Could be lots. If we dream our own realities, we could imagine any numberof different heavens.
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What will heaven be like?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Erebus
Well-Known Member
I'm agnostic towards the afterlife. We can have out beliefs (or non-beliefs) and perhaps even experience things that inform our stance. However, we can't know what's waiting for us. With that in mind, my response is going to be focused on hypotheticals rather than religious beliefs.
If we broadly define heaven as a positive afterlife, there are a few possible ways it could go. A lot of people argue that heaven would become boring over time and may end up being a hell in its own right. However, that assumes that the beings in heaven would be capable of boredom in the first place. Perhaps the easiest way for heaven to stay heavenly would be for the people there to simply be rendered incapable of suffering at all.
Alternatively, they may be capable of the minor forms of suffering that allow us to better enjoy the good things in life. If heaven has some properties that mirror the physical world, perhaps climbing a mountain still requires effort and makes us ache. That form of suffering would ultimately make reaching the top of the mountain more satisfying. The kinds of suffering we wouldn't experience could be things like grief, illness, anxiety and so on.
Personally though, I think the most appealing concept of heaven is one that's specifically tailored to each individual. Some people might want a purely spiritual existence. Some might want a material (and perhaps carnal) existence. Others may not want to exist at all or perhaps to only exist for a finite period. Something for everyone.
If we broadly define heaven as a positive afterlife, there are a few possible ways it could go. A lot of people argue that heaven would become boring over time and may end up being a hell in its own right. However, that assumes that the beings in heaven would be capable of boredom in the first place. Perhaps the easiest way for heaven to stay heavenly would be for the people there to simply be rendered incapable of suffering at all.
Alternatively, they may be capable of the minor forms of suffering that allow us to better enjoy the good things in life. If heaven has some properties that mirror the physical world, perhaps climbing a mountain still requires effort and makes us ache. That form of suffering would ultimately make reaching the top of the mountain more satisfying. The kinds of suffering we wouldn't experience could be things like grief, illness, anxiety and so on.
Personally though, I think the most appealing concept of heaven is one that's specifically tailored to each individual. Some people might want a purely spiritual existence. Some might want a material (and perhaps carnal) existence. Others may not want to exist at all or perhaps to only exist for a finite period. Something for everyone.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not believe we can create our own realities. I believe the afterlife will be what God created, whatever that is.
Alien826
No religious beliefs
Even though I no longer believe any of it, I'll try a definition from my personal experience.
It would be like a Zoom call. With a good strong broadband connection, everything is clear. At the other end of the scale, the connection keeps dropping, the picture is fuzzy and often the sound is so bad you can't understand what is said. Removing the analogy, what actually causes the bad reception I don't know. Hopefully it's not to do with being a "good" or "bad" person.
This is essentially what "messengers claim, I think. A better connection to God. Personally I don't see any reason (in principle) why we can't all have that connection.
Exaltist Ethan
Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
We create our own realities here on Earth. Why would the afterlife be any different?
Exaltist Ethan
Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
I'm unsure what the afterlife will exactly be like, but I know, that if there is a Heaven, and I can't get in, I don't want to go to Heaven.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I don't believe that anyone in heaven will be bored because there will be endless things to do. I also don't believe there will be any suffering as that is not the nature of heaven. Heaven is where there will be no more suffering since we already suffered enough in this life!
My belief about heaven is derived from my religious scriptures. For example:
“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329
But my belief is also from what has been revealed by psychic mediums who have communicated with human spirits (souls) in the spiritual world.
The Afterlife Revealed
Private Dowding
I do not believe that the spiritual world aka heaven is anything like this world, so we won't need suffering in order to appreciate the 'good things' whatever they are. I also do not believe there is anything 'physical' in heaven, which is a purely spiritual world comprised of spiritual elements, just as our heavenly bodies will be comprised of. Don't ask me what a spiritual element is because I don't know, and I don't think that is something we can know until we cross over and experience it.
In my religion it says that this world is a counterpart of the spiritual world but I don't understand exactly what that means. I think it means that the 'real world' is the spiritual world and this world is just a reflection of that world, like an image in a mirror.
“The spiritual world is like unto the phenomenal world. They are the exact counterpart of each other. Whatever objects appear in this world of existence are the outer pictures of the world of heaven.” The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 10
I do not believe heaven will be a choice. I believe it will be whatever God created for us. There will no longer be a choice to engage in carnal desires, or anything physical, and will be hell for those souls who still desire that existence. As such those souls won't be in heaven, they will be in hell. Heaven is for those souls who desire a spiritual existence, including being close to God and doing service work for God like helping other souls.
I am anxious about the fact that heaven is largely unknown to us, but nevertheless I am looking forward to putting off this mortal body and leaving a physical existence, which has caused me mostly suffering. One advantage of suffering in this physical life is so that we don't get attached to it, which is good, since eventually we will be leaving it. This life is only a very small part of our total existence, and serves as preparation for the spiritual world.
