Could be lots. If we dream our own realities, we could imagine any numberof different heavens.Is there more than one?
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Could be lots. If we dream our own realities, we could imagine any numberof different heavens.Is there more than one?
I do not believe we can create our own realities. I believe the afterlife will be what God created, whatever that is.Could be lots. If we dream our own realities, we could imagine any number of different heavens.
Then what does equate to being close to God, feeling that you are close to God?
How does someone know if they are close to God, or far from God?
We create our own realities here on Earth. Why would the afterlife be any different?I do not believe we can create our own realities. I believe the afterlife will be what God created, whatever that is.
I don't believe that anyone in heaven will be bored because there will be endless things to do. I also don't believe there will be any suffering as that is not the nature of heaven. Heaven is where there will be no more suffering since we already suffered enough in this life!If we broadly define heaven as a positive afterlife, there are a few possible ways it could go. A lot of people argue that heaven would become boring over time and may end up being a hell in its own right. However, that assumes that the beings in heaven would be capable of boredom in the first place. Perhaps the easiest way for heaven to stay heavenly would be for the people there to simply be rendered incapable of suffering at all.
I do not believe that the spiritual world aka heaven is anything like this world, so we won't need suffering in order to appreciate the 'good things' whatever they are. I also do not believe there is anything 'physical' in heaven, which is a purely spiritual world comprised of spiritual elements, just as our heavenly bodies will be comprised of. Don't ask me what a spiritual element is because I don't know, and I don't think that is something we can know until we cross over and experience it.Alternatively, they may be capable of the minor forms of suffering that allow us to better enjoy the good things in life. If heaven has some properties that mirror the physical world, perhaps climbing a mountain still requires effort and makes us ache. That form of suffering would ultimately make reaching the top of the mountain more satisfying. The kinds of suffering we wouldn't experience could be things like grief, illness, anxiety and so on.
I do not believe heaven will be a choice. I believe it will be whatever God created for us. There will no longer be a choice to engage in carnal desires, or anything physical, and will be hell for those souls who still desire that existence. As such those souls won't be in heaven, they will be in hell. Heaven is for those souls who desire a spiritual existence, including being close to God and doing service work for God like helping other souls.Personally though, I think the most appealing concept of heaven is one that's specifically tailored to each individual. Some people might want a purely spiritual existence. Some might want a material (and perhaps carnal) existence. Others may not want to exist at all or perhaps to only exist for a finite period. Something for everyone.
I don't think they claim to have a connection to God. They claim to hear the voice of God through the Holy Spirit.Even though I no longer believe any of it, I'll try a definition from my personal experience.
It would be like a Zoom call. With a good strong broadband connection, everything is clear. At the other end of the scale, the connection keeps dropping, the picture is fuzzy and often the sound is so bad you can't understand what is said. Removing the analogy, what actually causes the bad reception I don't know. Hopefully it's not to do with being a "good" or "bad" person.
This is essentially what "messengers claim, I think. A better connection to God. Personally I don't see any reason (in principle) why we can't all have that connection.
We do not create our own realities on earth. We have free will to create 'some' off our reality but most of what happens to us is by fate and predestination.We create our own realities here on Earth. Why would the afterlife be any different?
I don't understand. If you can't get into Heaven how can you go to Heaven, even if you want to go to Heaven?I'm unsure what the afterlife will exactly be like, but I know, that if there is a Heaven, and I can't get in, I don't want to go to Heaven.
Not even dial-up?We cannot hear that voice because God did not create us with that capacity.
I won't mention any names, but some people 'believe' they have a direct connection to God and they don't even need dial-up.Not even dial-up?
Hooray! When I read the thread title, I thought it would be people setting out their concepts of heaven, and others saying "That's interesting". I suppose predictably, it's been atheists saying there is no heaven, religious people telling other religious people that they are wrong about heaven, and Bah'ais bickering among themselves as always.I'm agnostic towards the afterlife. We can have out beliefs (or non-beliefs) and perhaps even experience things that inform our stance. However, we can't know what's waiting for us. With that in mind, my response is going to be focused on hypotheticals rather than religious beliefs.
