What's the Bible say about Hermaphrodites?

[Prestor John]

Suppose there were a person whose gender would be indeterminate at birth. Let's say this person matures into a person with an overdeveloped clitoris / underdeveloped penis. What type of sexual behavior from such a person would be permissible, according to the Bible?

That is not possible.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

That is not possible.

As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, such a thing is very much possible. Merely saying "no it isn't! No it isn't!" over and over doesn't change reality.

 

[Jumi]

Really?

Yes. You can read about people whose chromosomes don't match the gender they are born in medical literature.

So as not to offend some people who believe in black and white genders, they are typically mutilated to one gender before they have a choice. Many are now working towards rights of intersexed people to make their own choice when they grow up instead. If they wish to keep both or go for one of them.

Such as this site: STOP Intersex Genital Mutilations in Children's Clinics!

 

[Jumi]

That is not possible.

How do you know? Even saint Augustine knew about people who are born with both. There are children mutilated every day who are born with both so that they would pass for male or female.

 

[Ellen Brown]

That is not possible.

There is Clitoromegaly, though I do not know the genetic code. I am XXY, very slim, moderate hips, well developed bust. Normal appearing "Junk", but nearly steril owing to low Testosterone level. Around 2% of the babies born are Intersex. Various Intersex conditions manifest themselves by having the Urethra at the base of the Penis, or at the bottom. Oh, it goes on and on. Ain't reading all about "And God made them male and female", and then meeting people with various intersex conditions...

 

[Ellen Brown]

Yes. You can read about people whose chromosomes don't match the gender they are born in medical literature.

So as not to offend some people who believe in black and white genders, they are typically mutilated to one gender before they have a choice. Many are now working towards rights of intersexed people to make their own choice when they grow up instead. If they wish to keep both or go for one of them.

Such as this site: STOP Intersex Genital Mutilations in Children's Clinics!

I was born with irregular "Junk" and as soon as I was born the doctor took me in another room and "did something". In 1947, Doctors were Gods and no one questioned them and there were no records of what he did. Talking to other people with those sorts of experiences, they corroborate what I said. I am XXY.

I support letting the child determine for themselves when they get older, usually around 7-10 years old.

 

[Jumi]

I was born with irregular "Junk" and as soon as I was born the doctor took me in another room and "did something". In 1947, Doctors were Gods and no one questioned them and there were no records of what he did. Talking to other people with those sorts of experiences, they corroborate what I said. I am XXY.

The doctors have done much wrong to you and many others like. It's a sad state of affairs when people are even completely ignorant that you exist and prefer to keep up appearances and the suffering.

There is a list of countries that recognize intersex and don't just hide the facts by mutilation and it's quite small:

Legal recognition of intersex people - Wikipedia

Sadly the ones that do are quite few and there are religious reasons that people want to hide intersex births.

I support letting the child determine for themselves when they get older, usually around 7-10 years old.

I think we could leave the whole thing undecided if they choose so. If only society would allow the truth.

 

[WalterTrull]

I wish there was a reset timer on this forum. I need it right now.

Yeah, me too. Reading more posts. Very, very sorry to have caused you more pain. In the future I'll try to be more aware and sensitive when confronted by humor virus relapse. Sorry.

 

[Salvador]

That is not possible.

True hermaphroditism is rare, but does happen.

True hermaphroditism - Wikipedia

 

[Salvador]

Bizarre question. Most people with this problem have it corrected at birth. This is so rare, the Bible never mentions it.

These are people with a reason for gender dysphoria

True hermaphroditism isn't "correctable" at birth.

"The U.S. legal case of M.C. v. Aaronson, advanced by intersex civil society organization interACT with the Southern Poverty Law Center was brought before the courts in 2013."

1. IC's Landmark Lawsuit Makes History!". AIC. May 16, 2013. Archived from the original on February 6, 2017.
2. ^ Jump up to:Southern Poverty Law Center (May 14, 2013). "Groundbreaking SLPC Lawsuit Accuses South Carolina Doctors and Hospitals of Unnecessary Surgery on Infant". Retrieved 2015-07-20.
3. ^ Reis, Elizabeth (May 17, 2013). "Do No Harm: Intersex Surgeries and the Limits of Certainty". Nursing Clio. Retrieved 2015-07-20.
4. Dreger, Alice (May 16, 2013). "When to Do Surgery on a Child With 'Both' Genitalia". The Atlantic. Retrieved 2015-07-20.

"The child in the case was born in December 2004 with ovotestes, initially determined as male, but subsequently assigned female and placed in the care of South Carolina Department of Social Services in February 2005."

"Physicians responsible for M.C. initially concluded that surgery was not urgent or necessary and M.C. had potential to identify as male or female, but, in April 2006, M.C. was subjected to feminizing medical interventions. "

White, Ryan L. (2013). "Preferred Private Parts: Importing Intersex Autonomy for M.C. v. Aaronson". Fordham International Law Journal. 37: 777.

