What Trinitarian churches teach about the Trinity

[Soapy]

As you said in post

• #131

You want an example of people being baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost and if there are no examples, that means that Matt 28:18 is a false verse.
So you want to show that this part of the Bible is wrong.
But in the same chapter (Matt 28) Jesus said that all authority in heaven and on earth had been given to Him. That means that being baptised in the name of Jesus is being baptised in the authority of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, since "in the name of" means "in the authority of".
You want to show that the Bible is false and all you end up doing is to show that the Bible is true.

Oh poor Brian2, have you bitten your tail again??? Ouch!! You keep doing that!!!

You can’t can you!!! No one EVER baptised in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit… so you could not give an example of even a single verse…. Oooh dear!!!!

And YES! It does show that certain verses in the scriptures have been altered, adulterated, added in, and likely, also taken out, in great effort to try to fake a trinity ideology… GOODNESS, Jesus Christ TOLD US that such a thing would happen. And worse: Woe to such a person. It would be better if a millstone … etc!

And you don’t know this claim from Jesus Christ? You don’t believe the claim? You think Jesus lied to his followers? Isn’t it OBVIOUS that such a thing would occur????

I know that Jesus did not need to prove anything to His Father who knew His Son already.
I know that Jesus did not prove anything to us, we believe because of our faith.
I know that without being sinless Jesus could not atone for our sins.
I know that the Father showed to Jesus disciples that Jesus sacrifice was acceptable and that Jesus was sinless, by raising Him from the dead.

Brian2, Jesus PROVED TO HIS GOD that he was worthy to be called ‘Son’.

• ‘God is my Father [because] I am doing HIS WORKS…. ‘
• ‘Here I am, I have come to do your Will’
• ‘After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.’
• ‘I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.’
• ‘To the one who is victorious, I [Jesus] will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.’

Brian2, which one, or all, of these verses DOES NOT show Jesus proving himself as worthy to the Father?

Brian2, I do thank you for your twisted posts here as they afford me the chance to refute these and many other fallacious trinity claims. Makes me stronger by forcing to dig deeper in the truth of scriptures to find the truth and reality to put to you and anyone reading these posts. So, while you may think you are being ‘Clever’ with your deceptive posts and responses, I see every twist and turn you make and follow them easily to set the true path for others who may have been puzzled, flummoxed, or led astray, by your devilish responses (you did not respond to the actual debate question but meandered into a new ideology!!).

 

[Ajax]

The Orthodox Christian view.. *

Holy Trinity - OrthodoxWiki

*However, according to Saint Gregory the Theologian, trying to go further to comprehend unbegotten-ness (Father), begotten-ness (Son), or procession (Holy Spirit) leads to insanity. Therefore the Church traditionally approaches God in divine mystery (and apophatically), content to encounter Him rather than comprehend Him (for it is impossible for the created to comprehend the ineffable Creator.)

Therefore you can either accept it, or reject it, or be indifferent. But you can never comprehend it.

 

[Brian2]

Oh poor Brian2, have you bitten your tail again??? Ouch!! You keep doing that!!!

You can’t can you!!! No one EVER baptised in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit… so you could not give an example of even a single verse…. Oooh dear!!!!

And YES! It does show that certain verses in the scriptures have been altered, adulterated, added in, and likely, also taken out, in great effort to try to fake a trinity ideology… GOODNESS, Jesus Christ TOLD US that such a thing would happen. And worse: Woe to such a person. It would be better if a millstone … etc!

And you don’t know this claim from Jesus Christ? You don’t believe the claim? You think Jesus lied to his followers? Isn’t it OBVIOUS that such a thing would occur????

We do have evidence that things were added and changed in the New Testament and scholars have told us where and about doubtful places.
What you are doing is making up your own places that you say have been changed, and you base that on your own beliefs about Jesus.
So with you it works like this.
"I Soapy believe x and y about Jesus.
Some verses in the New Testament disagree with what I believe.
Therefore those verses must be wrong and must have been added or changed by trinitarians."

Brian2, Jesus PROVED TO HIS GOD that he was worthy to be called ‘Son’.

• ‘God is my Father [because] I am doing HIS WORKS…. ‘
• ‘Here I am, I have come to do your Will’
• ‘After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.’
• ‘I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.’
• ‘To the one who is victorious, I [Jesus] will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.’

Brian2, which one, or all, of these verses DOES NOT show Jesus proving himself as worthy to the Father?

Brian2, I do thank you for your twisted posts here as they afford me the chance to refute these and many other fallacious trinity claims. Makes me stronger by forcing to dig deeper in the truth of scriptures to find the truth and reality to put to you and anyone reading these posts. So, while you may think you are being ‘Clever’ with your deceptive posts and responses, I see every twist and turn you make and follow them easily to set the true path for others who may have been puzzled, flummoxed, or led astray, by your devilish responses (you did not respond to the actual debate question but meandered into a new ideology!!).

Jesus is just the Son of God and His Father could not change that fact if He wanted to and you even show this in your quotes of what Jesus said. Jesus just told us that He IS the Son of God and that God IS His Father.

 

[Soapy]

We do have evidence that things were added and changed in the New Testament and scholars have told us where and about doubtful places.
What you are doing is making up your own places that you say have been changed, and you base that on your own beliefs about Jesus.
So with you it works like this.
"I Soapy believe x and y about Jesus.
Some verses in the New Testament disagree with what I believe.
Therefore those verses must be wrong and must have been added or changed by trinitarians."

I base the changes from obvious misalignments with the rest of Scriptures.

Also, Scriptures always aligns itself with the truth. So it’s easy to see these misalignments.

But tell me this, Brian2:

1. You agree that certain scripture verses have been changed, added, and possibly omitted.
2. Do you have any ideas as to why such deceitful and unrighteous acts were carried out?
3. Man stores data in computer systems that can and are subject to corruption in one way or another, whether by failure of the storage media, or malicious damage by malicious agents. Do you agree that this is so? I’m guessing you are saying ‘Yes!’ and so I asking you this: What process does man put in place such that the stored data can be recovered, reconstituted, …corrected?
4. Brian2, Man can de-corrupt damaged data he stores … Do you believe that Almighty God has not put in place ways of de-corrupting damage to His [Scriptural Data] … Is Man GREATER than God that man should know to do this?

Jesus is just the Son of God and His Father could not change that fact if He wanted to and you even show this in your quotes of what Jesus said. Jesus just told us that He IS the Son of God and that God IS His Father.

