Who caused Satan or the devil rebel

[Shadow Wolf]

So stagnation and order? Sounds deathly boring.

Yeah. We need people to shake things up or life gets dreadfully boring. Everyone should do at least one act of disobedience a day. You don't have to fight (unless necessary) or steal (unless necessary), but not cooperating with police can be fun when you get pulled over if they are too pushy. Failing to live up to what society prescribes to your Self can be another good one. And of course someone has to blurt out those questions that need to be asked when others are too afraid to ask. And get in plenty of daily grey areas, those things that are very borderline, that plenty of people will object to, but there is nothing that can actually be done about it. But always remember to be yourself, and shake up only things were your heart is, because rebelling just to rebel and not having a cause is pretty lame and in itself a blind conformity.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

No, Satan [ nor any of human creation ] was created or made to fall.
Adam, created with human perfection, was given the choice to keep or break God's law. So, Satan, and all angelic creation, also had the same choice.
Satan chose to leave his angelic position - see Jude verse 16

How could he choose if he was pure to begin with? That is my real question. How did he turn evil? Humans only did so because of temptation presented to them by an impure and evil situation. But what could have possibly caused Satan to rebel if he was created perfect?

 

[Etritonakin]

He caused himself to rebel by arrogance and inexperience -but God takes full responsibility for creating the situation which made it possible.
I thought to say ignorance, but God had given him instruction. However, the being which rebelled and was called Satan was obviously ignorant of some facts in that he thought he could accomplish the impossible.

What was said to Eve by Satan was essentially the root of what he had said to himself.

It is not as if God did not know what could or would probably happen, however -and he had already planned for the possibility/eventuality.

God could have kept Satan from Eden -but did not.

God knew that the potential for sin needed to be eradicated altogether.

Part of this process was to cause all to know that God was who he said he was.

Both Satan and Eve were completely new at some point -and didn't know God from Adam (humor intended).

He advised against their choices, and the experience which followed their choices -and still continues -will result in there being absolutely no room for doubt.
Doubt that God is who he says he is, that he has the best interest of all at heart and that he should be obeyed because it is necessarily so due to the nature of things, will be completely eradicated by experience.

Then it is only a matter of individual choice based on that experience.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

He caused himself to rebel by arrogance and inexperience -but God takes full responsibility for creating the situation which made it possible.
I thought to say ignorance, but God had given him instruction. However, the being which rebelled and was called Satan was obviously ignorant of some facts in that he thought he could accomplish the impossible.

What was said to Eve by Satan was essentially the root of what he had said to himself.

It is not as if God did not know what could or would probably happen, however -and he had already planned for the possibility/eventuality.

God could have kept Satan from Eden -but did not.

God knew that the potential for sin needed to be eradicated altogether.

Part of this process was to cause all to know that God was who he said he was.

Both Satan and Eve were completely new at some point -and didn't know God from Adam (humor intended).

He advised against their choices, and the experience which followed their choices -and still continues -will result in there being absolutely no room for doubt.
Doubt that God is who he says he is, that he has the best interest of all at heart and that he should be obeyed because it is necessarily so due to the nature of things, will be completely eradicated by experience.

Then it is only a matter of individual choice based on that experience.

Which is the problem with an all powerful creator god. He set up the situation and people want really badly to give him some kind of excuse as to why Satan exists. God, if he was all powerful, could have stopped him from rebelling, stopped him from harming anyone afterwards or destroyed him.

If he is to be believed as an all powerful god one must accept that this was his intention. God cannot be blameless and all powerful.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

How could he choose if he was pure to begin with? That is my real question. How did he turn evil? Humans only did so because of temptation presented to them by an impure and evil situation. But what could have possibly caused Satan to rebel if he was created perfect?

Are you thinking that Adam was created 'pure' meaning by pure being without sin then both Satan and Adam were created sinless. That does Not mean a creation can not choose to sin. Jesus was ' pure', so to speak, and Jesus chose Not to sin.
Like Satan and Adam, Jesus could have followed in their footsteps if he desired.

Satan was created with angelic perfection. Adam was created with human perfection. Their original leanings would have been upright toward righteousness.
Once they broke God's law their leanings were bent toward wrongdoing.
Unlike imperfect us, they could only deliberately, on purpose, willfully do wrong.
Neither Satan nor Adam ever repented or showed remorse for wrongdoing.
Because we were born with unhealthy human imperfection is why we can do wrong by mistake, accidently, and that is why God sent ' pure' Jesus to earth to balance the Scales of Justice for us, so that we too could gain healthy human perfection as Adam originally had when Adam was created.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Are you thinking that Adam was created 'pure' meaning by pure being without sin then both Satan and Adam were created sinless. That does Not mean a creation can not choose to sin. Jesus was ' pure', so to speak, and Jesus chose Not to sin.
Like Satan and Adam, Jesus could have followed in their footsteps if he desired.

