When it comes to Prayer 76% of Americans Don't Give a **** About the Constitution

[Koldo]

What if the tangent is too long and stretched... prayers in school is a benign thing, I will say again.

Only if you are a christian.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I don't really get this one, though it does ring a bell. Source?

Sure thing. Here's something from the BBC and here's a (rather dated) Q&A thing from the Church of England as well they did as well

CofE isn't a 'branch of government', it's an independent religious establishment.

It's the state church and it has privileged access to the law-making process through members in the legislature. It's part of the government.

How much? I thought a significant proportion was also raised by donation.

State financial assistance where? Are you referring to the church repairs again?

I was partially referring to the chancel repairs liability thing as that also counts as state financial assistance; but also to this story from 2014 as an example if you would consider it acceptable.

They're all liberals anyway and most often agree with left-wing initiatives, they try to fit in with you lot but the poor sods still get rejected.

That's not what I've heard.

 

[McBell]

What if the tangent is too long and stretched... prayers in school is a benign thing, I will say again. To then extrapolate that to gay marriage as an analogy is strenuous.

First Baseman brought up the tangent in his failed attempt to present samples of Constitution violations.
So perhaps you should go talk to him?

 

[JustWondering]

(As an FYI, for the last 54 years public school sponsored prayer has been against the law in America)

"More than three-quarters (76%) of Americans agree that public high schools should be allowed to sponsor prayer before football games. There are few differences by race, region, gender, or age.

More than 9-in-10 (93%) white evangelical Protestants, approximately 8-in-10 white mainline Protestants (82%), minority Christians (81%), and Catholics (79%), and even a majority (56%) of religiously unaffiliated Americans agree that public high schools should be able to sponsor prayer before football games.

Nearly 9-in-10 (89%) Republicans agree that public high schools should be allowed to sponsor prayer before football games, compared to more than three-quarters (77%) of independents and nearly 7-in-10 (68%) Democrats."
source

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Or is it that these 76% are simply out-and-out ignorant Christians?

Supreme Court Rules School Sponsored Prayer Unconstitutional

Santa Fe Independent School District v. Jane Doe

On June 19, 2000, in the case of Santa Fe Independent School District v. Jane Doe (99-62), the Supreme Court ruled 6-3 that a Texas public school district's practice of opening high school football games with a prayer is unconstitutional. The Supreme Court first ruled against school-sponsored prayer in 1962 in Engel v. Vitale. Since then, the Court has consistently ruled against school-sponsored worship, while permitting voluntary student-initiated religious activities. The Santa Fe case began in 1995 when the parents of two students sued their Texas school district in federal court following adoption of a policy allowing students to elect a classmate to deliver a prayer over the stadium's public address system prior to football games.
source



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Lol, they're all for religion in schools until someone starts pushing a different religion or world view on their kids and then they couldn't agree more about keeping religion out of schools.

 

[JustWondering]

So you don't believe the Bible, then?


Romans 13:1-7

It's passages like that in the bible that make it obviously clear the new testament was written to turn people into sheeple and exploit them. You really think god would want people to mindlessly bow their heads to authority regardless of what authority it is? Use your minds people. If a creator god made us it gave us a brain for a reason, yet a lot of religions and ideologies condemn thinking for yourself and demand mindless obedience. So religions and ideologies demanding mindless obedience claiming a creator as its authority don't stand up against logical, rational scrutiny. If a creator exists I like to think it regards reason and intelligence as virtues, not gullibility and mindless obedience to authority.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm specifically talking about Christian prayers, as that is the sort that I'd be happy with in public schools. Wiccans can have a private school if they aren't happy. Luckily in the UK people aren't that bothered...

Why should Christianity get any special favors or treatments? That is why it more fair to more people to have no school sponsored religion at all.

 

[McBell]

Why should Christianity get any special favors or treatments? That is why it more fair to more people to have no school sponsored religion at all.

Sounds like he is all for prayer in school, but ONLY if it is his preferred religion.

 

[JustWondering]

Why I would send my child to a Muslim school I'll never know. As to the several landmark cases, I would refer to the fallibility of the Supreme Court once again, and cannot find the exclusion of schools from having prayers actually in the constitutional text.

It would be a PUBLIC school, not a Muslim school. Some Muslim students going to the same school as your Christian kids would demand time during the day for classes to stop for them to pray towards Mecca while the Christian kids and teachers have to respectively wait until they finish. Fair is fair. Next thing you know nothing is being taught at public schools because the schools are spending all their time trying to facilitate everyone's non-education related, personal business. Schools are for educating our children, Churches are for praying. I don't understand why this concept is too difficult for theists to grasp. Maybe theists do understand, maybe they just want to cram their religion down other people's throats.

 

[JustWondering]

Was Christopher Hitchens' difficulty with the issue a religious ideal, and his dismissal of those who would suggest there is no valid conflict? And while this is indeed shameless name-dropping, it's still a very good piece well-worth reading: http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2003/02/hitchens200302

Where in the bible does it say abortion is wrong?