Jesus BECAME the Son of God when God said to him:

• ‘You are my Son, This day I HAVE BECOME YOUR FATHER’

Brian2, a ‘SON’ in scriptural terms, is:

• “He who does the works of the Father”

Jesus told us this where he says to the Jews:

• ‘I only said that God is my Father… if I am not doing his works then do not believe me…!’

The Jews were seemingly accusing Jesus Christ of “Being EQUAL to GOD” (even this does not make Jesus ‘God’!!) but Jesus REFUTED this by that utterance in his defence of corrupted beliefs wherein, in PAGAN BELIEF, a Son was equal to his Father. However, touching on corrupted beliefs, a Son CANNOT BE EQUAL to his Father… If his Father gives the Son what he has, if the Father is teaching the Son, if the Son is only HEIR to the Father, if the Son waits until his Father abdicates or dies before taking up the rulership… HOW can the Son be EQUAL to him who does all that for him?

 

[Brian2]

I base the changes from obvious misalignments with the rest of Scriptures.

Also, Scriptures always aligns itself with the truth. So it’s easy to see these misalignments.

But tell me this, Brian2:

1. You agree that certain scripture verses have been changed, added, and possibly omitted.
2. Do you have any ideas as to why such deceitful and unrighteous acts were carried out?
3. Man stores data in computer systems that can and are subject to corruption in one way or another, whether by failure of the storage media, or malicious damage by malicious agents. Do you agree that this is so? I’m guessing you are saying ‘Yes!’ and so I asking you this: What process does man put in place such that the stored data can be recovered, reconstituted, …corrected?
4. Brian2, Man can de-corrupt damaged data he stores … Do you believe that Almighty God has not put in place ways of de-corrupting damage to His [Scriptural Data] … Is Man GREATER than God that man should know to do this?

We have so many manuscripts that scholars have been able to work out if and where and when errors have crept in, and what those errors are. Mostly we do not know if the errors were caused through malice or accident or ignorance. Some errors are just seen as variations in the manuscripts and the correct rendering is not known. Maybe this will be corrected as more manuscripts are found, but I don't think any of those have a big effect on doctrine.

Jesus BECAME the Son of God when God said to him:

• ‘You are my Son, This day I HAVE BECOME YOUR FATHER’

When was that? That is part of a Psalm. That was not said to Him as His baptism.
Psalm 2 is a coronation Psalm we are told so that quote should be applied to Jesus at His coronation.
The quote is at 2 places in the NT.
Hebrews 5:5
Heb 5:5 So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him,
“You are my Son, today I have begotten you”;
That does not tell us about a coronation.
Acts 13:33 this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm,
“‘You are my Son, today I have begotten you.’
Here we have the Psalm associated with the resurrection of Jesus. This is when Jesus went to the Father and was given an everlasting Kingdom and all authority in heaven and on earth was granted to Him. (Dan 7:13,13) This is the coronation imo. It has nothing to do with when Jesus became the Son of God.
Jesus afterall was begotten as a human by His Father when conceived. That is when He became the begotten Son of God imo.
And this human begotten Son was sent into the world. BUT we also know that Jesus was the Son before that because through the Son God created the world and all things. (Heb 1:2)

Brian2, a ‘SON’ in scriptural terms, is:

• “He who does the works of the Father”

Jesus told us this where he says to the Jews:

• ‘I only said that God is my Father… if I am not doing his works then do not believe me…!’

Jesus was showing that He is the Christ and that His works bear witness to that.
John 10:24.......... If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.
Of course the Christ is the Son of God according to the Jews of Jesus day and the OT scriptures. We also can be children of God through doing God's will.
Mark 3:35-37 And he answered them, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”

John 10: 30 I and the Father are one.”
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— 36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” 39 Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.

Jesus defended Himself when they accused Him of making himself God, by pointing to Psalm 82 where the Jewish judges were called gods, but Jesus just called Himself the Son of God. Jesus goes on to explain the sort of Son of God He is. He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. For Jesus it was not the works that made Him the Son of God and the Christ, the works just show who and what He is, the Son of God who is in His Father and who was sent by His Father.
Jesus did not have to prove anything to His Father about who He is.
Believe Jesus, He is in His Father and His Father is in Him.

The Jews were seemingly accusing Jesus Christ of “Being EQUAL to GOD” (even this does not make Jesus ‘God’!!) but Jesus REFUTED this by that utterance in his defence of corrupted beliefs wherein, in PAGAN BELIEF, a Son was equal to his Father. However, touching on corrupted beliefs, a Son CANNOT BE EQUAL to his Father… If his Father gives the Son what he has, if the Father is teaching the Son, if the Son is only HEIR to the Father, if the Son waits until his Father abdicates or dies before taking up the rulership… HOW can the Son be EQUAL to him who does all that for him?

Jesus is the son of David but David calls Him Lord. (Psalm 110)
The Jews could not answer how that could be. Can you?

 

[Ajax]

Jesus is the son of David but David calls Him Lord. (Psalm 110)
The Jews could not answer how that could be. Can you?

Christian imagination is flying high all the time. Of course they can answer....
Psalm 110 - A Jewish Perspective

 

[Soapy]

We have so many manuscripts that scholars have been able to work out if and where and when errors have crept in, and what those errors are. Mostly we do not know if the errors were caused through malice or accident or ignorance. Some errors are just seen as variations in the manuscripts and the correct rendering is not known. Maybe this will be corrected as more manuscripts are found, but I don't think any of those have a big effect on doctrine.



When was that? That is part of a Psalm. That was not said to Him as His baptism.
Psalm 2 is a coronation Psalm we are told so that quote should be applied to Jesus at His coronation.
The quote is at 2 places in the NT.
Hebrews 5:5
Heb 5:5 So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him,
“You are my Son, today I have begotten you”;
That does not tell us about a coronation.
Acts 13:33 this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm,
“‘You are my Son, today I have begotten you.’
Here we have the Psalm associated with the resurrection of Jesus. This is when Jesus went to the Father and was given an everlasting Kingdom and all authority in heaven and on earth was granted to Him. (Dan 7:13,13) This is the coronation imo. It has nothing to do with when Jesus became the Son of God.
Jesus afterall was begotten as a human by His Father when conceived. That is when He became the begotten Son of God imo.
And this human begotten Son was sent into the world. BUT we also know that Jesus was the Son before that because through the Son God created the world and all things. (Heb 1:2)



Jesus was showing that He is the Christ and that His works bear witness to that.
John 10:24.......... If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.
Of course the Christ is the Son of God according to the Jews of Jesus day and the OT scriptures. We also can be children of God through doing God's will.
Mark 3:35-37 And he answered them, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”

John 10: 30 I and the Father are one.”
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— 36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” 39 Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.