Satan was created with angelic perfection. Adam was created with human perfection. Their original leanings would have been upright toward righteousness.
Once they broke God's law their leanings were bent toward wrongdoing.
Unlike imperfect us, they could only deliberately, on purpose, willfully do wrong.
Neither Satan nor Adam ever repented or showed remorse for wrongdoing.
Because we were born with unhealthy human imperfection is why we can do wrong by mistake, accidently, and that is why God sent ' pure' Jesus to earth to balance the Scales of Justice for us, so that we too could gain healthy human perfection as Adam originally had when Adam was created.

God is all powerful and all encompassing in the Christian faith. He created god and humans in a way so that they would fall. Not that they simply "could" but "would". Jesus in his plan would not.

If I set a baby in the window if it falls out would it not be my fault? Or is it the baby's fault?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Which is the problem with an all powerful creator god. He set up the situation and people want really badly to give him some kind of excuse as to why Satan exists. God, if he was all powerful, could have stopped him from rebelling, stopped him from harming anyone afterwards or destroyed him.
If he is to be believed as an all powerful god one must accept that this was his intention. God cannot be blameless and all powerful.

Why would God stop his gift of free will? To stop or take away the gift of free will would then be No gift at all.

Remember Satan never challenged God's power or strength.
Satan never said God was Not all powerful.
What Satan blamed or challenged was God's rightful rulership over mankind.
Satan wanted man to go against God's law.
By Adam breaking God's law then Adam was taking the law out of God's hands and placing the law into man's hands. Adam set up People Rule as superior to God's Rule.

If Satan and Adam would have been stopped from rebelling then Satan could have charged God with being a Bully, and that would have not settled the issue of Sovereignty [ whose rulership is best ].

The passing of time has allowed for us to be born and think who we would like as Sovereign over us.

There is a difference from being forced to obey and submitting oneself.
Obedience can be forced whereas submitting can be of voluntary heart and mind.
Jesus submitted [ yielded ] himself to his God and Father's Sovereignty and so can we by our free-will choice.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

God is all powerful and all encompassing in the Christian faith. He created god and humans in a way so that they would fall. Not that they simply "could" but "would". Jesus in his plan would not.
If I set a baby in the window if it falls out would it not be my fault? Or is it the baby's fault?

Yes, Jesus could have chosen sin if he wanted to sin.
Sinless Jesus was tested [ Hebrews 4 v 15 ]
Sinless Adam was tested
Neither were set up to sin. Adam chose to sin, Jesus chose Not to sin.
- Deuteronomy 30 v 19

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Why would God stop his gift of free will? To stop or take away the gift of free will would then be No gift at all.

Remember Satan never challenged God's power or strength.
Satan never said God was Not all powerful.
What Satan blamed or challenged was God's rightful rulership over mankind.
Satan wanted man to go against God's law.
By Adam breaking God's law then Adam was taking the law out of God's hands and placing the law into man's hands. Adam set up People Rule as superior to God's Rule.

If Satan and Adam would have been stopped from rebelling then Satan could have charged God with being a Bully, and that would have not settled the issue of Sovereignty [ whose rulership is best ].

The passing of time has allowed for us to be born and think who we would like as Sovereign over us.

There is a difference from being forced to obey and submitting oneself.
Obedience can be forced whereas submitting can be of voluntary heart and mind.
Jesus submitted [ yielded ] himself to his God and Father's Sovereignty and so can we by our free-will choice.

That is great and all but the problem is if we make the wrong choice (even if it isn't our fault) god will punish the crap out of us. If god felt we could just rebel and thats fine then its all great and no one has a problem. But we have a god here (in this concept anyway) that gives us free will and then punishes us when we use it.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Yes, Jesus could have chosen sin if he wanted to sin.
Sinless Jesus was tested [ Hebrews 4 v 15 ]
Sinless Adam was tested
Neither were set up to sin. Adam chose to sin, Jesus chose Not to sin.
- Deuteronomy 30 v 19

But nothing happens that is not the will of god yes? What would have happened if god set up Jesus to die for our sins and then on the cross he began cursing the names of everyone and their grandmother and spit in the face of god?

 

[Etritonakin]

Which is the problem with an all powerful creator god. He set up the situation and people want really badly to give him some kind of excuse as to why Satan exists. God, if he was all powerful, could have stopped him from rebelling, stopped him from harming anyone afterwards or destroyed him.

If he is to be believed as an all powerful god one must accept that this was his intention. God cannot be blameless and all powerful.

For a created being to be truly individual and creative, God necessarily had to put power in their hands. God is blameless -but he is also ultimately responsible.

