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Which statement is more likely to be true:
- Thread starter Jeremiah
- Start date
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
Except the natural numbers is the same size as (natural numbers +1).
Erebus
Well-Known Member
I went for no, humans don't know what created existence. While I think that the big bang is a good explanation for how our universe came into being, we can't know whether ours is the only one and what caused the circumstances to allow the big bang to occur anyway. "God did it" in my mind is something of a cop out. It's not impossible, it's just presumptuous.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
Please educate yourself. It helps a lot. The set of natural numbers has an infinite size, but adding any finite number to that infinity does not change its value. Even adding the same infinity to itself doesn't change it's value.
Rhi_bran_y_hud
New Member
I voted yes because if some humans know that Creator, then yes we know what created the universe. However, I think the question itself is a farce.
That is because it is not a matter of likely or unlikely as to whether we could stumble upon the information (which is how the question seems to frame the issue), but a matter of whether the Creator chooses to reveal Himself. It is true: apart from Him telling us, we would not know; none of us were there. Yet the question obscures the possibility that He could just tell somebody, or even publish it. There is no quantifying the probability of whether He would do that.
That said, the question does an excellent job of showing us exactly how much need Him in order to know even the most basic things.
That is because it is not a matter of likely or unlikely as to whether we could stumble upon the information (which is how the question seems to frame the issue), but a matter of whether the Creator chooses to reveal Himself. It is true: apart from Him telling us, we would not know; none of us were there. Yet the question obscures the possibility that He could just tell somebody, or even publish it. There is no quantifying the probability of whether He would do that.
That said, the question does an excellent job of showing us exactly how much need Him in order to know even the most basic things.
No more presumptious than the assumption of a Big Bang. There is no proof of a Big Bang, ideas and concepts like this must be formulated in the absence of a creator, thats the only reason they appeal to the intellect as a "good explaination. Even the great athiest scientists like Stephen Hawking have refined their theories to a single "Starting Point" out of which everything else flowed.
It always comes back to, In the Begining God....or In the Beginning...something else. In the God delusion Dawkins argued that "No one knows who created God" in a round about way he presented this lack of knowledge as proof that God doesnt exist. Which is rediculous that some one of his purported intelligence can think he can get away with that kind of "reasoning". This is about the best the so called "great human minds" can come up with.
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PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
Imagine a hotel with infinite rooms, numbered 1,2,3,4 and so on. Also imagine that every room is occupied, and that a new guest arrives who wants a room but doesn't have one. (Your example of a +1)
The guest can be accomadated easily: The person in room 1 moves to room 2, the person in room 2 moves to room 3, and so on. The new guest moves into room 1.
But the important thing here is that I've just put your +1 guest into the same-sized hotel. I haven't changed the hotel itself at all, only rearranged its contents. (Infinity +1) is the same as infinity itself.
Hawking has just published a book saying that God isn't necessary. Try again?
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Erebus
Well-Known Member
I'm aware that the Big Bang is a theory and that there are alternative theories explaining the origins of our universe, but considering our Universe is expanding outwards and considering what we know about the manner in which gravity holds planets together, it seems to make a fair bit of sense. I'm not saying it definitely is the case, just that it makes sense.
As far as the existence of everything is concerned, I don't think we can possibly know, it was to this that i said that "God did it" is presumptuous. I've not heard any scientific theories as to where reality itself came from, but if there are any I would consider them presumptuous too.
Dawkins... isn't the best when it comes to theology. He seems to have a chip on his shoulder about religion in general (Christianity in particular) and misses the point quite frequently.
how can existance be created? think about it.
for something to create existance, it itself would need to exist. the question itself is flawed.
further, infinity is a fictional term, there are at this point no know infinite dimentions. according to the big bang theory, time and space are finite.
for something to create existance, it itself would need to exist. the question itself is flawed.
further, infinity is a fictional term, there are at this point no know infinite dimentions. according to the big bang theory, time and space are finite.
How does one accept that which cannot be justified nor demonstrated?
There are a variety of "infinite" things claimed by theists or religious people, ranging from Nirvana, to Moksha, to god, to Brahman. And then there are scientific observations of the universe and existence as a whole as well.
So do you believe them all? Are you a Buddhist Hindu Christian Muslim Jew physicist? There is no single claim to simply accept. You're basically asking people to accept your version of what you think the alleged infinite is. And the spiritual claims that discuss the origins of existence typically don't even answer any substantial questions that physics can't.
ellenjanuary
Well-Known Member
There's a device used to "contain" infinity at this level in mathematics. It is called Aleph null. (I don't know how to make the symbols appear, so bear with me...
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ...
0 1 -1 2 -2 3 -3 4 -4 5 ...
Using a one-to-one correlation, it can be shown, as the partial sequence of numbers indicates, that every integer from negative infinity (on the left side of the number line) to positive infinity corresponds to the natural numbers 1 to infinity. It seems to contradict common sense - but it's math, what'dya expect - but these two seemingly different sizes of infinity are actually the same size. Aleph null. Even crazier, you can take all the fractions - and there's an infinite number of fractions between zero and one - and stretch them out; and still have a one to one correlation, finding that infinity to be Aleph null as well. It's mathematics. It's not so much a matter of quantity; it is a matter of logical consistency. If you wanna get really crazy, we can talk about Aleph one and the Continuum Hypothesis... Better not. Let's look at it this way...
(Poly, you let me lay down the wrong formula earlier... you know I only got half a brain, jeez) Moving on. If we wrote these terms out, at the size of a quark; and the universe is finite - we'd fill the universe with mathematical scribbles; leave no room for the mathematician; and still not get to infinity. That's where you're getting stuck, right there. Infinity is a well defined concept in mathematics; but it is currently intolerable in physics. You're jumping from pure math - adding one to the largest number you can think of; coming up with a new infinity, which doesn't happen that way - to applied math, thinking there's a well defined concept of infinity in the physical world. There ain't.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
Do you mean the rational or the real numbers? (In other words, do you mean all the fractions you can make by sticking integers over other integers, or do you mean every possible value between 0 and 1?)
When was that?
ellenjanuary
Well-Known Member
I said a + 1/r. I'm a professional.Do you mean the rational or the real numbers? (In other words, do you mean all the fractions you can make by sticking integers over other integers, or do you mean every possible value between 0 and 1?)
Fractions. Don't make this more difficult than it already is.
When was that?
(professional something, anyway; probably something hasn't been invented yet)
ellenjanuary
Well-Known Member
Nah. It works in math; and you can do cool stuff with it.
Of course, you can do cool stuff with Pokemon, too. I used to play that silly game for hours on the Game-Boy.
sky dancer
Active Member
Buddhists consider that existence is dream-like.
javajo
Well-Known Member
I voted yes:
Romans 1
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Romans 1
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Jeremiah
Well-Known Member
And how exactly did you verify that existence is infinite? Did you use your tape-measure?
Simply calling something "infinite" does not actually prove that it is in fact infinite nor does it prove that you know it is infinite. You can postulate an infinite existence, but you'll never actually be able to prove it.
It is a show of ingorance to think you can simply call something "infinite" and somehow, magically, this proves that it is infinite.
Go ahead and postulate, but you don't know if existence is really infinite.