Jesus defended Himself when they accused Him of making himself God, by pointing to Psalm 82 where the Jewish judges were called gods, but Jesus just called Himself the Son of God.

Jesus ‘making himself God’… what does that mean? Jesus did no such thing… if is only what the Jews CLAIMED. Jesus said only that God is his Father… Brian2 are you a Jew or just believing what was wrongly claimed Bible Hub the Jews?

I told you the truth but you refuse to believe it as you want to make false accusations against whom you say is your God!!! The Jews falsely believed that a SON IS EQUAL TO HIS FATHER… so when Jesus says that God is his Father, the Jews jump to the false conclusion that Jesus is making himself such… but, of course, it’s not true. THATS what Jesus defended himself saying that he is ‘Son’ because he does THE WORKS of the Father.

Do you not read where Jesus calls some Jews ‘Sons of the Devil’ because they were seeking to do the devils work… is the understanding failing you - or are you just refusing to believe truth when you read it?

Jesus goes on to explain the sort of Son of God He is.

No! Not ‘the sort of Son’… There is only one ‘sort’ of Son of God!!

He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. For Jesus it was not the works that made Him the Son of God and the Christ, the works just show who and what He is, the Son of God who is in His Father and who was sent by His Father.

You’re talking a different scripture here. Gone off topic!!

Jesus did not have to prove anything to His Father about who He is.
Believe Jesus, He is in His Father and His Father is in Him.

Being ‘In the Father and the Father in him’ simply means that they agree 100%!with each other. It’s a simple phrase and fully understandable in all situations except when, like now, you are trying to be deceptive… tuh!!!

Jesus PROVED HIMSELF to God. It is for this reason God calls him ‘Son’. A ‘Son’ is ‘He who does the works of the Father’ and when those destined by God to DO HIS WORKS accomplishes that work, THEN THEY TOO WILL BE CSLLED ‘SONS OF GOD’!

• ‘All who are led by the Spirit of God are SONS (children) of God’

Jesus is the son of David but David calls Him Lord. (Psalm 110)
The Jews could not answer how that could be. Can you?

Oh dearie dearie Brian2, you are a tempter for true. There is nothing hard about Jesus being called ‘Lord’ by King David. Why did you ask me? Did you believe you had me flummoxed… dear oh dear oh dear… you never learn even the number of times you fall in your face!!!??

Even though Jesus is an offspring, descendent, of David, David is given foresight by prophesy to see that the coming messiah WILL BE GREATER THAN HE…

This aligns with Abraham being ‘Glad’ that the coming messiah was to be from his loins… So Abraham will call his descendent, this messiah, ‘Lord’, also.

• Abraham was great - but the messiah would be greater!
• David was great - But the messiah would be greater!
• John the Baptist was great - but the messiah would be greater!

What is hard to understand about that? Are you a Jew then?

 

[Soapy]

Christian imagination is flying high all the time. Of course they can answer....
Psalm 110 - A Jewish Perspective

It’s ok, it’s just Brian2 being ‘Brian2’. He has set himself up as an antagonist, a ‘Devils Advocate’, an ‘OPPOSER’ to truth.

However, what this achieves is a deeper dive into scriptures to express the greater truths, and eek out even the minutest truth, to show to whomever is reading these posts.

The point is this: No one builds muscle by pushing with a force… muscle is built by pushing AGAINST a force. We could all just agree with each other and miss wiser points. Catholics do this on their trinity forums where they ban anyone who opposes their view, they just allow posters who agree with them - therefore propagating anything that is false ideology. No one dares oppose them to say, ‘Oh, are you sure that’s true…!?’

Use Brian2, as a yardstick - but Bev careful. He has a habit of telling the truth in the hope that you kneejerk a response against what he said - kneejerk against the truth, thus pulling you into his web of deceit. Just make sure to read his post carefully and see the Wheat from the Tares in his posts.

 

[Brian2]

Christian imagination is flying high all the time. Of course they can answer....
Psalm 110 - A Jewish Perspective

Yes these days the Jews deny that Psalm 110 is Messianic and also say things about the Christian interpretation and translation that are not accurate and also imo have a very weird interpretation which they apply to that Psalm and to no other, even though many Psalms are called "A Psalm of David".
IOW in those psalms the speaker is never said to be the scribe who wrote the Psalm, but in Psalm 110 the speaker is said to be that scribe.
It is like saying that a song writer dictates a song to someone who writes it down and the person who is writing it down changes the words and puts himself in the song.

Psalms 110 Of David. A psalm.​

1 The LORD says to my lord:“Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”​

The question is, "Did David write a Psalm about the Messiah or did David tell the scribe what the LORD said to him (David) about him (David)
Personally I think the answer is obvious and this can be seen even more clearly later in the Psalm when the person spoken about is said to judge the nations, something that even the Jews say that the Messiah will do.
This same sort of thing happens in other places in the OT also where a person spoken about is said to be and do things that only the Messiah will do and be, but the Jews these days deny it even though Jews in the past have acknowledged that the Messiah is being spoken about.

But anyway, what I was speaking about in my reply to Soapy was the passage below from the gospel.
Matt 22:41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, 42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him, “The son of David.” 43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,
44 “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I put your enemies under your feet” ’?
45 If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?” 46 And no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did anyone dare to ask him any more questions.

The Jews in Jesus day saw Psalm 110 as Messianic and did not interpret it in the weird way today's Jews do. They did not know why David called the Messiah "my lord" when the Messiah is the son of David.
I was writing to Soapy and presumed that he would know what I was talking about.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus ‘making himself God’… what does that mean? Jesus did no such thing… if is only what the Jews CLAIMED. Jesus said only that God is his Father… Brian2 are you a Jew or just believing what was wrongly claimed Bible Hub the Jews?

I told you the truth but you refuse to believe it as you want to make false accusations against whom you say is your God!!! The Jews falsely believed that a SON IS EQUAL TO HIS FATHER… so when Jesus says that God is his Father, the Jews jump to the false conclusion that Jesus is making himself such… but, of course, it’s not true. THATS what Jesus defended himself saying that he is ‘Son’ because he does THE WORKS of the Father.

Do you not read where Jesus calls some Jews ‘Sons of the Devil’ because they were seeking to do the devils work… is the understanding failing you - or are you just refusing to believe truth when you read it?

John 10: 30 I and the Father are one.”
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

The Jews did not believe that a son is equal to his father, but about the above verses, you can see that the Jews said Jesus was making Himself God when He said "I and the Father are one". They knew the language and that He was not just saying "I and the Father are in agreement".

No! Not ‘the sort of Son’… There is only one ‘sort’ of Son of God!!