I do not believe that it will be a a choice whether or not we want to continue to exist after we die physically because the soul is immortal so it cannot die. As such I suggest people do the best they can to prepare for living forever. I don't really like the idea of living forever, but I also don't like the idea of nonexistence. I have to just keep reminding myself that the spiritual world won't be like this world. I cannot imagine anything worse than living forever in this world.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I don't think they claim to have a connection to God. They claim to hear the voice of God through the Holy Spirit.
“God is My witness, O people! I was asleep on My couch, when lo, the Breeze of God wafting over Me roused Me from My slumber. His quickening Spirit revived Me, and My tongue was unloosed to voice His Call. Accuse Me not of having transgressed against God. Behold Me, not with your eyes but with Mine. Thus admonisheth you He Who is the Gracious, the All-Knowing.” Gleanings, pp. 90-91
We cannot hear that voice because God did not create us with that capacity.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
We do not create our own realities on earth. We have free will to create 'some' off our reality but most of what happens to us is by fate and predestination.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I don't understand. If you can't get into Heaven how can you go to Heaven, even if you want to go to Heaven?
Alien826
No religious beliefs
Not even dial-up?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I won't mention any names, but some people 'believe' they have a direct connection to God and they don't even need dial-up.Not even dial-up?
I don't believe that, and I cannot imagine anything more arrogant than to 'believe' that they have a 'line' to the Almighty God, the Creator of the entire universe.
Of course, you could say the same thing about the Messengers, because if they did not really get messages from God they would be arrogant to make such a claim.
Alien826
No religious beliefs
Hooray! When I read the thread title, I thought it would be people setting out their concepts of heaven, and others saying "That's interesting". I suppose predictably, it's been atheists saying there is no heaven, religious people telling other religious people that they are wrong about heaven, and Bah'ais bickering among themselves as always.
Here's how I would have liked it to go.
1. If you believe there is a heaven, tell us what you think it is like. No arguing from others, it's what you think.
2. If you don't believe in heaven but think it would be nice, tell us what you would like your heaven to be.
3. Others butt out.
Here's my version of #2.
It would be like a perfect VR game. The virtual reality would be indistinguishable from real life. There would be other people there but they would be simulations, lifelike and believable but not self aware, so unable of being hurt in any way. I could do all the things that I had wanted to do in life but was too timid to do (like parachuting) or not rich enough (like power boat racing) or simply weren't available (like having sex with lots of beautiful women without the "price" we pay for that on Earth).
I could live out dangerous adventures, knowing that I couldn't be really hurt, even if I suffered injury or even temporary death. I could experience how it feels to be a dog. Or a tiger. Or a jellyfish. Or a soaring Andean condor.
I would have time to explore the whole Earth with no limitation on time or physical endurance. It would be simulated of course, but accurate.
There's lots more, but hopefully the picture is clear. Three more things. If it's not already obvious, the whole thing would be under my control, though I could have the simulation "software" invent new things for me to enjoy. If I wanted to change the whole thing and try something totally different, I could. And finally I would have the ability to really die.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
*OPTIMISTIC*
I will tell you a not so funny story. When I went to take tax information to my CPA he asked me what I was ever going to DO with all my money and I told him nothing, not so long as I am single and not married, because I don't enjoy doing things alone. Then we got in a long talk about marriage and I came to discover he was also widowed and has been alone for 15 years and doesn't want to get married again. I like him and maybe I can change his mind. After all, he knows how many financial assets I have, and he could come to discover my other assets.
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Alien826
No religious beliefs
I'm not sure how those two things differ. They hear the voice of God through the Holy Spirit. If I called you, I would hear your voice through a telephone. Different medium, that's all.
It doesn't have to be arrogant. At one time I thought I was communicating with "something" (call it god if you like) and it replied, though not vocally. Wasn't so, but that's a long story. I didn't feel I was arrogant, as I assumed that the communication was available to everyone, and that there was nothing special about me. It certainly is arrogant if someone considers themsleves to superior because of it.
Of course, you could say the same thing about the Messengers, because if they did not really get messages from God they would be arrogant to make such a claim.
It does sound arrogant, quite frankly. I suppose it would depend on how they felt about it. If they were honored and surprised and humbled by being so chosen (doesn't matter if it's true, just that they think it is) I wouldn't call it arrogant. If it was "Look at me, the great messenger!" well, yes.
It's going off topic even more, but I see (or saw) God very differently. If God is so far above us, then maybe he doesn't have these prideful feelings about himself. "I'm too important to talk to pathetic ordinary people. I will only talk to really special people!" That's a very human way of thinking, but not surprising, as I believe that people often modeled their gods on human kings and emperors, who insisted on exaggerated forms of respect and got angry if they didn't get them. I don't think a truly superior being would see itself as "too good" to talk to ordinary people.