It was no surprise that beings could reject his instruction -but they did not have to.

Two thirds of the angels did not turn against God and have remained obedient to that which does not destroy and cause misery.

 

[Etritonakin]

But nothing happens that is not the will of god yes? What would have happened if god set up Jesus to die for our sins and then on the cross he began cursing the names of everyone and their grandmother and spit in the face of god?

No. That's the whole point of him giving us individual will. We can refuse to do his will. He willed to allow this, however. Otherwise, he could not reproduce himself.
He is creating gods who eventually have no possibility of sinning -because they know it is simply a bad choice which brings misery. Then they can create wonderful things eternally without having to be eternally micromanaged.

Christ grew to know himself/who he was over time -as stated in scripture -so I can't be absolutely certain how much of all his Godly experience was in his human mind when he suffered and died. I haven't really studied the question -but the whole "knowing good and evil" thing is definitely an advantage to God. God knows enough that there is absolutely no motivation for his heart to turn to evil -whether Christ was human in this respect when he was tempted, I don't know.
(God admittedly has purposed evil at times -that people experience things which are not good. Call it a technicality, but it is an extremely important one -such as when a parent has the best interest of a child at heart, has tried everything, but the child chooses to do the wrong things, and the parent purposes that they learn from the bad experiences their choices will bring. So, the evil purposed is to turn one to good. God does not desire that any die -even though one bible quote reads "Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many." The end result will be their eternal life.).

God did give the creation over to futility in hope -and is fully responsible -though this does not equate to blame.

 

[Etritonakin]

That is great and all but the problem is if we make the wrong choice (even if it isn't our fault) god will punish the crap out of us. If god felt we could just rebel and thats fine then its all great and no one has a problem. But we have a god here (in this concept anyway) that gives us free will and then punishes us when we use it.

The judgments of God do consider whether one is truly at fault or not -their level of knowledge, understanding, accountability, etc. -and not all judgments are simply "punishments", either -even if they include unpleasant experiences.
That is to say that God's intent is not that people experience bad things, but that they be purified so as to not produce bad things.

If God simply allowed us completely to rebel and exert our free will, we probably would have destroyed ourselves already -and if not, the state would be far more miserable than without his judgments -especially the end state.

God set before man life and death, blessing and cursing -but even the curses will be turned back around to blessing -and death again to life.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

For a created being to be truly individual and creative, God necessarily had to put power in their hands. God is blameless -but he is also ultimately responsible.

It was no surprise that beings could reject his instruction -but they did not have to.

Two thirds of the angels did not turn against God and have remained obedient to that which does not destroy and cause misery.

I am not responding to the second post simply because it would be redundant.

God cannot, I repeat, cannot be all powerful and blameless for what happens in his creations. Either he set things up to happen the way they did or he wasn't all powerful. If there is some kind of end game for the christian god concept then thats fine. But you cannot give him a blameless slate.

 

[Etritonakin]

Perhaps if you could clearly define the charge of which you speak?

He is blameless in that he did nothing wrong. He is responsible for giving power over to new creatures who would necessarily go through a learning process, and for guiding that learning process toward an end state which makes that process negligible. He is responsible for the innocent being affected by the choices of accountable wrongdoers, etc. -but is not a wrongdoer.

He is responsible for the potential that some could chose to do wrong -not guilty of the choices of others, who very much could have chosen otherwise.

Are you saying that there is something inherently evil in creating beings with choice and creativity?

Still -God is equal. Regardless of who is responsible or guilty, there is nothing which has gone wrong in the learning process which will not be made right -and more right than it was wrong.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

But nothing happens that is not the will of god yes? What would have happened if god set up Jesus to die for our sins and then on the cross he began cursing the names of everyone and their grandmother and spit in the face of god?

Remember to balance the Scales of Justice a sinless person was needed as Adam was sinless to begin with. Any of God's ' perfect ' [ sinless ] creation could have paid the ransom price for sin. God sent his only-begotten Son [ meaning God sent us His very best ] and remember Jesus agreed as Jesus was fond of us - Proverbs 8 vs 22-31

Also, Satan can't make a person do what he does Not want to do.
Jesus did Not want to fail us.
Satan challenged at Job 2 vs 4,5 that to touch our ' flesh ' [loose physical health ] and we would turn on God. Jesus knew that challenge also applied to him, and Jesus was prepared to meet that challenge.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That is great and all but the problem is if we make the wrong choice (even if it isn't our fault) god will punish the crap out of us. If god felt we could just rebel and thats fine then its all great and no one has a problem. But we have a god here (in this concept anyway) that gives us free will and then punishes us when we use it.

