• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Which One do you think is more faithful and loyal ?

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
There are two kind of persons.

1st: The one who believe in the existence of God
2nd: Who Doesn't believe in the existence of God.

Which One do you think is more faithful and loyal towards others and why ? :)

I prefer to apply more useful standards, and expect faithfullness and loyalty from people who have proven themselves to be faithful and loyal. Using arbitrary attributes to make determinations about unrelated behaviors is generally unproductive, and often counterproductive.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My question was why do you think a person wouldn't view his religion's message to be peaceful and loving.

Well my point was is that maybe the problem is not the religion. Maybe the problem is that people are not willing to understand it.

Well mine was that not all people are religious in the first place. You seem to be missing that from what you consider quite a given. They're not religious for a reason.

While someone may think their religion is peaceful and loving, their understanding of both it and of peace and love may not be so peaceful and loving in many people's judgement, and might actually be quite horrible.

Finally, even for religions that are all about peace and love, they obviously do not always bring out the best in people or work with them, sometimes the opposite happens despite of the religion's peaceful nature.

So overall, religions are not all about peace and love in my view as you propose, nor does belief in god bring out the best in people.
 

Gehennaite

Active Member
I don't think a person's moral character is necessarily contingent upon belief in God, though it no doubt serves to enhance it. We are each responsible for our own actions, though I feel that atheists are more likely to embrace amoral or nihilistic philosophies about humanity.

Atheists are only recently beginning to adopt humanistic philosophies as essential to their understanding.
 

chinu

chinu
Personally, you can't truly judge someone about how loyal they are by whether they believe in God or not.
But I say.. one can't truly judge someone about one believe in God or not, even if someone address him/herself as a big-theist, or a big-atheist.
 

chinu

chinu
With all due respect, to suggest one over the other is naive. There are people who are faithful and loyal, and others who are not. The belief in God, or not, is not a deciding factor in how people will act.
Its not the deciding factor, its just the factor you can see.
For example: The child who knows that he/she is being watched by his parents, Never do any wrong work. Whereas the same child can do wrong work when he/she knows that parents are not watching :)
 

chinu

chinu
Your original post implies there are differences in morality, trust, loyalty, and faithfulness, - between Theists and Non-Theists.
Of course, there's difference. In fact the one who is more faithful/loyal, Is more theist according to me.

According to me.. Theism is judged on the basis of how much loyal/faithful one is. Instead of judging loyalty/faithfulness on the basis of Theist/Atheist.

Instead of calculating someone on the basis of what one address him/herself as to be, I always try to calculate someone on the basis of loyalty, faithful etc. :)
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Well mine was that not all people are religious in the first place. You seem to be missing that from what you consider quite a given. They're not religious for a reason.

While someone may think their religion is peaceful and loving, their understanding of both it and of peace and love may not be so peaceful and loving in many people's judgement, and might actually be quite horrible.

Finally, even for religions that are all about peace and love, they obviously do not always bring out the best in people or work with them, sometimes the opposite happens despite of the religion's peaceful nature.

So overall, religions are not all about peace and love in my view as you propose, nor does belief in god bring out the best in people.


Not really. Those who don't see think their religion is not peaceful, than they didn't have the correct understanding of it. It is not because it is ambiguous, it is because they don't want to understand.

There are things that are obvious. Like "love you neighbor" or "nobody of you will believe until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself". These are major things from "Christianity" and "Islam".

If you want to look at people and judge a religion, judge it by those who try to adapt this to their life. Not every called "Christian" is a practicing "Christian" and not every called "muslim" is a practicing "muslim".
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not really.

That would have been much more meaningful if you had actually understood what i said.

You originally said in your first post:

Let's not forget that all religions are about peace and loving each other.

So believing in God brings out the best of us, no matter who we are.

By reminding everyone that religions are about peace and love and concluding things from that, you're assuming that there actually is agreement that religions are all about peace and love, which makes your statement look silly.

You're assuming that all people view religions positively, but that some are non-religious anyway. Then conclude from it that under any circumstances, being religious and believing in god would be something that brings out the best in people.

So aside from the fact that what you're saying is demonstrably false based on the existence of people who are religious and who believe in god and who are not peaceful and loving people, there's also terrible reasoning in making a baseless and an obviously untrue assumption about how religions are judged and seen by people.