"He was adopted in December 2006. Aged 8 at the time the case was taken, he now identifies as male. The Southern Poverty Law Center state: "In M.C.’s condition, there is no way to tell whether the child will ultimately identify as a boy or a girl. Instead, the doctors decided to assign M.C. female and change his body to fit their stereotype of how a girl should look."

Southern Poverty Law Center (May 14, 2013). "Groundbreaking SLPC Lawsuit Accuses South Carolina Doctors and Hospitals of Unnecessary Surgery on Infant". Retrieved 2015-07-20.

Adoptive parents sue over son's sex-assignment surgery". Washington Times.

"The defendant in the case, Dr Ian Aaronson, had written in 2001 that "feminizing genitoplasty on an infant who might eventually identify herself as a boy would be catastrophic".

1. White, Ryan L. (2013). "Preferred Private Parts: Importing Intersex Autonomy for M.C. v. Aaronson". Fordham International Law Journal. 37: 777.
2. Aaronson, Ian A (July 2001). "The investigation and management of the infant with ambiguous genitalia: A surgeon's perspective". Current Problems in Pediatrics. 31 (6): 168–194. doi:10.1067/mps.2001.116127. ISSN 0045-9380.

 

[Jumi]

Suppose there were a person whose gender would be indeterminate at birth.

There has been a lot of theological speculation on it since Saint Augustine.

True hermaphroditism isn't "correctable" at birth.

Doesn't stop doctors for forcing an "aesthetic correction" on babies to make it seem like there's only boys and girls. There was a case in Germany where one won 100,000$ in a court case against the doctor who made a "forced sex change" 30 years ago on a hermaphrodite.

 

[shmogie]

True hermaphroditism isn't "correctable" at birth.

"The U.S. legal case of M.C. v. Aaronson, advanced by intersex civil society organization interACT with the Southern Poverty Law Center was brought before the courts in 2013."

1. IC's Landmark Lawsuit Makes History!". AIC. May 16, 2013. Archived from the original on February 6, 2017.
2. ^ Jump up to:Southern Poverty Law Center (May 14, 2013). "Groundbreaking SLPC Lawsuit Accuses South Carolina Doctors and Hospitals of Unnecessary Surgery on Infant". Retrieved 2015-07-20.
3. ^ Reis, Elizabeth (May 17, 2013). "Do No Harm: Intersex Surgeries and the Limits of Certainty". Nursing Clio. Retrieved 2015-07-20.
4. Dreger, Alice (May 16, 2013). "When to Do Surgery on a Child With 'Both' Genitalia". The Atlantic. Retrieved 2015-07-20.

"The child in the case was born in December 2004 with ovotestes, initially determined as male, but subsequently assigned female and placed in the care of South Carolina Department of Social Services in February 2005."

"Physicians responsible for M.C. initially concluded that surgery was not urgent or necessary and M.C. had potential to identify as male or female, but, in April 2006, M.C. was subjected to feminizing medical interventions. "

White, Ryan L. (2013). "Preferred Private Parts: Importing Intersex Autonomy for M.C. v. Aaronson". Fordham International Law Journal. 37: 777.

"He was adopted in December 2006. Aged 8 at the time the case was taken, he now identifies as male. The Southern Poverty Law Center state: "In M.C.’s condition, there is no way to tell whether the child will ultimately identify as a boy or a girl. Instead, the doctors decided to assign M.C. female and change his body to fit their stereotype of how a girl should look."

Southern Poverty Law Center (May 14, 2013). "Groundbreaking SLPC Lawsuit Accuses South Carolina Doctors and Hospitals of Unnecessary Surgery on Infant". Retrieved 2015-07-20.

Adoptive parents sue over son's sex-assignment surgery". Washington Times.

"The defendant in the case, Dr Ian Aaronson, had written in 2001 that "feminizing genitoplasty on an infant who might eventually identify herself as a boy would be catastrophic".

1. White, Ryan L. (2013). "Preferred Private Parts: Importing Intersex Autonomy for M.C. v. Aaronson". Fordham International Law Journal. 37: 777.
2. Aaronson, Ian A (July 2001). "The investigation and management of the infant with ambiguous genitalia: A surgeon's perspective". Current Problems in Pediatrics. 31 (6): 168–194. doi:10.1067/mps.2001.116127. ISSN 0045-9380.

Like I said, in most cases the problem is corrected at surgery. Today, when I am sure some ¨identify¨ as artichokes, c the mental issue of adult ¨gender¨ for any baby cannot be known. Women wanting to be men, vice versa, some both at the same time, 5 year olds being stampeded into trying to be what they physically aren´t by idiot parents.

