I don't know how things are in some alleged after life. But I do know that different people and different religions believe different things.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I did. And cannot figure how it could be in the line of reincarnation. But I will try to look into it, though, as to why it was that they asked. They might have wondered if blindness was a result of sin I guess. Passed on perhaps. Jesus straightened that thinking out though to an extent. I believe we inherit sin and biologic imperfections but that is not reincarnation.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
To conquer the world. As Jesus said. As Krishna said. And probably as Baha'u'llah must have said in some manner, as that is the mission of mankind -- to become more so that eventually
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Only God can change this world from the conditions we face now to a far better place where there is no more sin or suffering. That includes the Earth. Only God can and will make this world over and unlike Adam and Eve, will remove all obstacles to health and happiness.
firedragon
Veteran Member
The way you put it, I think that was a very genuine post you made. I must agree with you.
The problem you must also understand is that the Bahais have to believe in so many scriptures I believe it's impossible to not talk about them to justify their faith without actually reading them. If you look at their material on their theology, they quote parts of the Hindu scripture about Krishna, some parts from the Tipitaka, some parts of the Bible, few parts of the Qur'an, etc etc. Because Jesus. Krishna, the eschatological figure of Buddhism called Metteya, and all kinds of people returned as Bahaullah. So it's next to impossible to go through all of these scriptures.
I believe this is the reason that not a single person I have ever encountered in this forum from the Bahai faith have ever read a single scripture fully, nor has learned the language even to a level of kindergarten. That's just my opinion based my experience within this forum only so I am not generalizing it to all Bahais.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
But for them to ask the question, and Jesus did not scoff at their asking, then "belief" in reincarnation was established and accepted at that time and place. Jesus told them that neither of these possibilities were correct in this man's case, extending the unknowns mankind should contemplate and not place boundaries on our concepts of God.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
May our hearts and hands be God's tools so that God’s will be done...on earth as it is in heaven.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Yeah, what's that the KJV? And here is the NIV with the verse before and after...
Micah 7:11 The day for building your walls will come, the day for extending your boundaries.
12 In that day people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt, even from Egypt to the Euphrates and from sea to sea and from mountain to mountain.
13 The earth will become desolate because of its inhabitants, as the result of their deeds.
When was the day for building walls? it is "that" day that he or they will come from those places. In the NIV it seems to be saying that different people will come from all those places.... Not the "he" Baha'u'llah will come from Assyria, but really Persia, and then he, Baha'u'llah, will come from some fortified cities, then over the river and across the seas and mountain to mountain.
Hey, it's not hard to find pictures of barren desert in the Middle East. But Bill Sears is not Baha'u'llah and he's not Abdul Baha. He was a quote miner.
But it's you that show pictures of empty land. You could still show pictures of empty, barren, desolate land. You could show pictures of Las Vegas a hundred years ago and it is nothing but desert. And then show it now, fountains and beauty and grandeur. All because people invested in the area.
Just like the Baha'i Faith invested in an area. How much money did it cost to buy that property and make the Baha'i headquarters blossom with flowers and grand buildings? How far out of town do you have to go to still find barren desert? These days anywhere can be made to blossom if you put enough money into it and bring in some water.
But it does look nice. Just like some Christian Cathedrals, or Hindu Temples.
You got some descent arguments to support your beliefs. But there's some good arguments why the Baha'i Faith might not be all that it claims to be. There is no peace. Baha'u'llah didn't establish peace. He had nothing to do with Mt. Zion and Jerusalem. One prophecy puts the Messiah returning to the Mt. of Olives. There's lots of other ways to interpret things that go against Baha'u'llah being the return of Christ.
The one I continually bring up is that there will be wars and rumors of wars... but that is not yet the end.... that all we see him and know that he has returned. What's Bill Sears claim? That Christ came in the night like a thief? Then left unnoticed? And that's another question I keep asking... Which Scriptures have the Promised One come and not fix things? But instead, get exiled and thrown in jail and die as an old man? Where is that prophecy?
The good news, you're still in the running. But Baha'is can't prove a thing. It's all just a bunch of maybe's. If the world falls apart. If all the nations agree to disarm. If the nations elect representatives to form a "Supreme Tribunal". Let's see how things play out. Let's see if the Baha'i claims start coming true.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
But you know that is not how the NT puts it. It is one place or the other. Believers go to heaven to be with their Lord and God forever. And unbelievers go to hell fire and torment. And I don't think the NT describes them as being physical places, but that they are places where the spirit or soul of a person goes... and stays... without a chance for those in hell to ever get out.
And I hope that is not how it is. A much better thing to do for God to have the evil people to be far from God. And slowly, as they learn the errors of their ways, to advance and get closer and closer to God. How nice. The most horrible of all people someday being with the good people.
Or, what if there is reincarnation and the bad people get to live life as one of the people they hurt or killed or abused or all of those things. For them to see what it's like to be on the other end of their evils.
And then the opposite... Those that suffered under a evil person to be put into a position of power and see what they would do?
But anyway, it's all just guessing... except for you. You know. And that's the problem. Lots of people think they know. And they all know different things.... contradictory things. Things they personally can't know and can't prove... but are only going by what their religion tells them.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Now that's how you build bridges and help bring peace and unity to the world.
That's why I don't believe that the Baha'i Faith can work... It depends on fallible people that can't be perfect enough to be loving and kind and respectful and humble and all those good things.
But Baha'is have to be... If they are going to be like everybody else, we will go nowhere. Saying you're wrong and I'm right doesn't cut it.
I call Baha'is out all the time about being insulting to Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, Jews and even Muslims. I've seen what Link and Firedragon have said.
You are in a perfect position to show how the teachings of Baha'u'llah have changed you and made you into that "new race of men". But you're not showing people that. Sorry, but Baha'is are not that much different than the most radical believer in any of the other religions... You think you are right. You think you have the truth. And you take every opportunity to force it on others.
