When was Yeshua born? Summer/Winter

[Poisonshady313]

You said eating the matzah, so I asked if you had special matzah as in flavored or different from the normal matzah.

"the" as in the matzah referred to in verse 18th.

No, it's not a special matzah.

But while we're on the subject of special matzah, check out this article and learn about Shmurah matzah.
The Difference Between Shmurah Matzah and Regular Matzah - Matzah - Passover

(basically, very carefully prepared matzah)

My post would work just as well if I had just said "matzah" instead of "the matzah".

 

[Poisonshady313]

unfermented cakes were eaten the night before passover celebration began as you stated already

and as exodus states, the 14th was the first night of the celebration of the unfermented cakes, then at the following sundown, passover

The 14th was not a celebration. The 14th is when Jews start eating matzah.

But I repeat... the 14th was NOT "the first night of the celebration of the unfermented cakes"

I think issue is that the gospel accounts speak of the 'unfermented cakes and the passover' as one event rather then as two separate celebrations. And then there is also the difference as you pointed out of the jewish calender

They aren't two separate celebrations. The 14th isn't a celebration at all.

 

[Drolefille]

As for the days of the week (and the months for that matter) We adopted the Roman's calendar, so obviously we have Roman names, it's not wrong to have such things

Your point will probably remain but you'll notice those are Norse gods, not Roman ones. Most of the romance languages kept Latin base names for their days of the week which have Roman gods as their basis for names (some at least if not all.)

Just a factual correction

 

[Poisonshady313]

I think I found a part of the problem. Crappy translation of Exodus 12:17, which says: And YOU must keep the festival of unfermented cakes,...

Let's take a look at a better translation:
You shall safeguard the matzos, for on this very day I will have taken your legions out of the land of Egypt; you shall observe this day for your generations as an eternal decree.
Apparently, some awful translator saw "safeguard the matzos" and turned it into "observe the festival of matzos".

 

[Pegg]

The 14th was not a celebration. The 14th is when Jews start eating matzah.

But I repeat... the 14th was NOT "the first night of the celebration of the unfermented cakes"

They aren't two separate celebrations. The 14th isn't a celebration at all.

perhaps that is not how it is viewed today, but it seems that the festival of unfermented cakes was a prelude to the passover celebration at least in the first century

Can you explain what the difference is between Exodus, and what the jews do today?

Exodus12:17 “‘And YOU must keep the festival of unfermented cakes, because on this very day I must bring YOUR armies out from the land of Egypt. And YOU must keep this day throughout YOUR generations as a statute to time indefinite. 18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening YOU are to eat unfermented cakes down till the twenty-first day of the month in the evening

What is different about these instructions and what you do today???

 

[Poisonshady313]

perhaps that is not how it is viewed today, but it seems that the festival of unfermented cakes was a prelude to the passover celebration at least in the first century

Can you explain what the difference is between Exodus, and what the jews do today?

Exodus12:17 “‘And YOU must keep the festival of unfermented cakes, because on this very day I must bring YOUR armies out from the land of Egypt. And YOU must keep this day throughout YOUR generations as a statute to time indefinite. 18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening YOU are to eat unfermented cakes down till the twenty-first day of the month in the evening

What is different about these instructions and what you do today???

You have a crappy translation.

Sure, on the 14th we start eating matzah... but it is not a festival. It is not a celebration.

 

[Poisonshady313]

The verse begins this way:

וּשְׁמַרְתֶּם אֶת הַמַּצּוֹת
Observe the matzos

It doesn't say וּשְׁמַרְתֶּם אֶת הַיּוֹם הַמַּצּוֹת (Observe the day of the matzos)
It doesn't say וּשְׁמַרְתֶּם אֶת הַחַג הַמַּצּוֹת (Observe the festival of the matzos)

It wouldn't even make sense for it to be a festival of "the" matzos, because it isn't a festival centered around a particular matzah, or even several particular matzos.


Watch the matzos (i.e. don't let them become contaminated with leaven)

 

[Pegg]

You have a crappy translation.

Sure, on the 14th we start eating matzah... but it is not a festival. It is not a celebration.

Well as I said before, the eating of the unfermented cakes and the passover were spoken of as the one festival at least in the first century.

ie: Luke 22:1 Now the festival of the unfermented cakes, the so-called Passover, was getting near.

It may not be spoken of like that today, but it certainly was back then according to the Jewish writers of the greek scriptures.

