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Who here is enlightened?

methylatedghosts

Can't brain. Has dumb.
Disagreement is the first step of a rational debate. The next step would be to submit your conflicting idea and demonstrate why your conflicting idea is truer than mine.

You don't bother with any of that. Yours is a very interesting way to defend your beliefs against the claims of others. You never have to submit anything to anyone this way. You never even have to tell anyone what you believe. All you have to do is compare the beliefs of others to yours, see where they disagree, point out that someone else is wrong by virtue of their having different beliefs than you, and then talk down to them to cast an illusion of confidence. Is that about right?

I simply don't feel like I have to defend anything. All I am saying is that nothing you've said has convinced me of your enlightenment. You seem to state that you know 1) what enlightenment is, and 2) that you are enlightened. You have not succeeded in convincing me, and the part I pointed out is the most unconvincing part of all. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, because the one thing I am convinced of is your belief that you are right, and your belief that you are enlightened ;) Perhaps I'm just not as easily impressed as you'd like me to be.
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
I simply don't feel like I have to defend anything. All I am saying is that nothing you've said has convinced me of your enlightenment. You seem to state that you know 1) what enlightenment is, and 2) that you are enlightened. You have not succeeded in convincing me, and the part I pointed out is the most unconvincing part of all. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, because the one thing I am convinced of is your belief that you are right, and your belief that you are enlightened ;) Perhaps I'm just not as easily impressed as you'd like me to be.

Misunderstanding corrected. I was responding to the original poster. Her question specifically addressed how I am certain of my enlightenment. I did not understand her question as a request for proof as you seem to have. I have zero interest in providing a proof but I will be happy to compete with any opposing viewpoints in rational debate.
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Misunderstanding corrected. I was responding to the original poster. Her question specifically addressed how I am certain of my enlightenment. I did not understand her question as a request for proof as you seem to have. I have zero interest in providing a proof but I will be happy to compete with any opposing viewpoints in rational debate.

Sorry if you've already answered this, but are you a Buddhist?
 

methylatedghosts

Can't brain. Has dumb.
Misunderstanding corrected. I was responding to the original poster. Her question specifically addressed how I am certain of my enlightenment. I did not understand her question as a request for proof as you seem to have. I have zero interest in providing a proof but I will be happy to compete with any opposing viewpoints in rational debate.

Who would I - an admitted "unenlightened being" - be, to question a self-professed "enlightened one"
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
Who would I - an admitted "unenlightened being" - be, to question a self-professed "enlightened one"

It's too bad you see it that way because the way I think, questioning and prodding and proving every other thing false is the only way you'll ever reach it. Everyone thinks they have good answers for how to live, but they put down their questions much too easily, accepting lesser answers which they can't prove. They make their homes in the physical world. They accept whatever evil they are taught is necessary.

These unquestioning people never get to see how life is connected by God. These people see only from their myopic points of view. These people see only the outcomes of events and never their causes. It is only from this blindness that they can excuse their selfishness. If they knew they Truth, that all beings are connected in Oneness through God, they would know to do good rather than evil.

Many of them don't even know what evil is. They observe guilt after harming someone, so they assume evil is defined as that which harms others. They have no idea as they commit disgusting acts that the only harm requirement of evil is upon it's performer. Performing evil divides your mind, causing parts of the mind (and the brain according to scans of serial killers) to go dormant.

This dormant part of the mind is known to psychology as the subconscious. In order to bury this part of themselves, beings create the false self, or ego, as it's known in the sciences. This altered version of you....

Hard break. That's enough.
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
I will be happy to compete with any opposing viewpoints in rational debate.

Regarding your first post in this thread (#363), I responded with

In the quoted paragraph you open by criticising the " eastern religious adherents ", then suggest that they "surrender to the interpretations of their religious elders like any other fundamentalist religion", and then " religious establishments have historically murdered enlightened prophets like Jesus" because "a bearer of truth is a clear threat to their manufactured and agreed upon truth".

Ummm ... I can't think of any examples of the "religious establishments" of these " eastern religious adherents " ( hindus and buddhists presumably) murdering "enlightened prophets like Jesus".

Perhaps you can give us a few examples.
Apparently you missed my reply, or perhaps you have not yet arrived at a suitable answer, but I would like to hear your response.

Can you please provide examples of the "religious establishments" of these " eastern religious adherents " ( hindus and buddhists presumably) murdering "enlightened prophets like Jesus" ?

This was clearly the import of your post, I am not misrepresenting you.

So, perhaps this is proof that an enlightened being, whose mind is one with god, can make such fundamental errors ?

Perhaps you will argue that this is in fact the case. I am not presuming.

I can't think of an example of the 'religious establishments' of eastern religions "murdering enlightened prophets like Jesus" as you suggested.

This is quite relevant to your position, because if you can't provide such examples, then it is incumbent on you to explain why an enlightened being would make such a startling claim with no historical justification. It would then indicate not only a propensity for fundamental error, but also an irrational aversion to the adherents of eastern teachings. Are these characteristics of what you would call an enlightened being ?
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
This dormant part of the mind is known to psychology as the subconscious. In order to bury this part of themselves, beings create the false self, or ego, as it's known in the sciences. This altered version of you....

