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What's wrong with incest?

Skwim

Veteran Member
I invite you to read up on "family-disruption theory", often associated with Bronislaw Malinowski (regarded as one of the most influential anthropologists and ethnographers of the 20th century).

Most sociologists and anthropologists explain incest avoidance by means of one or another type of functionalist argument, such as the so-called family disruption theory (whereas evolutionary biologists would explain it on the basis of natural selection favouring variation to avoid genetic bottleneck and recessive alleles).

Basically, sexual competition among family members would foment so much rivalry, jealousy and tension that the nuclear family could not function as an effective unit, which since our hunter-gatherer past has been essential for cooperative survival. The unity of each family was necessary to protect it against wild animals and to carry out large hunts.

Because the family must function effectively for society to survive and indeed to thrive, society has to curtail competition within the family. The familial incest taboo is thus imposed to keep the family intact.

Incest taboos therefore have high cultural fitness because of their advantages in preventing competition and disruptive relations between family members.

As a result of this and the concurrent recognition that inbreeding led to poorer health plus defects in offspring (again bad for survival), almost all independent clusters of humans spread out on the earth enforced an incest taboo.

And they were right to do so, given that incest is neither a biological nor social good.
Aside from the fact that your post here doesn't address any of the points you brought up, I don't respond to quotes without cited (preferably linked) sources. Passing off the words of others as your own, including paraphrasing them, is plagiarism.


Maybe some other time.
 
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Curious George

Veteran Member
But is it not also too intrusive to enforce incest-based legislation?
Nope. Generally determining kinship is easy. If it required DNA testing in most cases, then I would say yes.

So why then should incest be banned but marriage not (given that you agree that there is much potential for abuse/coercion to occur within marriage as within families)?
Because that wouldn't make sense. Marriage is a legal contract. Banning it would entail the choice to simply not recognize marriage legally. Marriage is recognized legally because we believe doing so produces a net benefit.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Sorry, but I don't respond to quotes without cited (linked) sources. Passing off the words of others, including paraphrasing them, as your own is plagiarism.


Maybe some other time.

Read:

Incest: Origins of the Taboo
By Jonathan H. Turner, Alexandra Maryanski
(Published 2016)

p. 41 onwards

Link:

Incest

It explains how most sociologists since have followed the essentials of Malinowski's theory (i.e. that incest is inherently disruptive to intra-familial relations and that this was one of the main reasons for the origin of the taboo).
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
The Heptameron, by Marguerite de Navarre : Tale XXX.

In the middle of the nave of the collégial church of Ecouis, in the cross aisle, was found a white marble slab on which was inscribed this epitaph:—

“Here lies the child, here lies the father,
Here lies the sister, here lies the brother,
Here lie the wife and the husband,
Yet there are but two bodies here.”
“The tradition is that a son of Madame d’Écouis had by his mother, without knowing her or being recognised by her, a daughter named Cecilia, whom he afterwards married in Lorraine, she then being in the service of the Duchess of Bar. Thus Cecilia was at one and the same time her husband’s daughter, sister and wife. They were interred together in the same grave at Écouis in 1512.”
Now that is what you call "keepin' it in the family". :thumbsup:
 
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Deidre

Well-Known Member
I find it interesting to explore the rationale behind subjects considered taboo by many, not least where the reasons given could also be levelled against other kinds of behaviours/practices which are not sanctioned at all, to the same degree or in the same way.
It really does make you wonder on some level, if some of these things are taboo due to a social construct, or is it innate? Is it biological? Or a combination of both? It would seem like a lot of taboos in general, stem from social constructs though.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I just stumbled across this article in Psychology Today that may be of interest.


"What’s the matter with a little brother/sister action?
What our reaction to incest can tell us about morality.
Fellow "Experiments in Philosophy" blogger Jesse Prinz posted about UVA psychologist Jon Haidt's work on political differences. I want to continue exploring the philosophical implications of Haidt's work by asking whether it's all right for Julie and her brother Mark to have sex.

Here's a scenario drawn from a study Haidt conducted:

"Julie and Mark are brother and sister. They are traveling together in France on summer vacation from college. One night they are staying alone in a cabin near the beach. They decide that it would be interesting and fun if they tried making love. At the very least, it would be a new experience for each of them. Julie was already taking birth control pills, but Mark uses a condom too, just to be safe. They both enjoy making love, but they decide never to do it again. They keep that night as a special secret, which makes them feel even closer to each other. What do you think about that? Was it ok for them to make love?"​

If you're like most people, your response is "absolutely not," but you'll find it more difficult than you think to come up with a justification. "Genetic defects from inbreeding." Yes, but they were using two forms of birth control. (And in the vanishingly small chance of pregnancy, Julie can get an abortion.) "It will mess them up emotionally." On the contrary, they enjoyed the act and it brought them closer together. "It's illegal." Not in France. "It's disgusting." For you, maybe, but not for them (obviously). Do you really want to say that private acts are morally wrong just because a lot of people find those acts disgusting? And so on.

The scenario of course is designed to ward off the most common moral objections to incest, and in doing so demonstrate that much of moral reasoning is a post-hoc affair-a way of justifying judgments that you've already reached though an emotional gut response to a situation. Although we like to think of ourselves as arriving at our moral judgments after painstaking rational deliberation, or at least some kind of deliberation anyhow, Haidt's model-the "social intuititionist model"-sees the process as just the reverse. We judge and then we reason. Reason is the press secretary of the emotions, as Haidt is fond of saying, the ex post facto spin doctor of beliefs we've arrived at through a largely intuitive process.