There is the created sort and then there is the Word who is the Son of God who was not created and has always been with and in His Father.

You’re talking a different scripture here. Gone off topic!!

No, John 10:38, part of the same passage and something else that Jesus said about Himself and His Sonship which made the Jews want to arrest Him. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father, they are one thing.

Being ‘In the Father and the Father in him’ simply means that they agree 100%!with each other. It’s a simple phrase and fully understandable in all situations except when, like now, you are trying to be deceptive… tuh!!!

The people who knew the language knew it did not mean just that they agree 100%. That is why they wanted to arrest Him.

Jesus PROVED HIMSELF to God. It is for this reason God calls him ‘Son’. A ‘Son’ is ‘He who does the works of the Father’ and when those destined by God to DO HIS WORKS accomplishes that work, THEN THEY TOO WILL BE CSLLED ‘SONS OF GOD’!

• ‘All who are led by the Spirit of God are SONS (children) of God’

Even Christians are children of God now without having to accomplish the works that God wants us to do. Jesus also was the Son of God before He completed His works on earth.

Oh dearie dearie Brian2, you are a tempter for true. There is nothing hard about Jesus being called ‘Lord’ by King David. Why did you ask me? Did you believe you had me flummoxed… dear oh dear oh dear… you never learn even the number of times you fall in your face!!!??

Even though Jesus is an offspring, descendent, of David, David is given foresight by prophesy to see that the coming messiah WILL BE GREATER THAN HE…

This aligns with Abraham being ‘Glad’ that the coming messiah was to be from his loins… So Abraham will call his descendent, this messiah, ‘Lord’, also.

• Abraham was great - but the messiah would be greater!
• David was great - But the messiah would be greater!
• John the Baptist was great - but the messiah would be greater!

What is hard to understand about that? Are you a Jew then?

So why is a human greater than his father, even when the father is Abraham or David?
AFAIK the Jews these days see the father as greater than the son and they see their coming Messiah as just a human and not as great as David.
Is the Messiah going to be just a man, as you say, or is He to be more than just a man?
Don't bother answering. The Jews in Jesus day could not and it seems that you also cannot say why.

 

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

It is a given that not only the different religions, but many of the churches consider their belief the only true belief and reject the others,

I suppose that it is unsurprising that many of us atheists do this as well.

 

[Soapy]

John 10: 30 I and the Father are one.”
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

No no no!!! Brian2… no!!!

The question from the Jews came in verse 24:

• “The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
• “Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

Jesus’ replies detailing that he WAS the messiah did not wash with them. The Jews were expecting a WARRIOR MESSIAH so when a gentle, meek and mild, ordinary looking, pacifist YOUNG MAN, claims he IS THAT MESSIAH, it’s !natural! that they should feel indignant? Moreover, Jesus’ words antagonises them … remember that the Jews believed from the time of Jacob that they were the children of God by rights… so when Jesus says that [only] he and the Father are in agreement with each other, they feel aggrieved and want to stone him for what they see as blasphemy.

• “My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.”

Here, Jesus claims God as HIS spiritual Father. Remember that the Jews claim God as their spiritual Father, so this and the fact this upstart (Jesus) claims UNITY with the Father, really enrages them!!!

The Jews did not believe that a son is equal to his father, but about the above verses, you can see that the Jews said Jesus was making Himself God when He said "I and the Father are one". They knew the language and that He was not just saying "I and the Father are in agreement".

‘Making himself God’… Brian2, NO ONE can MAKE THEMSELVES ‘GOD’!!! God is IMMUTABLE… The one true God (which is what we are talking here) is:

• “…not a MAN nor a Son of Man…”!

Do you not read in John 5:18 where it is written:

• “For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.”

I’m glad YOU said:

• “The Jews did not believe that a son is equal to his father”

There is the created sort and then there is the Word who is the Son of God who was not created and has always been with and in His Father.

Brian2, Brian2, Brian2, your desperation is getting to far from mislaid acceptability!
We are talking SON OF GOD… and there is only ONE sort of Son of God, which is:

• ‘Anyone who is led by the Spirit of God’ (Romans 8:14)
• ‘Anyone who does the works of God’
• “This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.” (1 John 3:10)

No, John 10:38, part of the same passage and something else that Jesus said about Himself and His Sonship which made the Jews want to arrest Him. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father, they are one thing.

The people who knew the language knew it did not mean just that they agree 100%. That is why they wanted to arrest Him.

No Brian2, it means that they agree with each other. A Father and Son (example) can be ‘in each other’ … ‘are one’ … They agree that this way, or that way, is righteous, is correct, is true, with no doubts nor deviations. It certainly doesn’t mean that the two ARE THE SAME PERSON….!!!

Even Christians are children of God now without having to accomplish the works that God wants us to do. Jesus also was the Son of God before He completed His works on earth.

No Brian2!! They (and others) may CALL THEM SO for the sake of keeping them in the church. But Brian2, you’ve gone off the deep end if you are saying that one can call oneself ‘a Child of God’ but not do the works of God!!! (See 1 John 3:10, again!)

Do you know the penalty for misleading ‘children’ away from the truth of God?

So why is a human greater than his father, even when the father is Abraham or David?

Do you mean: Why is Jesus Christ greater than Abraham, greater than David, greater than John the Baptist, that they should call him ‘Lord’ even though Jesus is their descendent (abraham, David) and younger cousin (John T.B.)?

Well, consider: Is king David greater than Abraham??? And David is a descendent of Abraham!!!

Was Abraham, King, at any time? He was attributed as a ‘Friend of God’ for his great faith, sure, but it is DAVID to whom God, in jubilant glory, said:

• “I have found my David”

and established an everlasting throne of rulership… but David would not occupy that throne eternally. That eternal throne is a attributed to he who would be greater than all in humanity - the Man, Jesus Christ: The only ‘Lord’, who’s spiritual Father is ‘The Only True God’.

AFAIK the Jews these days see the father as greater than the son and they see their coming Messiah as just a human and not as great as David.

That is a discussion for another thread!

Is the Messiah going to be just a man, as you say, or is He to be more than just a man?

The Messiah already is a man, but a man born sinless, righteous, holy, in the manner of the first man, Adam. Hence the messiah is called, ‘The Second Adam’… and since no other man would ever be made that way, he is also ‘The LAST ADAM’.

• You said: “Don't bother answering. The Jews in Jesus day could not and it seems that you also cannot say why.”

I won’t/can’t answer that because I don’t know you are asking….!!!

 

[Brian2]

‘Making himself God’… Brian2, NO ONE can MAKE THEMSELVES ‘GOD’!!! God is IMMUTABLE… The one true God (which is what we are talking here) is:

• “…not a MAN nor a Son of Man…”!