*OPTIMISTIC*Hooray! When I read the thread title, I thought it would be people setting out their concepts of heaven, and others saying "That's interesting". I suppose predictably, it's been atheists saying there is no heaven, religious people telling other religious people that they are wrong about heaven, and Bah'ais bickering among themselves as always.
Here's how I would have liked it to go.
1. If you believe there is a heaven, tell us what you think it is like. No arguing from others, it's what you think.
2. If you don't believe in heaven but think it would be nice, tell us what you would like your heaven to be.
3. Others butt out.
Here's my version of #2.
It would be like a perfect VR game. The virtual reality would be indistinguishable from real life. There would be other people there but they would be simulations, lifelike and believable but not self aware, so unable of being hurt in any way. I could do all the things that I had wanted to do in life but was too timid to do (like parachuting) or not rich enough (like power boat racing) or simply weren't available (like having sex with lots of beautiful women without the "price" we pay for that on Earth).
I could live out dangerous adventures, knowing that I couldn't be really hurt, even if I suffered injury or even temporary death. I could experience how it feels to be a dog. Or a tiger. Or a jellyfish. Or a soaring Andean condor.
I would have time to explore the whole Earth with no limitation on time or physical endurance. It would be simulated of course, but accurate.
There's lots more, but hopefully the picture is clear. Three more things. If it's not already obvious, the whole thing would be under my control, though I could have the simulation "software" invent new things for me to enjoy. If I wanted to change the whole thing and try something totally different, I could. And finally I would have the ability to really die.
I'm not sure how those two things differ. They hear the voice of God through the Holy Spirit. If I called you, I would hear your voice through a telephone. Different medium, that's all.I don't think they claim to have a connection to God. They claim to hear the voice of God through the Holy Spirit.
It doesn't have to be arrogant. At one time I thought I was communicating with "something" (call it god if you like) and it replied, though not vocally. Wasn't so, but that's a long story. I didn't feel I was arrogant, as I assumed that the communication was available to everyone, and that there was nothing special about me. It certainly is arrogant if someone considers themsleves to superior because of it.I won't mention any names, but some people 'believe' they have a direct connection to God and they don't even need dial-up.
I don't believe that, and I cannot imagine anything more arrogant than to 'believe' that they have a 'line' to the Almighty God, the Creator of the entire universe.
Of course, you could say the same thing about the Messengers, because if they did not really get messages from God they would be arrogant to make such a claim.
*OPTIMISTIC*
I will tell you a not so funny story. When I went to take tax information to my CPA he asked me what I was ever going to DO with all my money and I told him nothing, not so long as I am single and not married, because I don't enjoy doing things alone. Then we got in a long talk about marriage and I came to discover he was also widowed and has been alone for 15 years and doesn't want to get married again. I like him and maybe I can change his mind. After all, he knows how many financial assets I have, and he could come to discover my other assets.
That's a given.Make sure you get a prenup.
The difference is that if you called me there would be a two-way conversation between you and me. I don't know that the Messengers actually had a two-way conversation with God, I believe they only heard God's voice through the Holy Spirit.I'm not sure how those two things differ. They hear the voice of God through the Holy Spirit. If I called you, I would hear your voice through a telephone. Different medium, that's all.
I understand your point, and this person I was referring to believes that we can all have this kind of direct communication with God, but here is the problem, and why I said I thought it was arrogant: Other people are not getting that communication. So this person believes that the reason they are not getting that communication is because they are not doing something right, since they have the capability, just like him. That of course implies that he is doing something right and these other people, especially atheists, are doing something wrong, and I don't buy that for one moment. I don't believe that ordinary humans have the capacity to understand direct communication from God and that is why God sends Messengers to act as intermediaries.It doesn't have to be arrogant. At one time I thought I was communicating with "something" (call it god if you like) and it replied, though not vocally. Wasn't so, but that's a long story. I didn't feel I was arrogant, as I assumed that the communication was available to everyone, and that there was nothing special about me. It certainly is arrogant if someone considers themsleves to superior because of it.
