Who here is enlightened?

[ratikala]

namaste straw dog ji

Everyone is enlightened in some ways and unenlightened in other ways.

jai jai ! untill the final day when all the fruits of previous impure actions have been purified and the pure imprints of former lives bear fruit and finaly click in to place .

It has to do with transcendence over an outdated status-quo.

trancendance of the conventional , the comonly held veiw and order , which becomes outdated as a being develops a higher level of understanding ,

One key is realizing the difference between that which is outdated and the convention that is still useful.

a constantly changing veiw as a being refines its understanding ,untill eventualy all convention becomes out dated as that being trancends convention and atains a realisation of ultimate reality .

To complicate things, some useful conventions may lead themselves to more enlightened ends. On a personal level, this means discerning between that which can be changed and that which cannot. How else would some historical figures, such as the Buddha, been incited to seek a "truer" reality to begin with?

such which you refer to as usefull conventions serve as the rungs of the ladder , which facilitate trancendance , thus never loosing their validity , ....that which can be changed are the levels of atainment or non atainment .
"How else would some historical figures, such as the Buddha, been incited to seek a "truer" reality to begin with? " ....... by steping up in increments , rung by rung , ataining a clearer veiw with each step .

I don't know of a final Enlightenment,

final enlightenment is when the ladder it self is trancended , when it ceases to be of use as the being has fully trancended , has gone through all levels and atained the destination .

however. Just as I don't know of an absolute beginning,

no absolute begining !

I also don't know of a definitive end.

no absolute end ! ......only an end of craving , end of ignorance , .... end of darkness .

The process of enlightenment must be eternal it seems. Perhaps the direct personal realization of this eternal process may be considered final, but it would still involve the acceptance of constant change and receptivity to Truth. Having said that, it must also go beyond words and concepts, which are inherently relative.

prabhu ji , you have it !:namaste

It also appears that enlightenment is impossible for individuals to seek separately from society. As social animals, we must seek total "truth" together. I believe this lack of realization may be detrimental to social progress as a whole and might even explain the real reason why Bodhisattvas are still sticking around.

bodhisattvas prehaps could be explained as being those who who as students realise the true value of education , who upon graduating and ataining the prospect of their own freedom decide to dedicate their own lives to the education of others , who in turn return to the classroom excepting the responcibility to teach others .

so your assertion that we must seek truth together as a society , is a truely enlightened statement , however such is the nature of humanity that this vision will not be understood by all , so the enlightened thinkers forge a way ahead in surch of ultimate reality , as did lord buddha , and ataining that complete and perfect understanding set about teaching upon his realisation .

Again, not that there is a final Enlightenment that I may pin-point,

not yet but it will apear

but rather there is a process of total transcendence

the " process " being levels or stages taken one at a time , each giving clearer insight in to the process and the impetous to proceed to the next step , untill eventualy no steps remain , .... and there is full and total ireversable enlightenment .

 

[Straw Dog]

jai jai ! untill the final day when all the fruits of previous impure actions have been purified and the pure imprints of former lives bear fruit and finaly click in to place .

I suspect that a perfectly pure being may consciously seek imperfection as it would feel incomplete without it.

trancendance of the conventional , the comonly held veiw and order , which becomes outdated as a being develops a higher level of understanding ,
a constantly changing veiw as a being refines its understanding ,untill eventualy all convention becomes out dated as that being trancends convention and atains a realisation of ultimate reality .
such which you refer to as usefull conventions serve as the rungs of the ladder , which facilitate trancendance , thus never loosing their validity , ....that which can be changed are the levels of atainment or non atainment .
"How else would some historical figures, such as the Buddha, been incited to seek a "truer" reality to begin with? " ....... by steping up in increments , rung by rung , ataining a clearer veiw with each step .

Interesting insight. Perhaps there's always a clearer understanding.

final enlightenment is when the ladder it self is trancended , when it ceases to be of use as the being has fully trancended , has gone through all levels and atained the destination .

Yet, whom would have the arrogance to claim said absolutism?

no absolute begining !

no absolute end ! ......only an end of craving , end of ignorance , .... end of darkness

prabhu ji , you have it !:namaste

The only thing driving me is that I do not have IT.

bodhisattvas prehaps could be explained as being those who who as students realise the true value of education , who upon graduating and ataining the prospect of their own freedom decide to dedicate their own lives to the education of others , who in turn return to the classroom excepting the responcibility to teach others .

Same thing.

so your assertion that we must seek truth together as a society , is a truely enlightened statement , however such is the nature of humanity that this vision will not be understood by all , so the enlightened thinkers forge a way ahead in surch of ultimate reality , as did lord buddha , and ataining that complete and perfect understanding set about teaching upon his realisation .

So the Buddha was incomplete until he was able to convey his realization to others? Interesting. Reality is irrelevant in isolation.

the " process " being levels or stages taken one at a time , each giving clearer insight in to the process and the impetous to proceed to the next step , untill eventualy no steps remain , .... and there is full and total ireversable enlightenment .

Hmm... When total enlightenment is achieved, then what more can be said? How does one know that they are enlightened?