So they saw Jesus as blaspheming when they heard Him claim that He and the Father are one.(John 10:30) They knew that He did not mean just that they agree with each other.

Do you not read in John 5:18 where it is written:

• “For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.”

I’m glad YOU said:

• “The Jews did not believe that a son is equal to his father”

Yes a father is greater in authority than the son, and that is what the Jews believed and why they did not know why the son of David, the Messiah, was called the Lord over David.
BUT the Jews knew what sort of Son of God Jesus was claiming to be. Jesus was not an adopted Son who is called a son of God because he is a good bloke who does the will of God, Jesus is the Son of God because He comes from His Father and was never created. Jesus is equal in nature to His Father, He has God nature, just as our children are equal in nature to us, having human nature.

Brian2, Brian2, Brian2, your desperation is getting to far from mislaid acceptability!
We are talking SON OF GOD… and there is only ONE sort of Son of God, which is:

• ‘Anyone who is led by the Spirit of God’ (Romans 8:14)
• ‘Anyone who does the works of God’
• “This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.” (1 John 3:10)

Jesus is the unique Son of God, the one who comes from God just as our children come from us.

No Brian2, it means that they agree with each other. A Father and Son (example) can be ‘in each other’ … ‘are one’ … They agree that this way, or that way, is righteous, is correct, is true, with no doubts nor deviations. It certainly doesn’t mean that the two ARE THE SAME PERSON….!!!

They aren't the same person and you should know that is not what I am saying. They are one thing. 2 persons together making the one thing. This is leaving out the Holy Spirit because Jesus was talking about the Holy Spirit at that time, but the Spirit is automatically included as the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ and it proceeds from both the Father and the Son, and so is in them both.

No Brian2!! They (and others) may CALL THEM SO for the sake of keeping them in the church. But Brian2, you’ve gone off the deep end if you are saying that one can call oneself ‘a Child of God’ but not do the works of God!!! (See 1 John 3:10, again!)

Do you know the penalty for misleading ‘children’ away from the truth of God?

I don't have to complete all the things that God wants me to do in order to be a child of God. That would mean that nobody can be a child of God until after they die.

Do you mean: Why is Jesus Christ greater than Abraham, greater than David, greater than John the Baptist, that they should call him ‘Lord’ even though Jesus is their descendent (abraham, David) and younger cousin (John T.B.)?

Well, consider: Is king David greater than Abraham??? And David is a descendent of Abraham!!!

Was Abraham, King, at any time? He was attributed as a ‘Friend of God’ for his great faith, sure, but it is DAVID to whom God, in jubilant glory, said:

• “I have found my David”

and established an everlasting throne of rulership… but David would not occupy that throne eternally. That eternal throne is a attributed to he who would be greater than all in humanity - the Man, Jesus Christ: The only ‘Lord’, who’s spiritual Father is ‘The Only True God’.

It sounds like you are saying that the sonship of Jesus is different to the sonship of anyone else. I certainly mean that we are adopted children and that He is the natural child.

The Messiah already is a man, but a man born sinless, righteous, holy, in the manner of the first man, Adam. Hence the messiah is called, ‘The Second Adam’… and since no other man would ever be made that way, he is also ‘The LAST ADAM’.

Are you saying that the Father created the spirit of Jesus when Jesus was begotten?
imo the spirit who was in heaven with God, agreed to become a man and so took on Himself the form of a servant and the likeness of a man, as in Phil 2.
Would it make any difference to your idea of who Jesus is, if you accepted what Phil 2 tells us about what the pre human Jesus decided to do, to become a man,,,,,,,,
If you accepted that Jesus spirit came from heaven and was put into the physical form of a man instead of being created?

 

[Soapy]

So they saw Jesus as blaspheming when they heard Him claim that He and the Father are one.(John 10:30) They knew that He did not mean just that they agree with each other.

No, Brian2!! Start at the beginning of the debate where the Jews asked him to show who he claimed to be (verse 24). Don’t just pick a spurious one-liner.

I’ve already outlined the passage of play but it seems all you can do is keep pushing your wrongful ideology… nothing to say when you see the truth, then!!!

Yes a father is greater in authority than the son, and that is what the Jews believed…’

And yet there is a verse that says Jesus was ‘Making himself EQUAL to God!!?

“GOD”… making himself equal to GOD???
Brian2, doesn’t trinity claim that “GOD” is “FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT”?
So if Jesus, by your Jews, were saying that Jesus was making himself God, doesn’t that mean ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’???

So two different passages:

1. Making himself EQUAL TO GOD
2. MAKING HIMSELF GOD

Are those two the same equation?
Doesn’t the first imply TWO PERSONS and the second imply ONE SAME PERSON?

So which of the Jews utterances is correct - or are they BOTH WRONG??

and why they did not know why the son of David, the Messiah, was called the Lord over David.

It’s not for me to know why the Jews didn’t understand that Jesus wasn’t almighty God, the one true God they believed in, whom they called Father. It’s not dvdn necessary to know why once the point was TO SHOW that they didn’t know nor understand. What then do you say about the Jewish teacher of the law whom Jesus gasped at his lack of understanding. Are you going to ask me to explain why he didn’t understand ‘earthly things’… not my place… not required to know: it’s enough to understand what Jesus said. Yeah, I know your temptation there, too!!!!

BUT the Jews knew what sort of Son of God Jesus was claiming to be. Jesus was not an adopted Son who is called a son of God because he is a good bloke who does the will of God, Jesus is the Son of God because He comes from His Father and was never created. Jesus is equal in nature to His Father, He has God nature, just as our children are equal in nature to us, having human nature.

No, again, Brian2, ‘Coming from the Father’ is exactly what Jesus did. If a king sends an emissary to another set of people, that emissary is says to be ‘Coming from the King’, and ‘Was SENT from and by the King’.

And Brian2, EVERYONE who has the Spirit of God has the nature of God… BUT SINCE JESUS is the only one who is SINLESS then it is obvious and clear that he is THE UNIQUE one who alone is FULLY IN THE NATURE OF GOD:

• ‘God was pleased that the Son should be filled with the Spirit (the nature) of God’

The Apostles who were anointed with the Spirit of God in the upper room during the event called Pentecost WERE ALSO FILLED WITH HOLY SPIRIT (as much as their sinfulness allowed - some more - some less - than others but not COMPLETELY). These performed acts of mercy akin to those of Jesus Christ…:

• ‘These things you see me do you too will also do… AND GREATER THINGS THAN THESE WILL YOU DO’

Wow, great things than your ‘God’!! Amazing!!!!