Pro-lifers want to think they have the moral high ground for protecting the unborn yet are typically against gun control laws and for wars in other countries. So why do Christian pro-lifers think the lives of the unborn are more important than the lives of those already born?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Only if you are a christian.

Nonsense, as I've said before, in Britain (which has become very secular) there is hardly anyone who minds, in fact many non-Christians like prayers and hymns.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Sure thing. Here's something from the BBC and here's a (rather dated) Q&A thing from the Church of England as well they did as well

This doesn't seem to actually happen much... at all.

It's the state church and it has privileged access to the law-making process through members in the legislature. It's part of the government.

I already said that the bishops are lefties anyway, you should be happy.

I don't see the big deal with this, has there been some great bill struck down by the power of these evil bishops?

As I said before, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'm looking for practical examples of these negative effects, not ideological objections that oppose it on principle while lacking for practical evidence of detriment.

I was partially referring to the chancel repairs liability thing as that also counts as state financial assistance; but also to this story from 2014 as an example if you would consider it acceptable.

Psssh £20 mill overall for the fund for repairing churches. That would fund the NHS for less than two hours.

That's not what I've heard.

What you referring to? I understand they can get a bit 'conservative' on more moral issues, like assisted dying, but there are valid concerns with the bill for both liberals and conservatives.

Otherwise when it comes to economic issues, welfare, etc., they lean very much to the left. These poor bishops crave your acceptance! Why do you scorn their lovesick hearts?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

First Baseman brought up the tangent in his failed attempt to present samples of Constitution violations.
So perhaps you should go talk to him?

Oh, I see. Why bring that up with me then?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Where in the bible does it say abortion is wrong?

It certainly doesn't in the OT.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Why should Christianity get any special favors or treatments? That is why it more fair to more people to have no school sponsored religion at all.

Because it's just prayers, and the vast majority of people don't mind the religion of their country's culture and traditions having some input, however minimal.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

It would be a PUBLIC school, not a Muslim school. Some Muslim students going to the same school as your Christian kids would demand time during the day for classes to stop for them to pray towards Mecca while the Christian kids and teachers have to respectively wait until they finish. Fair is fair. Next thing you know nothing is being taught at public schools because the schools are spending all their time trying to facilitate everyone's non-education related, personal business. Schools are for educating our children, Churches are for praying. I don't understand why this concept is too difficult for theists to grasp. Maybe theists do understand, maybe they just want to cram their religion down other people's throats.

It's just a couple prayers in the morning.

And schools would still accommodate for Muslim students if there are enough of them (which would be the fault of mass immigration), regardless of having Christian prayers or not. You can't just tell kids to not practise their religious beliefs when at school.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Where in the bible does it say abortion is wrong?

God knows people from the womb, etc.

Pro-lifers want to think they have the moral high ground for protecting the unborn yet are typically against gun control laws

Why is this a valid comparison? A belief in a right to own a weapon, and being against the deliberate murder of unborn?

and for wars in other countries.
So why do Christian pro-lifers think the lives of the unborn are more important than the lives of those already born?

Waging war out of self-defence, or in the national interest, is not the same as murdering defenceless innocent unborn, and is not targeting innocents (though of course "collateral damage" does occur) but rather the immoral regime or leadership or group that is endangering our citizens. The unborn do not attack me, unless you've been watching some B-rated creepy horror movie.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Because it's just prayers, and the vast majority of people don't mind the religion of their country's culture and traditions having some input, however minimal.

The predominate religion having some input here means my civil rights were placed beneath religious objections.
And that doesn't answer why Christianity should get special treatment and favors. Allowing the schools to lead and sponsor prayer is promoting a specific religion and interpretation (some Christians refuse to pray in public), even though the purpose and function of school is to teach, not to preach.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

The predominate religion having some input here means my civil rights were placed beneath religious objections.
And that doesn't answer why Christianity should get special treatment and favors. Allowing the schools to lead and sponsor prayer is promoting a specific religion and interpretation (some Christians refuse to pray in public), even though the purpose and function of school is to teach, not to preach.

If there is significant opposition then as I've said it defeats the point and schools shouldn't do it. Otherwise it's a benign harmless thing, I'm not saying schools should 'preach', but using prayers in line with the religion of the culture and traditions of the land is no biggie.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Otherwise it's a benign harmless thing, I'm not saying schools should 'preach', but using prayers in line with the religion of the culture and traditions of the land is no biggie.

It still goes back to the question of why should Christian prayer be promoted but not Satanic, Wiccan, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or others? If Christians get their time to pray, are we going to let a Buddhist student go off and meditate while the Wiccan student goes off to put on their religious garb and lights incense sticks?

 

[JustWondering]

It's just a couple prayers in the morning.

And schools would still accommodate for Muslim students if there are enough of them (which would be the fault of mass immigration), regardless of having Christian prayers or not. You can't just tell kids to not practise their religious beliefs when at school.

If it is that important they need to attend a private school. Or leave school and go to prayer at a mosque/church and make up their school work on their own time later instead of disrupting everyone else's education. A public school is for education not prayer.