As Haidt recognizes, his theory can be placed within a grand tradition of moral psychology and philosophy-a return to an emphasis on the emotions which began in full force with the work of Scottish philosophers Adam Smith and David Hume. Although the more rationalist theories of Piaget and Kohlberg were dominant for much of the twentieth century, Haidt-style views have gained more and more adherants over the last 10 years. Which leads to the question: are their any philosophical/ethical implications of this model, should it be the right one? Plenty, in my view, and I'll conclude this post by mentioning just a few of them.

First, although Haidt may disagree (see my interview (link is external) with him for a discussion about this issue), I believe Haidt's model supports a subjectivist view about the nature of moral beliefs. My thinking is as follows: We arrive at our judgments through our emotionally charged intuitions, intuitions that do not track any kind of objective moral truth, but instead are artifacts of our biological and cultural histories. Haidt's model reveals that there is quite a bit of self-deception bound up in moral beliefs and practice. The strength of these intuitions leads us to believe that the truth of our moral judgments is "self-evident"-think: declaration of independence-in other words, that they correspond to an objective moral reality of some kind. That is why we try so hard to justify them after the fact. But we have little to no reason to believe that this moral reality exists. (I should add that contrary to the views of newspaper columnists across the country, claiming that a view might lead to moral relativism or subjectivism is not equivalent to saying that the view is false. This is not a reductio ad absurdum. If Haidt's model is vindicated scientifically, and it does indeed entail that moral relativism or subjectivism is true, then we have to accept it. Rejecting a theory just because you feel uncomfortable about its implications is a far more skeptical or nihilistic stance than anything I've discussed in this post.)

Second, and less abstractly, I think it would make sense to subject our own values to far more critical scrutiny than we're accustomed to doing. If Haidt is right, our values may not be on the secure footing that we believe them to be. We could very well find that upon reflection, many of our values do not reflect our considered beliefs about what makes for a good life. It's important to note that Haidt does not claim that it's impossible for reason to change our moral values or the values of others. He just believes that this kind of process happens far less frequently than we believe, and furthermore that when values are affected by reason, it is because reason triggers a new emotional response which in turn starts a new chain of justification.

Finally, I think we might become a little more tolerant of the moral views of others (within limits of course-sometimes too much tolerance is tantamount to suicide). Everyone is morally motivated, as Haidt says: liberals should stop thinking of conservatives as motivated only by greed and racism. And conservatives should stop thinking of liberals as-as Jesse Prinz puts it in his post-"either tree-hugging fools or calculating agents of moral degeneracy." More importantly, if Haidt is correct, we must recognize even the people we consider to be the epitome of pure evil-the Islamic fundamentalists who engineered 9/11 for example-are motivated by moral goals, however distorted we find them to be. As Haidt told me in our interview:

"One of the most psychologically stupid things anyone ever said is that the 9/11 terrorists did this because they hate our freedom. That's just idiotic. Nobody says: "They're free over there. I hate that. I want to kill them." They did this because they hate us, they're angry at us for many reasons, and terrorism and violence are "moral" actions, by which I don't mean morally right, I mean morally motivated."

It seems plausible that in order to shape our policies properly, we need to have an accurate understanding of the moral motivations of the people with whom we're at war.

Further reading:

Haidt, J . (2001). The emotional dog and its rational tail: A social intuitionist approach to moral judgment. Psychological Review. 108, 814-834

August 2005 interview with Jon Haidt (link is external) in The Believer."
source
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Not really. Secrecy isn't required if it doesn't provoke a public scandal. :shrug: If everyone in town is of the opinion that sex between siblings is okey dokey then there's no need for secrecy on this particular point.

.
Good point. Referring to a recent verdict of 2011, where a stepson and a stepmother were acquitted, quote "in order to have the public scandal configured, it is necessary that strangers learn of the incestuous behavior. "
So there is no public scandal when the subjects do anything to keep the relationship private...no matter how open minded the neighborhood/town is.


Having your family being sexually attracted to you feels suffocating.
Let's admit it...we all have fantasized about our own father....at least once.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
The thread title is pretty self-explanatory. But just to expand a little, how do you define incest - how closely-related does someone need to be - and why do you think it is wrong (assuming you do - if you don't, why not?)?

PS
Because humans know better and needn't act like animals.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Because humans know better and needn't act like animals.
I don't think anyone has yet mentioned any need. In any case, humans are animals, so why should we be expected not to act like them, although I don't know how much incest takes place among the other animals.

.
 
Nope. Generally determining kinship is easy. If it required DNA testing in most cases, then I would say yes.

Ah, right, I see your point. But then surely it's not too difficult to work out that/when someone is line-managing or in a similar position of power within an organisation relative to someone else?

Because that wouldn't make sense. Marriage is a legal contract. Banning it would entail the choice to simply not recognize marriage legally. Marriage is recognized legally because we believe doing so produces a net benefit.

Okay, fair enough. What about sexual relationships where there is no marriage contract (marriage has not 'taken place') but in all other respects look like marriage?
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Electra said:
Having your family being sexually attracted to you feels suffocating.

Let's admit it...we all have fantasized about our own father....at least once.
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