Baha'u'llah's attitude was anything but "Look at me, the great messenger!" Here is some of what He wrote:It does sound arrogant, quite frankly. I suppose it would depend on how they felt about it. If they were honored and surprised and humbled by being so chosen (doesn't matter if it's true, just that they think it is) I wouldn't call it arrogant. If it was "Look at me, the great messenger!" well, yes.
What you are describing IS a human way of thinking, so you are projecting how you feel onto God.It's going off topic even more, but I see (or saw) God very differently. If God is so far above us, then maybe he doesn't have these prideful feelings about himself. "I'm too important to talk to pathetic ordinary people. I will only talk to really special people!" That's a very human way of thinking, but not surprising, as I believe that people often modeled their gods on human kings and emperors, who insisted on exaggerated forms of respect and got angry if they didn't get them. I don't think a truly superior being would see itself as "too good" to talk to ordinary people.
But that's my point. God gave us this beautiful rock to flourish in, but humans have done a great job making it exactly the way we want it to be. Maybe, if the afterlife exists, God will once again give us the foundation, but then it will be up to us what we do with it. That's how I perceive it anyway. Well, actually, I could get in more detail than that, and explain how quantum archeology will resurrect all human conscious that ever existed on the planet, but whether you are right Trailblazer or I am right, we will have take what God gave to us and make it better. I firmly believe this.We do not create our own realities on earth. We have free will to create 'some' off our reality but most of what happens to us is by fate and predestination.
The point of the song is that if there's people like me who can't go to Heaven, then Heaven isn't filled with the people I love and associated with. "I never met no criminal, I'm no enemy" the song is about redemption because so many people, Christians, Baha'is and otherwise would lead you to believe that you have to be part of the right tribe or do the rites and rituals of a religion to gain favors with God. My God doesn't play favorites with people. If I can't get into Heaven, Heaven probably isn't a place I would even want to go, that's the entire point of the argument with the song. I want to live my life in my way accordingly, I already do enough good for others and myself and I want religion to add from that, not take away the things I already know and love.I don't understand. If you can't get into Heaven how can you go to Heaven, even if you want to go to Heaven?
Oh, that is what you meant. I didn't know that is what you meant, but now that I know I agree. Yes, God created this physical world for us to live in and do what we want to with it. It says that in the Bible. It is then possible that if the afterlife exists God will once again give us the foundation, but then it will be up to us what we do with it. That may well be the case, but just as this world is physical and we live and work within those parameters, I believe the next world will be spiirtual, so we will have to work and live within those parameters.But that's my point. God gave us this beautiful rock to flourish in, but humans have done a great job making it exactly the way we want it to be. Maybe, if the afterlife exists, God will once again give us the foundation, but then it will be up to us what we do with it. That's how I perceive it anyway.
I cannot speak for Christians but Baha'is don't believe you have to be a Baha'i to get into Heaven. There are some other requirements but even those are fuzzy.The point of the song is that if there's people like me who can't go to Heaven, then Heaven isn't filled with the people I love and associated with. "I never met no criminal, I'm no enemy" the song is about redemption because so many people, Christians, Baha'is and otherwise would lead you to believe that you have to be part of the right tribe or do the rites and rituals of a religion to gain favors with God. My God doesn't play favorites with people. If I can't get into Heaven, Heaven probably isn't a place I would even want to go, that's the entire point of the argument with the song. I want to live my life in my way accordingly, I already do enough good for others and myself and I want religion to add from that, not take away the things I already know and love.
There is nothing that cannot be forgiven except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.That's the problem with non-Universalists. Hell is an infinite problem caused by an infinite God from people that cause finite mistakes. It doesn't make any sense to punish people when every single mistake they make, no matter how large, will be either forgotten or forgiven on Earth eventually. Finite people shouldn't suffer an infinite punishment from making temporary problems for themselves or other people.