I would also direct your attention to Numbers 28:16 which says “‘And in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, will be Jehovah’s passover"
According to this scripture, passover began on the 14th day of the month in harmony with when Isreal went out of Egypt.

and at exodus 12:14 the words 'memorial' and 'feasts' are used to describe what was to occur on the 14th day of the month.
Also at Ezekiel 45:21 it confirms the above: “‘In the first [month], on the fourteenth day of the month, there should occur for YOU the passover. As a festival for seven days unfermented cakes are what should be eaten


This is why i asked you what you do differently today as to what they did back then?

 

[jarofthoughts]

When do you think Yeshua(Jesus) was born? In the summer, or the winter, does a church subscribe to a time that you agree with? Present your evidence and vote.

If we are to base this on the biblical account, summer, spring or maybe early autumn makes the most sense.
Certainly not in the winter, and the celebration of Christmas on the 25th of December has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus, but was an attempt to stop the Romans from celebrating Saturnalia, which in itself is not an original celebration either, but stems back to the winter solstice, an event celebrated by humans for at least 7-10.000 years, i.e. longer than any of the present day religions have existed.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

No one knows for sure...
However his birth must be celebrated at some point in the year,
so I can see no reason to move away from tradition.
The Church calendar has been followed for hundreds of years and gives a sound framework to worship.
If people want to celebrate Christmas on their own, and at another time of the year.
Then good luck to them, their lives will be the poorer for it.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Well as I said before, the eating of the unfermented cakes and the passover were spoken of as the one festival at least in the first century.

ie: Luke 22:1 Now the festival of the unfermented cakes, the so-called Passover, was getting near.

It may not be spoken of like that today, but it certainly was back then according to the Jewish writers of the greek scriptures.

as far as I'm concerned, the writers of the Greek scriptures were either liars or idiots, so don't expect me to be impressed with "Luke".

I would also direct your attention to Numbers 28:16 which says “‘And in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, will be Jehovah’s passover"
According to this scripture, passover began on the 14th day of the month in harmony with when Isreal went out of Egypt.

The 14th is when the Passover is slaughtered. That's not the festival. The festival is on the 15th when the Passover is eaten.

and at exodus 12:14 the words 'memorial' and 'feasts' are used to describe what was to occur on the 14th day of the month.
Also at Ezekiel 45:21 it confirms the above: “‘In the first [month], on the fourteenth day of the month, there should occur for YOU the passover. As a festival for seven days unfermented cakes are what should be eaten

. I'll check that when I get home. But you're probably wrong about that the same way you're wrong about exodus 12:17.

This is why i asked you what you do differently today as to what they did back then?

Nothing that reflects your misunderstanding of poorly translated scripture.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

From Etz Hayim ...

THE FESTIVAL OF MATZOT (vv. 14-20)

The focus is on the festival of matzot, "unleavened bread." Without doubt, throughout the biblical period this selebration remained distinct from the one-day paschal rite. Indeed, the next chapter (13:6-8) establishes the laws of [i[mazot[/i] and makes no mention of the paschal sacrifice. Lev 23:5-6 similarly differentiates one from the other ... Special Passovers were celebrated in the reigns of Kings Hezekiah and Josia, both of whom were associated with major reformations (see 2 Chron. 30,35). We are told in Ezra 6:19-22 that when the exiles returned from Babylon they "celebrated the Passover on the fourteenth day of the first month," and then "joyfully celebrated the Feast of Unleavened Bread for seven days."

 

[Poisonshady313]

From Etz Hayim ...

​

The etz hayim, which uses the JPS translation, which includes the word "festival" which doesn't actually occur in exodus 12:17.

I hope you'll forgive me if I don't go along with what etz hayim has to say on this matter.

 

[Poisonshady313]

5. In the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, in the afternoon, [you shall sacrifice] the Passover offering to the Lord.
6. And on the fifteenth day of that month is the Festival of Unleavened Cakes to the Lord; you shall eat unleavened cakes for a seven day period.
Lev 23


Just like I said. The pesach offering is brought on the 14th in the afternoon. The 7 day festival begins on the 15th.

They are not two separate festivals, nor does chag ha matzot begin on the 14th. Nothing in the Torah suggests otherwise.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The etz hayim, which uses the JPS translation, which includes the word "festival" which doesn't actually occur in exodus 12:17.

I'm not too sure what you're saying. The JPS does not use use the term "festival" in its rendering of Exodus 12:17.