 

[Prophet]

(Serious question.)

Use whatever word is applicable in your worldview, be it enlightenment, moksha, nibbana, one with the universe, etc. I'll use 'enlightenment' for the rest of this post but mentally substitute in your own word as you read it.

Does anyone on this forum claim to be enlightened? If so, please post here so we can talk. I'd like to see who here claims to have reached enlightenment.

The reason I ask is, many people talk about what enlightenment is, how to get there, what it's like, that it is a true concept, etc.

So if you consider yourself enlightened, I invite you to post here. Perhaps you could start by explaining what enlightenment is to you, how you achieved it, how you know you achieved it, and what it is like.

What is enlightenment? It is true sight. It is a complete, dispassionate understanding of everything you've ever known or experienced. It is the complete reorganization of your mind back to it's original state before you ever fell into the trap of selfishness causing anxiety to blind you into more selfishness. It is much more than this, but I will leave some questions and surprises.

How did I achieve enlightenment? Well, before one of our eastern religious adherents starts misusing his own enlightened scriptures to insist to me that "there is no 'I' that achieves enlightenment", I hope you see that their claim of enlightenment never involves a rational understanding of anything, but rather a surrender to the interpretations of their religious elders like any other fundamentalist religion. When the understanding of truth is lost in a religion, since they cannot reason to the truth, they must manufacture truth via consensus. Herein lies the reason religious establishments have historically murdered enlightened prophets like Jesus: a bearer of truth is a clear threat to their manufactured and agreed upon truth.

I would insist that the onset of enlightenment is infinitely more meaningful than they may ever know in this lifetime. I experienced the onset of enlightenment a little more than two years ago. I did something for a girl that I thought was love, but for some reason I felt a tinge of guilt and I didn't let it go. I asked myself the hard question and then and there realized that this and everything else I thought I was doing for love, I was doing for what I wanted in return. I saw everything different from this day on.

How do I know I achieved enlightenment? Many reasons I could talk at length about, but here's one good reason you may care about. I have no questions for God because His Mind works in unison with my own. If you have any questions for God, I will do my best to give a worthy answer.

What is enlightenment like? I invite you to find out for yourself.

 

[Bhairava]

^ "a bearer of truth is a clear threat to their manufactured and agreed upon truth."

Sophists gonna sophist.

 

[Bhairava]

Could Neo just walk around in the Matrix convincing people that reality isn't what they think?

Should he?

Best post in thread. Spoken like a true jnani.

 

[methylatedghosts]

How do I know I achieved enlightenment? Many reasons I could talk at length about, but here's one good reason you may care about. I have no questions for God because His Mind works in unison with my own. If you have any questions for God, I will do my best to give a worthy answer.

What is enlightenment like? I invite you to find out for yourself.

This bit, in particular the bold emphasis does less to convince me of your "enlightenment" than any of your other statements.

I am under the impression you may be a little premature

 

[YmirGF]

I am under the impression you may be a little premature

Premature elucidation? :drool:

 

[ratikala]

good evening prabhu ji ,

I suspect that a perfectly pure being may consciously seek imperfection as it would feel incomplete without it.

in respects a perfectly pure being seeks nothing ,
no need to seek it knows , and that knowing is completeness .

that being is satcitananda : eternaly blissfull and full of knowledge .

imperfection is part of the process of perfection , but ultimately not part of the perfection it self .

Quote:
Originally Posted by ratikala
trancendance of the conventional , the comonly held veiw and order , which becomes outdated as a being develops a higher level of understanding ,
a constantly changing veiw as a being refines its understanding ,untill eventualy all convention becomes out dated as that being trancends convention and atains a realisation of ultimate reality .
such which you refer to as usefull conventions serve as the rungs of the ladder , which facilitate trancendance , thus never loosing their validity , ....that which can be changed are the levels of atainment or non atainment .
"How else would some historical figures, such as the Buddha, been incited to seek a "truer" reality to begin with? " ....... by steping up in increments , rung by rung , ataining a clearer veiw with each step .

Interesting insight. Perhaps there's always a clearer understanding.

as one travels through the stages of the path , yes , it is becoming constantly clearer , untill one has reached the conclusion of the path , arived at its destination in which case one trancends the path it self , in which case all is perfect clarity . a state where clarity is total no clearer understanding is possible .

Originally Posted by ratikala
final enlightenment is when the ladder it self is trancended , when it ceases to be of use as the being has fully trancended , has gone through all levels and atained the destination .

Yet, whom would have the arrogance to claim said absolutism?

one wouldnt need to claim it , simply be it .

it is simply another state of being .

The only thing driving me is that I do not have IT.

but you have some of it , .......at least the point that I refered to :namaste

So the Buddha was incomplete until he was able to convey his realization to others? Interesting. Reality is irrelevant in isolation.

he was complete from the point of realisation , but as the reason for his initial search was to find the cause of suffering not for his own benifit but for the benifit of those traped in samsaric existance , it was only natural that he would then impart the wisdom gained through his enlightenment .

Hmm... When total enlightenment is achieved, then what more can be said? How does one know that they are enlightened?