Alien826
No religious beliefs
*OPTIMISTIC*
I will tell you a not so funny story. When I went to take tax information to my CPA he asked me what I was ever going to DO with all my money and I told him nothing, not so long as I am single and not married, because I don't enjoy doing things alone. Then we got in a long talk about marriage and I came to discover he was also widowed and has been alone for 15 years and doesn't want to get married again. I like him and maybe I can change his mind. After all, he knows how many financial assets I have, and he could come to discover my other assets.
Make sure you get a prenup.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That's a given.Make sure you get a prenup.
I'll also make sure he knows something about maintaining houses and yards.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The difference is that if you called me there would be a two-way conversation between you and me. I don't know that the Messengers actually had a two-way conversation with God, I believe they only heard God's voice through the Holy Spirit.
I understand your point, and this person I was referring to believes that we can all have this kind of direct communication with God, but here is the problem, and why I said I thought it was arrogant: Other people are not getting that communication. So this person believes that the reason they are not getting that communication is because they are not doing something right, since they have the capability, just like him. That of course implies that he is doing something right and these other people, especially atheists, are doing something wrong, and I don't buy that for one moment. I don't believe that ordinary humans have the capacity to understand direct communication from God and that is why God sends Messengers to act as intermediaries.
Baha'u'llah's attitude was anything but "Look at me, the great messenger!" Here is some of what He wrote:
“Who can ever believe that this Servant of God hath at any time cherished in His heart a desire for any earthly honor or benefit? The Cause associated with His Name is far above the transitory things of this world. Behold Him, an exile, a victim of tyranny, in this Most Great Prison. His enemies have assailed Him on every side, and will continue to do so till the end of His life. Whatever, therefore, He saith unto you is wholly for the sake of God.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 85
“Think ye, O people, that I hold within My grasp the control of God’s ultimate Will and Purpose? Far be it from Me to advance such claim. To this I testify before God, the Almighty, the Exalted, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. Had the ultimate destiny of God’s Faith been in Mine hands, I would have never consented, even though for one moment, to manifest Myself unto you, nor would I have allowed one word to fall from My lips. Of this God Himself is, verily, a witness.”
Gleanings, p. 91
“Incline your ears to the counsels which this Servant giveth you for the sake of God. He, verily, asketh no recompense from you and is resigned to what God hath ordained for Him, and is entirely submissive to God’s Will.”
Gleanings, p. 127
What you are describing IS a human way of thinking, so you are projecting how you feel onto God.
God is not capable of pride since God is not a human with an ego. Only humans can have pride since they have an ego.
Moreover, God does not think He is great, He knows He is great, by virtue of being God. That is not egotistical since God is not a human.
Simply put, God does not think in terms of being "too good" to talk to ordinary humans. God does not talk to them because they could never understand Him, since our minds are incapable of understanding God.
Exaltist Ethan
Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
But that's my point. God gave us this beautiful rock to flourish in, but humans have done a great job making it exactly the way we want it to be. Maybe, if the afterlife exists, God will once again give us the foundation, but then it will be up to us what we do with it. That's how I perceive it anyway. Well, actually, I could get in more detail than that, and explain how quantum archeology will resurrect all human conscious that ever existed on the planet, but whether you are right Trailblazer or I am right, we will have take what God gave to us and make it better. I firmly believe this.
The point of the song is that if there's people like me who can't go to Heaven, then Heaven isn't filled with the people I love and associated with. "I never met no criminal, I'm no enemy" the song is about redemption because so many people, Christians, Baha'is and otherwise would lead you to believe that you have to be part of the right tribe or do the rites and rituals of a religion to gain favors with God. My God doesn't play favorites with people. If I can't get into Heaven, Heaven probably isn't a place I would even want to go, that's the entire point of the argument with the song. I want to live my life in my way accordingly, I already do enough good for others and myself and I want religion to add from that, not take away the things I already know and love.
That's the problem with non-Universalists. Hell is an infinite problem caused by an infinite God from people that cause finite mistakes. It doesn't make any sense to punish people when every single mistake they make, no matter how large, will be either forgotten or forgiven on Earth eventually. Finite people shouldn't suffer an infinite punishment from making temporary problems for themselves or other people.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Oh, that is what you meant. I didn't know that is what you meant, but now that I know I agree. Yes, God created this physical world for us to live in and do what we want to with it. It says that in the Bible. It is then possible that if the afterlife exists God will once again give us the foundation, but then it will be up to us what we do with it. That may well be the case, but just as this world is physical and we live and work within those parameters, I believe the next world will be spiirtual, so we will have to work and live within those parameters.
I cannot speak for Christians but Baha'is don't believe you have to be a Baha'i to get into Heaven. There are some other requirements but even those are fuzzy.
There is nothing that cannot be forgiven except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 12:31-32 “So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.”
I interpret those verses to mean that is unforgivable to hate the Holy Spirit because that is the same as hating God, which will not be forgiven in this life or in the afterlife.