Those who don't see think their religion is not peaceful, than they didn't have the correct understanding of it. It is not because it is ambiguous, it is because they don't want to understand.

I'm happy to hear what makes you think you have the authority, basis, and most importantly of all, nearly the sufficient knowledge to be stating what is the correct understanding of the different religions around the world, and further determining whether or not people really want to understand.

Then, i'm happy to hear your excuse for ignoring the fact that embracing religion and believing in god does not make people peaceful and loving all the time, regardless of the correctness or incorrectness of their understanding of those things, because contrary to your original claim, where you didn't provide any qualifications or distinctions, even if we assume they have an incorrect understanding, that doesn't address the fact that they would be religious and theist individuals, who have not had the best of themselves brought out by religion and god.

There are things that are obvious. Like "love you neighbor" or "nobody of you will believe until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself". These are major things from "Christianity" and "Islam".

There also some other obvious things from those religions and others, though, which are not quite so universally accepted as a positive thing, and you already know that. There are teachings like making a distinction between people who believe and people who don't believe, deeming one group to go paradise while the other to go to an infinite hell, teachings about how the believing group should approach and treat that unbelieving group, teachings proposing endless types of restrictions of various kinds that some believers should inflict on others, teachings about various punishments for various kinds of acts that should be carried out by people on each other, teachings granting different groups or classes of people a different set of rights and privileges, teachings about animal sacrifices, teachings about self-inflicted pain, teachings about self-imposed restrictions, etc.

Within all those and many other types of teachings, there are endless differing views between people regarding the efficiency, truthfulness, effects, and nature of those proposed things. Whether or not they're positive, and whether or not they're perceived as a reasonable thing to teach to others, or in fact a horrible set of teachings to approach life with.

If you want to look at people and judge a religion, judge it by those who try to adapt this to their life. Not every called "Christian" is a practicing "Christian" and not every called "muslim" is a practicing "muslim".

I might do that if i have an unhealthy inclination to being both simplistic and selective. I don't though, so i won't.

Rather i'll ideally try to look at both positive and negative examples, the culture surrounding their existence and the culture from which the teachings emerged, and the texts and teachings of the religion itself and how they come off to me .
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
Your original post implies there are differences in morality, trust, loyalty, and faithfulness, - between Theists and Non-Theists.
Of course, there's difference. In fact the one who is more faithful/loyal, Is more theist according to me.

According to me.. Theism is judged on the basis of how much loyal/faithful one is. Instead of judging loyalty/faithfulness on the basis of Theist/Atheist.

Instead of calculating someone on the basis of what one address him/herself as to be, I always try to calculate someone on the basis of loyalty, faithful etc. :)


This is just ignorant bigotry.

It has been shown by multiple studies that this is false.

http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.pdf

Journal of Religion & Society Volume 7

Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health
with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous
Democracies

"Cross-national comparisons of highly differing rates of religiosity and societal conditions form a mass epidemiological experiment that can be used to test whether high rates of belief in and worship of a creator are necessary for high levels of social health. Data correlations show that in almost all regards the highly secular democracies consistently enjoy low rates of societal dysfunction, while pro-religious and antievolution America performs poorly."

*

http://www.care2.com/causes/atheists-have-stronger-family-values-than-evangelical-christians.html

Atheists Have Stronger Family Values Than Evangelical Christians

"The family that prays together may be less likely to stay together. Research shows that the folks trying hardest to force their religious beliefs on other people, Evangelical Christians, are more likely to divorce than those with no religion at all."

"In the United States, the “more religious a state’s population, the higher the crime, STD and teen pregnancy rates,” reports Al Westerfield in Knoxville News, summing up the findings of empirical studies. The same pattern holds true when comparing countries: more religious people means more crime, more sexually transmitted diseases and higher teen pregnancy rates.

The numbers make it all the more bewildering that Christians find atheists about as trustworthy as rapists."



*
 
Last edited:

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Child never do any wrong in the presence of parents, And the SAME child can do wrong work in the absence of parents, Why ? :)

The morality of the child is not in agreement with the ethics imposed by the parents.

A mistake of the parents to assume that by imposing their ethics the behavior of the child will change when the child is left on its own.
 
Top