• You said: “Jesus is the unique Son of God, the one who comes from God just as our children come from us.”

Wow!!! NO BRIAN2… stop it… please, stop stop stop!!!

Tell me, is Onesimus not the UNIQUE Son of Paul, after Paul ADOPTED him because Onesimus so FULLY CARRIED OUT ALL THE WORKS that Paul gave him to do??

A SPIRITUAL SON is NOT the same as a HUMAN PROCREATED SON. A human procreated Son of that Father is not ADOPTED:

• ‘To which of the angels did God ever say: “You are my Son, this day I have [Adopted] You”’
• ‘This day, you have become to me, A Son, and I have become to you, A FATHER’

There is nothing procreated there. It’s a Dpiritusl adoption!!

They aren't the same person and you should know that is not what I am saying.

Brian2, it’s NOT ME who is saying that they are the same person… ITS YOUR ungodly ideology and those be-spoiled parts of the scriptures you claim are kosher!! So if YOU believe them then you also believe what they say… it’s your choice!!

They are one thing.

What “THING” are they: Are you saying you believe that “God” is a THING… different from a PERSON (things!).

Almighty God is a SPIRIT thing!!!

Man is a Human THING

A Person is a THING…

Every entity is a THING.
You need to define what you mean in a better way if you want to be understood!!

2 persons together making the one thing.

Where does this logic come from unless you are saying ‘A Couple’, ‘a Duet’, ‘A Childless Family’.

But three is a Group…

This is leaving out the Holy Spirit because Jesus was talking about the Holy Spirit at that time, but the Spirit is automatically included as the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ and it proceeds from both the Father and the Son, and so is in them both.

Har har har, dear Brian2, Jesus does not state anything about the Holy Spirit because it is a thing to be UNITED IN. It is the UNITING element: The Father and the Son are UNITED IN the Holy Spirit… it is the GLUE (per se) of their union… Just as when anyone is united in the Spirit of God they are thence UNITED in Christ and in the Father.

I don't have to complete all the things that God wants me to do in order to be a child of God. That would mean that nobody can be a child of God until after they die.

No no no, Brian2, the race must be run AND COMPLETED at the finish line. There are many, there will be many, who start the race but drop out part way: there are those who ONCE BELIEVED and WERE carrying out the works of the Father BUT who then are persuaded away from it, or just don’t believe anymore, or are deceived as to which race they are actually running. Either way, these are like the ones that Jesus says:

• ‘I do not know you - away from me!’. What he also says:
• ‘You are lukewarm (tepid) that is bitter - and I spit you out!’

If you FAIL TO FINISH… then it means you have FALLEN AWAY FROM THE WORK GOD GAVE YOU TO DO!!

But you state ‘we must finish’… If you are still IN THE RACE when the race is over (the race Time is finished) then you are deemed to have FINISHED since there is no longer any point in the striving to finish. It is not failure to finish since it is not your decision to finish the race: ‘No one knows the day nor time, NOT EVEN THE SON OF GOD! But ONLY THE FATHER which he holds in His hands’ - So we must keep striving.

Do you think that Jonah’s actions would be acceptable to God if he had not ended up preaching to those in Nineveh… if he had failed to finish what God sent him to accomplish?

And what about Ahab, what if he had failed to TURN BACK when God sent an angel to stop him doing something wicked??

Brian2, God knows your Heart… If there was a reason your task was not COMPLETED because of a failure not attributed to yourself then God would know and not accuse you. However, God would appoint another to accomplish that task so that the word of God was not brought into disrepute… but he would not be pleased with YOU for failing the assignment. You may be given eternal life but NOT in a higher position you could been in if you had accomplished your mission. You won’t know it in the new world since there won’t be any jealousy envy regret or narsacism!

Strive to be God-like… God reads your heart. We are sinful so ..,NO ONE can be totally SON of God except Jesus Christ, which is why he is called THE UNIQUE Son of God. But God gives credit to those who STRIVE to be righteous!!!

So, BRIAN2, AS LONG AS YOU ARE STILL IN THE RACE WHEN YOU DIE…

It sounds like you are saying that the sonship of Jesus is different to the sonship of anyone else. I certainly mean that we are adopted children and that He is the natural child.

It’s what YOU want to claim that I’m saying… The Sonship of Jesus is to do the works of the Father…. And that is what Phil 2 says:

• “Have in you the mind of Christ”
• ‘Be humble even if you have great power and suthority’
• Do not lord of over others
• Set yourself last - set the interest of others ahead of yourself
• Be a servant to your fellow man and do not seem to be master above anyone (Others may appoint you to such higher positions but do not seek it yourself!)

Are you saying that the Father created the spirit of Jesus when Jesus was begotten?

You never stop your deception, do you. You think I’ll miss one and agree to your deceit… no, Brian2, I don’t miss a thing from you.

God created the Spirit ‘of’ / ‘for’ Jesus just as he created ALL HUMAN SPIRITS, and the Spirit of Angels, and of All living things. The spirit of all these are ACTIONING ASPECTS …For mankind, and animals, it is like electricity, it is no actionable use until it is put into a body where it can affect that body to perform in an internal and external capacity… to activate a physical body that it is in.

Even Angels, when they come into the physical world, assume a kind of temporary body to act on in the physical world.

Jesus is no different to Adam in that the Spirit of God infused a lifeless body - this is different to the descendants of Adam in that the Spirit of such an offspring is ACTIVATED by the LIVING Sperm from the Father. The BODY of created man and animals is the SEED (thd egg) of the female - which you know is INERT until the sperm ENSPIRITS it.

Adam and Jesus are the only two who did not come from a sperm inspiriting entity. The BODY of Adam was made from inert ‘red [coloured] earth’ (‘Adam’) in the area he was created - the BODY of Jesus was the inert seed of the Virgin Mary. Hence, Jesus is called, ‘The Second, and Last, Adam’.

imo the spirit who was in heaven with God, agreed to become a man and so took on Himself the form of a servant and the likeness of a man, as in Phil 2.
Would it make any difference to your idea of who Jesus is, if you accepted what Phil 2 tells us about what the pre human Jesus decided to do, to become a man,,,,,,,,
If you accepted that Jesus spirit came from heaven and was put into the physical form of a man instead of being created?

God was ALONE before He created the world and all within. Phil 2 does not speak anything about Jesus deciding or agreeing to BECOME a man, a human Being. The verse says that, though he had the awesome power of God (since God ANOINTED HIM with the Holy Spirit) IN FULL, he (Jesus) did not consider being EQUAL TO GOD something to grasp at/for. I don’t know why Trinitarians have redefine ‘Grasp at/for’ as meaning ‘Holding onto’ since that is not what it means. ‘To grasp at/for’ is to ‘REACH OUT TO TRY TO TAKE HOLD OF’ something.