I hope you'll forgive me if I don't go along with what etz hayim has to say on this matter.

You are free to choose or dismiss what you wish. Meanwhile, I'll try to remember to check Plaut and Sarna tonight.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I'm not too sure what you're saying. The JPS does not use use the term "festival" in its rendering of Exodus 12:17.

And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt; therefore shall ye observe this day throughout your generations by an ordinance for ever.

Jewish Bible (JPS 1917) - Shemot Chapter 12

Perhaps an updated version of the JPS translates this verse more accurately.


How does Etz Hayim render the verse?

You are free to choose or dismiss what you wish. Meanwhile, I'll try to remember to check Plaut and Sarna tonight.

Ok.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Ezra 6:19

The people of the exile brought the pesach offering on the fourteenth day of the first month.


I don't see anything about anything being joyously celebrated on the 14th.


This is consistent with what I've been saying all along.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm not too sure what you're saying. The JPS does not use use the term "festival" in its rendering of Exodus 12:17.

And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt; therefore shall ye observe this day throughout your generations by an ordinance for ever.

Jewish Bible (JPS 1917) - Shemot Chapter 12.

A couple of points:

1. I still do not see the term "festival" being employed.
2. Etz Hayim, Plaut, the JPS Commentary, and a few others use the 1999 JPS translation.
3. This translation reads:
   

   You shall observe the [Feast of] Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your ranks out of the land of Egypt; you shall observe this day throughout the ages as an institution for all time.

   The associated commentary reads:
   

   You shall observe the [Feast of] Unleavened Bread Understanding the phrase "u-sh'martem et ha-matzot" (literally, "guard the matzot") in this way is based on the the next phrase - "on this very day" - which takes the word "matzot" to mean the festival (Hag ha-Matzot). (For a parallel passage, see 23:15.)

Perhaps an updated version of the JPS translates this verse more accurately.

The question then becomes: Accurate according to what standard? But more on that later. At issue here is whether or not the JPS rendering stands outside the bounds of legitimate Jewish translation, and I would be very careful before summarily rejecting Sarna et. al.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

as far as I'm concerned, the writers of the Greek scriptures were either liars or idiots, ...

Really? Wow!

BTW ...

From Targum Onkelos ...

XII. And the Lord spake to Mosheh and Aharon in the land of Mizraim, saying, This month shall be to you the beginning of the months; the first, it shall be to you, of the months of the year. Speak with all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb for the house of a father, a lamb for the house. And if the house be smaller than the numbering (required) for the lamb, let him take himself, and his neighbour who is nearest to his house, according to the number of the souls, every man according to the mouth of his eating shall you count over the lamb. The lamb shall be perfect, a male, the son of a year; it shall be to you; from the sheep or from the goats you may take it. And you shall have it in keeping till the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole church (kehala) of the congregation of Israel shall kill him between the suns. And they shall take of the blood, and apply it upon the two posts and upon the lintel of the houses in which they eat him. And they shall eat the flesh in that night roasted with fire, and (with) unleavened cake with bitters you shall eat him. You shall not eat of it while living, neither boiled with boiling in water, but roasted with fire; his head with his feet and his inwards. And you shall not leave of it till the morning; and that which remains of it till morning you shall burn in the fire. And thus shall you eat it; with your loins girded, with your sandals on your feet, and your staves in your hands, and you shall eat it in haste; it is the Pascha before the Lord. And I will appear in the land of Mizraim in that night, and will kill every firstborn in the land from man unto beast, and on all the idols of Mizraim I will execute judgment: I am the Lord. And the blood shall be for you a sign upon the houses where you are; and I will see the blood, and will have mercy upon you, and there shall not be among you the destruction of death when I slay in the land of Mizraim. And this day shall be to you for a memorial, and you shall solemnize it a festival before the Lord in your generations; an everlasting ordinance (covenant) shall you solemnize it. And on the first day there shall be an holy congregation, and on the seventh day an holy congregation shall there be to you. Every kind of work may not be done in them; save what pertains to the eating of every soul, that only may be done by you. And you shall keep the (feast of the) Unleavened; for on this very day shall I have brought your hosts out of the land of Mizraim, and you shall keep this day to all your generations for ever. In Nisan, on the fourteenth day of the month in the evening you shall eat unleavened, until the twenty and first of the mouth in the evening. Seven days leaven shall not be found in your houses; for whosoever will eat of that which is leavened, that man shall perish from the congregation of Israel, of the stranger, or of the native of the land. You shall eat no leavened (food), in all your dwellings you shall eat unleavened

From Targum Pseudo-Jonathan ...