So, the parents in one case saw the dollar signs and sued. Anyone can sue anybody for anything. Itś the American way. You roll the dice and you might get a big payoff

 

[Jumi]

Like I said, in most cases the problem is corrected at surgery.

"Corrected" or rather you damage the baby so some people can live in a fantasy ideal and escape from reality. Not a big fan of governments deciding what kids should be like to be pleasing to masses.

 

[Prestor John]

As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, such a thing is very much possible. Merely saying "no it isn't! No it isn't!" over and over doesn't change reality.

I remember people repeatedly sharing their opinions with me.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I remember people repeatedly sharing their opinions with me.

You've demonstrated that you are stubborn. Be thankful that you don't have the problem and can just judge people all you want to. Yes, hold onto that Iron Rod, even if you are wrong.

 

[shmogie]

There has been a lot of theological speculation on it since Saint Augustine.


Doesn't stop doctors for forcing an "aesthetic correction" on babies to make it seem like there's only boys and girls. There was a case in Germany where one won 100,000$ in a court case against the doctor who made a "forced sex change" 30 years ago on a hermaphrodite.

Hmmmmmmm, how can a physician force a surgery on a baby ? Isn´t there such a thing as parental consent ? Follow the money in the lawsuit, 30 years later.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Hmmmmmmm, how can a physician force a surgery on a baby ? Isn´t there such a thing as parental consent ? Follow the money in the lawsuit, 30 years later.

I am so angered that ... I will try to speak respectfully. In 1947, when I was born, there was no oversight at all, and no records kept of Doctors "Setting things straight". I'm not in any sort of communication with the LGBT organizations but I can say with certainty that children who acted "not in accordance" with the gender expectations of the day often/ sometimes/ occasionally just disappeared. I personally faced that. How long that continued, I do not know? Certainly through the 50s, and perhaps the 60s? Maybe it still sometimes happens today ??? AND, the suicide rate for T folk and perhaps Intersex (???) is over 40%.

Nowadays, there is a lot of oversight on urban medical folk, I do not know how country medical folk handle all that?

Sadly, when I look at suicide rates, nationwide, they are high across all societal groups.

 

[Jumi]

Hmmmmmmm, how can a physician force a surgery on a baby ? Isn´t there such a thing as parental consent ? Follow the money in the lawsuit, 30 years later.

So to you it would be fine to mutilate them and remove extra genitals if the parents said, yes?

It's common and the US is quite a bit more backward in this than most of the west. Though even in my country removal of extra genitals is done as a matter of course. In case of those who are intersex, being forced is the way countries have been hiding the truth.

 

[Kenny]

What about somebody who has a 46,XX/46,XY "true hermaphroditism" genetic condition caused by chimerism, what gender would somebody like this be considered?

"46,XX/46,XY is a chimeric genetic condition caused by having two distinct cell populations within the body. The chimerism arises in utero from the combination of an XX zygote and an XY zygote (which otherwise would have developed into twins) into a single embryo.[1] It is not to be confused with mosaicism and hybridism. 46,XX/46,XY is sometimes associated with Intersex conditions such as ambiguous genitalia and hermaphroditism."

Reference: Kim, Kyu-Rae; Kwon, Youngmee; Joung, Jae Young; Kim, Kun Suk; Ayala, Alberto G.; ťRo, Jae Y. (2002). "True Hermaphroditism and Mixed Gonadal Dysgenesis in Young Children: A Clinicopathologic Study of 10 Cases". Modern Pathology. 15 (10): 1013–9. doi:10.1097/01.MP.0000027623.23885.0D. PMID 12379746.

Interesting...

I read the site and it says:

• The Dutch sprinter Foekje Dillema was expelled from the 1950 national team after she refused a mandatory sex test in July 1950; later investigations revealed a Y-chromosome in her body cells, and the analysis showed that she probably was a 46,XX/46,XY mosaic female.[14]

Why do they call it a "mosaic female" and not a "mosaic male"?

 

[shmogie]

So to you it would be fine to mutilate them and remove extra genitals if the parents said, yes?

It's common and the US is quite a bit more backward in this than most of the west. Though even in my country removal of extra genitals is done as a matter of course. In case of those who are intersex, being forced is the way countries have been hiding the truth.

If a baby is born with three legs, would you deny the parents the ability to have the the third leg removed ? How about two feet on one leg ? Is your argument that the kid needs to be old enough to decide for himself if he doesn't want to be walking around with three legs ?

Gender identification is a mental process, not a physical one.

Anatomically there are only two sexes, and a person born with the sexual organs of both is a genetic disaster.

Whatever the parents decide to make the child normal, yes I used that word, has nothing to do with later gender identification.

Consigning a child to grow to adulthood in that condition, with all the mental damage it would entail is viciously cruel, and a high price for a kid to pay for the smugness of those with a political agenda and are obsessed with everything about sex, the stranger the better.