Give me a sentence using ‘Grasp at/for’ and see for yourself:

• ‘The boy tried to GRASP at/for the branch to stop him falling from the tree - but he missed and fell to the ground’
• ‘Please try to GRASP at/for the reality that Jesus is not almighty God. If you manage to GRAB and HANG ONTO (the positive step after grasping at/for) that idea then you will be enriched in your righteousness!’

 

[Dimi95]

Christian imagination is flying high all the time. Of course they can answer....
Psalm 110 - A Jewish Perspective

No , we see Jesus answering this question in the next two verses.

Matthew 22:45-46
"If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?' No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions."

Psalm 110 is written in 3rd person as one can notice from the first verse:
"The Lord says to my lord:

'Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet'."

So 'Lord' is 'The Lord' not 'my lord' as my lord has a different meaning in Hebrew.
Even the source you presented confirms that.

The second lord, being in the singular, is referring to a human king or nobleman. In historical context it becomes clear that this psalm, written by David, was meant to be sung by the kohenim during temple liturgy. The kohenim would sing "The LORD says to my lord (king solomon, David, etc) etc".

I think it relates to English 'sir' in some way(I have to check that however).

The problem is that many Christians go beyond what is considered to be 'divine mystery' and interpret that passage in other ways.

.

 

[Brian2]

No , we see Jesus answering this question in the next two verses.

Matthew 22:45-46
"If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?' No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions."

Psalm 110 is written in 3rd person as one can notice from the first verse:
"The Lord says to my lord:

'Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet'."

So 'Lord' is 'The Lord' not 'my lord' as my lord has a different meaning in Hebrew.
Even the source you presented confirms that.

The second lord, being in the singular, is referring to a human king or nobleman. In historical context it becomes clear that this psalm, written by David, was meant to be sung by the kohenim during temple liturgy. The kohenim would sing "The LORD says to my lord (king solomon, David, etc) etc".

I think it relates to English 'sir' in some way(I have to check that however).

The problem is that many Christians go beyond what is considered to be 'divine mystery' and interpret that passage in other ways.

.

Christians for a start interpret Psalm 110 as Messianic because Jesus did.
The Jews of Jesus day also interpreted it as Messianic from the gospel.
Matt 22:41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, 42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him, “The son of David.” 43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,
44 “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I put your enemies under your feet” ’?
Christians also notice that the Psalm shows the person it is about doing Messianic things like judging the nations.
For some reason the Jews these days don't interpret the Psalm as Messianic and that is the same with other passages which Jews used to interpret as Messianic but now do not.
It does help them scrub Jesus off their horizon as a possible Messiah of course but I would not like to suggest that was the reason for the change in interpretation.

 

[Brian2]

And yet there is a verse that says Jesus was ‘Making himself EQUAL to God!!?

I explained that to you but you do what you usually do and ignore my explanation and do not answer my explanations.

“GOD”… making himself equal to GOD???
Brian2, doesn’t trinity claim that “GOD” is “FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT”?
So if Jesus, by your Jews, were saying that Jesus was making himself God, doesn’t that mean ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’???

So two different passages:

1. Making himself EQUAL TO GOD
2. MAKING HIMSELF GOD

Are those two the same equation?
Doesn’t the first imply TWO PERSONS and the second imply ONE SAME PERSON?

So which of the Jews utterances is correct - or are they BOTH WRONG??

The Jews said those things in response to different things that Jesus had said about Himself.
But you are saying stupid things if your really think that the Jews thought that Jesus was making Himself "Father, Son and Holy Spirit". But I presume you don't think that, you are just saying rubbish to try to obfuscate the meaning of the scripture.

It’s not for me to know why the Jews didn’t understand that Jesus wasn’t almighty God, the one true God they believed in, whom they called Father. It’s not dvdn necessary to know why once the point was TO SHOW that they didn’t know nor understand. What then do you say about the Jewish teacher of the law whom Jesus gasped at his lack of understanding. Are you going to ask me to explain why he didn’t understand ‘earthly things’… not my place… not required to know: it’s enough to understand what Jesus said. Yeah, I know your temptation there, too!!!!

The nonsense that comes from you is getting worse.

No, again, Brian2, ‘Coming from the Father’ is exactly what Jesus did. If a king sends an emissary to another set of people, that emissary is says to be ‘Coming from the King’, and ‘Was SENT from and by the King’.

And Brian2, EVERYONE who has the Spirit of God has the nature of God… BUT SINCE JESUS is the only one who is SINLESS then it is obvious and clear that he is THE UNIQUE one who alone is FULLY IN THE NATURE OF GOD:

• ‘God was pleased that the Son should be filled with the Spirit (the nature) of God’
  The Apostles who were anointed with the Spirit of God in the upper room during the event called Pentecost WERE ALSO FILLED WITH HOLY SPIRIT (as much as their sinfulness allowed - some more - some less - than others but not COMPLETELY). These performed acts of mercy akin to those of Jesus Christ…:
  • ‘These things you see me do you too will also do… AND GREATER THINGS THAN THESE WILL YOU DO’
  • Wow, great things than your ‘God’!! Amazing!!!!
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  • You said: “Jesus is the unique Son of God, the one who comes from God just as our children come from us.”
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  Wow!!! NO BRIAN2… stop it… please, stop stop stop!!!
  
  Tell me, is Onesimus not the UNIQUE Son of Paul, after Paul ADOPTED him because Onesimus so FULLY CARRIED OUT ALL THE WORKS that Paul gave him to do??
  
  A SPIRITUAL SON is NOT the same as a HUMAN PROCREATED SON. A human procreated Son of that Father is not ADOPTED:
  • ‘To which of the angels did God ever say: “You are my Son, this day I have [Adopted] You”’
  • ‘This day, you have become to me, A Son, and I have become to you, A FATHER’
  • There is nothing procreated there. It’s a Dpiritusl adoption!!
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You are doing what many atheist do on this forum--take my answer and divide it up into sentences or even clauses and pretending to answer what I said by saying nonsense about each clause in my answer.
Nevertheless as answer I will say what the Bible tells us, that Christians taste of the divine nature.(2Peter 1:4) but Jesus has the Spirit without measure, He has the divine nature fully. (John 3:34) The fullness of absolute deity dwells in Him. (Col 2:9)
But yes we can end up doing greater things that Jesus did while on earth, just as Jesus said.
Another rendering of "only begotten" is "unique". Jesus was the only begotten probably because He was begotten by His Father in Mary. The Logos, the Word, the Son through whom all things were made (Heb 1:2-3) was put into Mary's womb from God, through God's Spirit. Jesus soul came from God.