XII. And the Lord spoke to Mosheh and to Aharon in the land of Mizraim, saying, This month is ordained to be to you the beginning of the months; and from it you shall begin to number for festivals, and times, and cycles; it shall be to you the first of the number of the months of the year. Speak to all the congregation of the children of Israel, saying, In the tenth of this month, whose time is appointed for this time (occasion), and not for (coming) generations, they shall take to them a lamb for the house of a family, and, if many in number, they shall take a lamb for a house: but if the men of the house are fewer than ten in number, in proportion to a sufficient number to eat the lamb, he and his neighbour who is nearest to his house shall take according to the number of souls: each man according to the sufficiency of his eating shall be counted for the lamb. The lamb shall be perfect, a male, the son of a year he shall be to you; from the sheep or from the young goats ye may take. And it shall be bound and reserved for you until the fourteenth day of this month, that you may not know the fear of the Mizraee when they see it; and ye shall kill him according to the rite of all to congregation of the assembly of Israel, between the suns. And you shall take of the blood and set it upon the two posts and upon the upper board outside of the houses in which you eat and sleep. And you shall eat the flesh on that night, the fifteenth of Nisan, until the dividing of the night roasted with fire, [JERUSALEM. Roasted,] without leaven, with horehound and lettuce shall you eat it. Eat not of it while living, neither boiled in wine, or oil, or other fluids, neither boiled in water, but roasted with fire, with its head, and its feet, and its inwards. Nor shall any be left of it till the morning; but what may remain of it in the morning you shall cover over, and in the daylight of the sixteenth day burn with fire; for you may not burn the residue of a holy oblation on the feast day. And according to this manner you shall eat it, this time, but not in (other) generations: your loins shall be girded, [JERUSALEM. Bound by the precepts of the law,] your shoes on your feet, and your staves in your hands; and you shall eat in the fear of the majesty of the Lord of the world; because mercy hath been shown to you from before the Lord. And I will be revealed in the land of Mizraim in the majesty of My glory this night, and with Me ninety thousand myriads of destroying angels; and I will slay all the firstborn in the land of Mizraim, of man and of beast, and against all the idols of the Mizraee I will execute four judgments: the molten idols shall be melted, the idols of stone be broken, the idols of clay shall he shattered, and the idols of wood be made dust, that the Mizraee may know that I am the Lord. And the blood of the paschal oblation, (like) the matter of circumcision, shall be a bail for you, to become a sign upon the houses where you dwell; and I will look upon the worth of the blood, and will spare you; and the angel of death, to whom is given the power to destroy, shall have no dominion over you in the slaughter of the Mizraee. And this day shall be to you for a memorial, and you shall celebrate it a festival before the Lord in your generations; by a perpetual statute shall you solemnize it. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread: in the dividing of the day which precedes the feast you shall put away leaven from your houses; for whosoever eateth what is leavened, from the first day of the feast until the seventh day, that man shall be destroyed from Israel. And on the first day there shall be a holy congregation, and on the seventh day there shall be to you a holy congregation. No work shall be done among you, only that which must be done for every one's eating may be done by you. And you shall observe the feast of the unleavened bread, because in this same day the Lord will bring out your hosts free from the land of Mizraim; and you shall observe this day in your generations, a statute for ever. In Nisan, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall kill the passover, and at evening on the fifteenth you shall eat unleavened bread until the twenty-first of the month. On the evening of the twenty-second you may eat leavened bread. For seven days leaven shall not be found in your houses; for whosoever eateth of leaven, that man shall perish from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger or home-bred in the land. Any mixture of leaven you shall not eat; in every place of your habitation you shall eat unleavened bread.

 

[peacecrusader888]

20111130.0625

When was Yeshua born? Summer/Winter. Yeshua or Jesus was NOT born on Nisan 14. Nisan is the first month of the lunar religious year. It is a spring month but is still cold though. The spring months are Nisan, Iyyar, and Sivan. Jesus was born on Sivan 10, 3728, a Thursday.

Joseph and Mary departed Nazareth on Sivan 6, 3728 after the Jewish Sabbath. They reached Bethlehem on Sivan 9. That evening, Jesus was born.