First of all, can you show any Scripture that says ' wrong choice even if not our fault'

According to Scripture the total price tag that sin pays is : death - Romans 6 v 23
' Death' stamps the price tag of sin as PAID IN FULL.
Please remember there was ' No postmortem punishment ' for Adam
Those who commit the unforgivable sin - Matthew 12 v 32 - are destroyed forever.
Even Satan will be destroyed by Jesus according to Hebrews 2 v 14 B.
Willfully wicked ones are destroyed forever according to Psalm 92 v 7
So, except for those committing the unforgivable sin - Hebrew 6 vs 4-6, the majority or mankind will have the opportunity to gain everlasting life either in heaven for some, or life forever on earth for the majority because Jesus' ransom covers: Many.
-Matthew 20 v 28
Romans 6 v 7 says the one who has died is freed or acquitted from sin.
Acquitted does Not mean punishment.
Just as a governor can pardon a person so the crime charges No longer stick, Jesus, as our just and fair Judge, pardons a person so the sin charges No longer stick.

By the time Jesus was on earth there was already a mixing or fusing of Scripture with religious myths just being taught as Scripture such as the false-religious teaching that there is suffering after death. In Scripture there is No suffering in death.

- John 11 vs 11-14; Ecclesiastes 9 v 5; Psalms 6 v 5; 13 v 3; 115 v 17; 146 v 4; Daniel 12 vs 2,13

 

[Monk Of Reason]

If I was following scripture then I wouldn't be debating you would I?

 

[gnostic]

Thanks for mentioning that, but Bible Student is not my authority. The scriptures say what they say in reference to Lucifier/satan and that is the only perspective I base my view upon. Isaiah 14 along with other passages throughout the scriptures leave no doubt that Lucifer is a fallen angel, now called satan.

Except that earlier surviving texts of Isaiah, like the Greek Septuagint or the Hebrew Dead Sea Scrolls don't use the name "Lucifer".

The name - "Lucifer" - doesn't appear till the 4th century CE, when St Jerome was translating Hebrew Scriptures into Latin - the vulgate bible.

Applying lucifer to satan, when "lucifer" was never really originally used in Isaiah 14, is interpolation and not to mention, absolutely absurd.

Lastly, the whole of Isaiah 14, was supposed to be a prophecy to the king of Babylonia (Isaiah 14:3-4), and the morning star (or "son of morning") and other stars, are just symbols for the Babylonian king and his empire, would eventually fall. And 14:16 does indicate that person is a man, not a fallen angel:

Those who see you will stare at you,
and ponder over you:
“Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
who shook kingdoms,

Don't just read one verse, read the whole damn chapter. The context for the son of morning being a man is all there, in Isaiah 14, not that of satan or devil.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

First of all, can you show any Scripture that says ' wrong choice even if not our fault'

According to Scripture the total price tag that sin pays is : death - Romans 6 v 23
' Death' stamps the price tag of sin as PAID IN FULL.
Please remember there was ' No postmortem punishment ' for Adam
Those who commit the unforgivable sin - Matthew 12 v 32 - are destroyed forever.
Even Satan will be destroyed by Jesus according to Hebrews 2 v 14 B.
Willfully wicked ones are destroyed forever according to Psalm 92 v 7
So, except for those committing the unforgivable sin - Hebrew 6 vs 4-6, the majority or mankind will have the opportunity to gain everlasting life either in heaven for some, or life forever on earth for the majority because Jesus' ransom covers: Many.
-Matthew 20 v 28
Romans 6 v 7 says the one who has died is freed or acquitted from sin.
Acquitted does Not mean punishment.
Just as a governor can pardon a person so the crime charges No longer stick, Jesus, as our just and fair Judge, pardons a person so the sin charges No longer stick.

By the time Jesus was on earth there was already a mixing or fusing of Scripture with religious myths just being taught as Scripture such as the false-religious teaching that there is suffering after death. In Scripture there is No suffering in death.

- John 11 vs 11-14; Ecclesiastes 9 v 5; Psalms 6 v 5; 13 v 3; 115 v 17; 146 v 4; Daniel 12 vs 2,13

If a man looks upon a woman with lust, he has committed adultery with her in his heart. This one pretty much puts men in a no-fault predicament. Especially teenaged boys whose bodies are pumped full of testosterone. Though shalt not covet thy neighbors goods, which is pretty much a flaw in human programming that at some point in time we are all going to do it. And of course there are a number of genetic, mental, and motor disorders that will have people breaking Biblical law, though through no fault of their own. Plus, we inherited our sinful nature from Adam and Eve, which pretty much puts us all at a by default position of "not our fault." To punish us by giving us a sinful nature contradicts the son not paying for the sins of the father (Ezekiel 18:20/Duet. 24:16), although we all apparently do, by default, since the punishments of sin (death and other sufferings) were passed from parent to child.