,

"how does one know ? " ..........
they realise that they are no longer in darkness

"what more can be said ? " .......jai ho , ......if one experiences total bliss , one might become eternaly absorbed , .......but on the other hand one might wish to keep that dharma wheel turning :namaste

 

[Madhuri]

I suspect that a perfectly pure being may consciously seek imperfection as it would feel incomplete without it.

How does that make sense?

Part of the definition of a pure being in Vedic philosophies is that the individual is complete. They have come to that point of realisation where they understand their real nature and the nature of the divine.
Part of this philosophy is the idea that the reason the individual in the material world seeks enjoyments and drama is due to incompleteness. Realisation, or Enlightenment, is the reaching of perfect understanding. That state fills the void. It is the ultimate sense of completeness.

 

[YmirGF]

How does that make sense?

Part of the definition of a pure being in Vedic philosophies is that the individual is complete. They have come to that point of realisation where they understand their real nature and the nature of the divine.
Part of this philosophy is the idea that the reason the individual in the material world seeks enjoyments and drama is due to incompleteness. Realisation, or Enlightenment, is the reaching of perfect understanding. That state fills the void. It is the ultimate sense of completeness.

In my humble opinion, wholeness is perhaps a better word to describe the sensation, as nothing is ever truly complete beyond change.

 

[methylatedghosts]

Premature elucidation? :drool:

I'm not allowed to give you any more frubals...

 

[Willamena]

I'm not allowed to give you any more frubals...

I am!

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I have no questions for God because His Mind works in unison with my own. If you have any questions for God, I will do my best to give a worthy answer.

What is enlightenment like? I invite you to find out for yourself.

When is Armageddon going to occur and your Son Jesus Christ return?

 

[Willamena]

When is Armageddon going to occur and your Son Jesus Christ return?

Isn't that every moment of everyday?

Or maybe that's just me.

 

[Prophet]

This bit, in particular the bold emphasis does less to convince me of your "enlightenment" than any of your other statements.

I am under the impression you may be a little premature

Disagreement is the first step of a rational debate. The next step would be to submit your conflicting idea and demonstrate why your conflicting idea is truer than mine.

You don't bother with any of that. Yours is a very interesting way to defend your beliefs against the claims of others. You never have to submit anything to anyone this way. You never even have to tell anyone what you believe. All you have to do is compare the beliefs of others to yours, see where they disagree, point out that someone else is wrong by virtue of their having different beliefs than you, and then talk down to them to cast an illusion of confidence. Is that about right?

 

[Prophet]

When is Armageddon going to occur and your Son Jesus Christ return?

Do you really want to go again? Because, I would be perfectly happy to publicly demonstrate that you're a fundamentalist hypocrite just like last time you tried to trade words with me.

 

[YmirGF]

Do you really want to go again? Because, I would be perfectly happy to publicly demonstrate that you're a fundamentalist hypocrite just like last time you tried to trade words with me.

Spoken like a truly enlightened being.

Does anyone have an knife to slice the irony?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I have no questions for God because His Mind works in unison with my own. If you have any questions for God, I will do my best to give a worthy answer.

What is enlightenment like? I invite you to find out for yourself.

When is Armageddon going to occur and your Son Jesus Christ return?

Do you really want to go again? Because, I would be perfectly happy to publicly demonstrate that you're a fundamentalist hypocrite just like last time you tried to trade words with me.

Why are you changing the subject with an ad hominem attack, it's not about me. Unless an ad hominem is the way you are showing us you are enlightened?

You made the claim that you would answer questions to God to show you are enlightened so please follow through on your offer and answer my question.

If you are not able to answer for any reason, we will leave it at that, but please don't try and change the subject as a way of avoiding the responsibility to deliver on showing us what enlightenment is.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Isn't that every moment of everyday?

Or maybe that's just me.

No, Armageddon is yet to occur according to my understanding, though you may want to get a second opinion from God,..Prophet is waiting for questions like that to show us what enlightenment is.

 

[apophenia]

How did I achieve enlightenment? Well, before one of our eastern religious adherents starts misusing his own enlightened scriptures to insist to me that "there is no 'I' that achieves enlightenment", I hope you see that their claim of enlightenment never involves a rational understanding of anything, but rather a surrender to the interpretations of their religious elders like any other fundamentalist religion. When the understanding of truth is lost in a religion, since they cannot reason to the truth, they must manufacture truth via consensus. Herein lies the reason religious establishments have historically murdered enlightened prophets like Jesus: a bearer of truth is a clear threat to their manufactured and agreed upon truth.

I have no questions for god, but here's one for you...

In the quoted paragraph you open by criticising the " eastern religious adherents ", then suggest that they "surrender to the interpretations of their religious elders like any other fundamentalist religion", and then " religious establishments have historically murdered enlightened prophets like Jesus" because "a bearer of truth is a clear threat to their manufactured and agreed upon truth".

Ummm ... I can't think of any examples of the "religious establishments" of these " eastern religious adherents " ( hindus and buddhists presumably) murdering "enlightened prophets like Jesus".

Perhaps you can give us a few examples.