Brian2, it’s NOT ME who is saying that they are the same person… ITS YOUR ungodly ideology and those be-spoiled parts of the scriptures you claim are kosher!! So if YOU believe them then you also believe what they say… it’s your choice!!

Yes I believe the Bible and you tell me that your beliefs are not Biblical because you deny those parts of the Bible that you do not like.

What “THING” are they: Are you saying you believe that “God” is a THING… different from a PERSON (things!).

Almighty God is a SPIRIT thing!!!

Man is a Human THING

A Person is a THING…

Every entity is a THING.
You need to define what you mean in a better way if you want to be understood!!

I just need to direct you to a site that explains the Greek grammar of "I and the Father are one".
Read it, you might learn something. The Greek expresses more than our English translations and the Jews listening to Jesus knew what He meant and wanted to stone Him for it.

John 10:30 Commentaries: "I and the Father are one."

Do you think that Jonah’s actions would be acceptable to God if he had not ended up preaching to those in Nineveh… if he had failed to finish what God sent him to accomplish?

No, but he would still be a Jewish prophet and Christians are children of God even if they don't do all the things that they could have done in this life.
If we do not finish the race, then I will leave that for God to judge, not me.

It’s what YOU want to claim that I’m saying… The Sonship of Jesus is to do the works of the Father…. And that is what Phil 2 says:

• “Have in you the mind of Christ”
• ‘Be humble even if you have great power and suthority’
• Do not lord of over others
• Set yourself last - set the interest of others ahead of yourself
• Be a servant to your fellow man and do not seem to be master above anyone (Others may appoint you to such higher positions but do not seek it yourself!)

Phil 2 is about humility with your equals. The Christ's humility before His Father even when in the form of God and equal to God.
He was humble and became a man and then went further and was obedient to the death. There is nothing in the passage about being a servant to His fellow man. He took the form of a servant and became a man. He was equal in nature to His Father and became the servant of His Father.

God was ALONE before He created the world and all within. Phil 2 does not speak anything about Jesus deciding or agreeing to BECOME a man, a human Being. The verse says that, though he had the awesome power of God (since God ANOINTED HIM with the Holy Spirit) IN FULL, he (Jesus) did not consider being EQUAL TO GOD something to grasp at/for. I don’t know why Trinitarians have redefine ‘Grasp at/for’ as meaning ‘Holding onto’ since that is not what it means. ‘To grasp at/for’ is to ‘REACH OUT TO TRY TO TAKE HOLD OF’ something.

Give me a sentence using ‘Grasp at/for’ and see for yourself:

• ‘The boy tried to GRASP at/for the branch to stop him falling from the tree - but he missed and fell to the ground’
• ‘Please try to GRASP at/for the reality that Jesus is not almighty God. If you manage to GRAB and HANG ONTO (the positive step after grasping at/for) that idea then you will be enriched in your righteousness!’

Phil 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

It is indeed strange that you are unable to see that the passage speaks of being in the form of God and taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Nothing about His baptism there. He was in one form (form of God) and emptied Himself and became a servant, being born as a man.
No doubt I could tell you what the passage does in a dozen ways, but if you cannot see it, you are blind to it. I pray that God will open your eyes.

 

[Dimi95]

Christians for a start interpret Psalm 110 as Messianic because Jesus did.

Yes , but the actual meaning is written in Psalm 110.

Also you can see what Jesus is saying in Matthew 22

'While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 'What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?'

'The son of David,' they replied.

He said to them, 'How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,......


In Matthew 22:45-46 we see how Jesus answers the topic.

"If then David calls him 'Lord,: how can he be his son?' No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions."

So the question is what did Jesus wanted to emphasize here since he claims 'I Am' from Exodus In the Gospel of John and Mark.

'I am' is YHWH from Psalm , so most probably he is refering it again in this narrative.

It is very interesting to see how others react to this , since many have agreed on the fact that Jesus is not 'shy' about YHWH at all.

It is very simple ,if one wants to talk about the NT then he should learn Modern Greek , and then learning Koine Greek is more easier.
Then , maybe we can talk about History.

I have no interest anymore to reply on this part of the forum , since projections are very obvious and circular reasoning can be noted.

Suggest you do the same.

The Jews of Jesus day also interpreted it as Messianic from the gospel.
Matt 22:41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, 42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him, “The son of David.” 43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,
44 “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I put your enemies under your feet” ’?
Christians also notice that the Psalm shows the person it is about doing Messianic things like judging the nations.

Yes , but when Jesus literally spoke , he spoke Aramaic and he quoted exactly Psalm 110.
The 'L' instead of 'l' is interpretated much later.

Look 45-46 it will be more clearer

For some reason the Jews these days don't interpret the Psalm as Messianic and that is the same with other passages which Jews used to interpret as Messianic but now do not.
It does help them scrub Jesus off their horizon as a possible Messiah of course but I would not like to suggest that was the reason for the change in interpretation.

It is considered Messianic since many are still waiting for 'The Anointed One'.

Jews do not regard any of these as having been fulfilled by Jesus.
In some cases they do not regard them as messianic prophecies at all,yes that is true however.

 

[Kathryn]

No one has ever explained to me why this is even a big deal, but apparently it really is to some people.

 

[Brian2]

Yes , but the actual meaning is written in Psalm 110.

Also you can see what Jesus is saying in Matthew 22

'While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 'What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?'

'The son of David,' they replied.

He said to them, 'How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,......


In Matthew 22:45-46 we see how Jesus answers the topic.

"If then David calls him 'Lord,: how can he be his son?' No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions."

So the question is what did Jesus wanted to emphasize here since he claims 'I Am' from Exodus In the Gospel of John and Mark.

'I am' is YHWH from Psalm , so most probably he is refering it again in this narrative.

It is very interesting to see how others react to this , since many have agreed on the fact that Jesus is not 'shy' about YHWH at all.

It is very simple ,if one wants to talk about the NT then he should learn Modern Greek , and then learning Koine Greek is more easier.
Then , maybe we can talk about History.

I have no interest anymore to reply on this part of the forum , since projections are very obvious and circular reasoning can be noted.

Suggest you do the same.

Jesus was just asking a question about Psalm 110 and wasn't inserting Himself as YHWH into the Psalm. However for Jews who did see the Psalm as Messianic, He was pointing out that the Messiah was called the Lord of David. (and by Lord I do not mean YHWH).

I