Learn to be loving. Learn to be humble and respectful. Then I'll be impressed. Then your words will mean more.
You can't tell people to stop hating in a hateful sounding way.
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
What we have in the real world, as opposed to the make believe ideal world of the Baha'is, is differences in beliefs about God, Gods, Goddesses, prophets, enlightened ones, incarnations, and just about everything that can be believed.
Again, why don't Baha'is believe in the religion of the ancient Egyptians? Or the ancient beliefs of the Far East? I have my reasons. I think they were just what people at that time believed. They were the myths of the people in that place and time.
And Baha'is almost say the same thing. Look how you treat the Adam and Eve story... or the Flood. Symbolic... as in not true... but fictional. Or... like a myth? But I think it was people making it up. Where Baha'is try to say it came from God through some manifestation.
No he's ok, we're all just human when provoked.
It's just time to be honest that Christianity is regarded by Baha'i as the enemy number one, regardless of what else they say about respecting other faiths.
Here is the quote from Bahá’u’lláh as cited in The Advent of Divine Justice.
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“The day is approaching when God will have, by an act of His Will, raised up a race of men the nature of which is inscrutable to all save God, the All-Powerful, the Self-Subsisting.” “He will, erelong, out of the Bosom of Power, draw forth the Hands of Ascendancy and Might––Hands who will arise to win victory for this Youth, and who will purge mankind from the defilement of the outcast and the ungodly. These Hands will gird up their loins to champion the Faith of God, and will, in My name, the Self-Subsistent, the Mighty, subdue the peoples and kindreds of the earth. They will enter the cities, and will inspire with fear the hearts of all their inhabitants. Such are the evidences of the might of God; how fearful, how vehement is His might!”
The fear might very well be the continued championing of the Message of Baha’u’llah, look at the response it does received by religious orthodoxy and non beleivers.
Maybe the change is not how many may invisage it.
This is a debate/discussion forum CG, thus the responses received here are from others who fear what has been offered. Fear takes many faces, ridicule and stating there is an evil intent, is a great weapon of those that fear.
Peace and Love to all is the life lived, even if you fear the words spoken, smite me down, I will turn the other cheek.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
As you told me, if I want to know about Christianity I should read the NT. I think that the same applies to you. Rather than listening to Bahai zealots on a religious forum to inform your opinion regarding the goals of the Baha'i Faith, you should read what the Baha'i Writings say about that. I have read the primary Baha'i texts so I know well what those goals are, and they are not what you seem to think they are. At the very least, I think you should read what the Baha'i Writings say about the fundamental purpose of the Baha'i Faith.
“Let no one, however, mistake my purpose. The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions that have preceded it, nor does it attempt, in the slightest degree, to distort their features or to belittle their value. It disclaims any intention of dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past, or of whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings. It can, in no wise, conflict with the spirit that animates their claims, nor does it seek to undermine the basis of any man’s allegiance to their cause. Its declared, its primary purpose is to enable every adherent of these Faiths to obtain a fuller understanding of the religion with which he stands identified, and to acquire a clearer apprehension of its purpose. It is neither eclectic in the presentation of its truths, nor arrogant in the affirmation of its claims. Its teachings revolve around the fundamental principle that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is progressive, not final. Unequivocally and without the least reservation it proclaims all established religions to be divine in origin, identical in their aims, complementary in their functions, continuous in their purpose, indispensable in their value to mankind.”
(The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, pp, 57-58)
“Its teachings revolve around the fundamental principle that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is progressive, not final. Unequivocally and without the least reservation it proclaims all established religions to be divine in origin, identical in their aims, complementary in their functions, continuous in their purpose, indispensable in their value to mankind.”
(The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 58)
Those were excerpts for the chapter entitled Fundamental Principle of Religious Truth
You can read the entire chapter on this link:
I agree that the older religions are essentially self-contained and require no updating by the Baha'i Faith, but as noted in the passage above, that is not a goal of the Baha'i Faith.
Baha'is should not be attempt to convince people of progressive revelation because Baha'u'llah wrote that the faith of no man should be conditioned by anyone except himself.
No, it is absolutely NOT a simple fact that the Baha'i Faith is attempting to replace Jesus with Baha'u'llah as the new Christ.
Baha'u'llah never claimed to be Christ, only the fulfillment of the return of Christ as promised in the Bible.
It is untrue that the Baha'i Faith is attempting to replace all previous world scriptures with the Baha'i writings as the only true guidance for the entire human race. The divine qualities and the eternal commandments of every true religion will never be abolished; they will last and remain established for ever and ever. The foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated; they are irremovable and eternal.
“the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things—that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen......
These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists .......
These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated; they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle of every Prophet .......
The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries—this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.”
(Some Answered Questions, pp. 47-48)
Baha'is believe the former religions have fulfilled their purposes and that the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is the latest revelation from God which was revealed for what humanity needs in the present age.
“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
(Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81)
Only God knows what will happen in the future because only God has perfect foreknowledge.
firedragon
Veteran Member
You know I am truly curious about this statement. Based on what are you saying this?
Well there you have it: the avenging armies of Baha'u'llah. The mask is dropped.
The Baha'i on this forum make it clear their problem is Christians of all types, from Catholics to evangelical to JW. I'm not saying some types of Christians don't ask for it either.
I'm learning a lot from this thread
firedragon
Veteran Member
Oh I understand what you are saying. Your contention is their problems with Christians, not Christianity. I understand what you say.
Brother. I am no Bahai. I have interacted with Bahais in this forum for a long long time. Many years. I have many conundrums with them. But "enemy number one" is not one of their features. I promise you that. Yet again. that's my view.