Hard break. That's enough.

you're the one who brought it up, :p Why not give everyone more evidence of enlightenment?
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
When is Armageddon going to occur and your Son Jesus Christ return?

Why are you changing the subject with an ad hominem attack, it's not about me. Unless an ad hominem is the way you are showing us you are enlightened?

You made the claim that you would answer questions to God to show you are enlightened so please follow through on your offer and answer my question.

If you are not able to answer for any reason, we will leave it at that, but please don't try and change the subject as a way of avoiding the responsibility to deliver on showing us what enlightenment is.

I told you during our last interaction that, barring a major change in yourself, I would have no further interactions with you. I am very familiar with your type of person and you in particular. Every argument you construct is based upon feigned understanding. Debating a hypocrite is, to say it nicely, a waste of time.

So you've asked me, "When is Armageddon going to occur and your Son Jesus Christ return?", and when I resisted answering under my previous terms stated nearly a year ago (http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/comparative-religion/129559-thinkers-vs-meditators-33.html#post2862748) you accused me of ad hominem.

What comes up right away is that your question is clearly loaded with your prejudiced stereotype of what Christians believe. What comes up second is your implication of my massive ego in referring to Jesus in jest as my Son. And what comes up now is that you accuse me of ad hominem. So you attempt to make fun of me, implying that I must believe stupid things, implying that I must be a massive egotistical jerk, and cry foul when I return fire? Do you have any idea of how this makes you a hypocrite? Continue this debate with me and I'll make it clear as day for everyone else at the very least.
 
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ratikala

Istha gosthi
In my humble opinion, wholeness is perhaps a better word to describe the sensation,
wholeness or completeness , what difference , one that is whole is complete !
as nothing is ever truly complete beyond change.

nothing on the material level but we are dicussing enlightenment , which trancends all conventional levels and atains the ultimate realisation .

buddhi ;the inteligence or realisation atained by the buddha is un changing , is complete , is whole , it is satcitananda .(eternaly blissfull and full of knowledge)
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
you're the one who brought it up, :p Why not give everyone more evidence of enlightenment?

I don't like proving myself. I found myself doing exactly that while writing that. But the writing wasn't awful and I didn't want to throw away perfectly words that might be perfectly good for someone out there just because my motives were off.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I don't like proving myself. I found myself doing exactly that while writing that. But the writing wasn't awful and I didn't want to throw away perfectly words that might be perfectly good for someone out there just because my motives were off.

Fair enough.
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
I don't like proving myself.

Hmmm.

Is there a reason why you are not providing a simple answer to my simple question ?
You are answering the other questions put to you.

It is not complicated. I have not attacked you or been unreasonable.

I am simply wondering - what is your justification for suggesting that the 'religious establishment' representing eastern religions murders prophets like Jesus ?

Nothing ambiguous or complicated about it. That is what your first post in this thread suggested.

If you have no examples, you could humbly admit that you don't, and then we could discuss what prompted you to say such a thing.
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
Part of the definition of a pure being in Vedic philosophies is that the individual is complete. They have come to that point of realisation where they understand their real nature and the nature of the divine.
jai jai :namaste

Part of this philosophy is the idea that the reason the individual in the material world seeks enjoyments and drama is due to incompleteness. Realisation, or Enlightenment, is the reaching of perfect understanding. That state fills the void. It is the ultimate sense of completeness.

one being in full knowledge , lacking nothing , being complete or whole which ever way we choose to describe it,, has atained an understanding of ultimate reality ..
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
You lost your damned mind last time we debated, causing me to realize I need to be more selective about who I debate. If you insist, you can push for the hypocrite treatment, too, like ben_d. It's already written in my mind.

That is as outrageous as suggesting that the "religious establishment of adherents of eastern religion ...murder prophets like Jesus". A strange kind of aversion and prejudice indeed. It is in fact completely irrational vilification of buddhists and hindus, and effectively as unpleasant as anti-semitism.

Suffice it to say, your claims were not only completely false, and very slanderous and insulting of a huge segment of the world's population, with no historical justification whatsoever, but your only response to me when I ask you to give some support to your claim is that I lost my "damned" mind. And no supporting evidence for that either.

You have revealed your nature quite clearly.
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
That is as outrageous as suggesting that the "religious establishment of adherents of eastern religion ...murder prophets like Jesus". A strange kind of aversion and prejudice indeed. It is in fact completely irrational vilification of buddhists and hindus, and effectively as unpleasant as anti-semitism.

Suffice it to say, your claims were not only completely false, and very slanderous and insulting of a huge segment of the world's population, with no historical justification whatsoever, but your only response to me when I ask you to give some support to your claim is that I lost my "damned" mind. And no supporting evidence for that either.

You have revealed your nature quite clearly.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, "If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets." So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

-Jesus Christ from Matthew 23:29-35

Does Jesus Christ "reveal his nature" here as well?

In my thread in "The Interview Place", you were beyond belief. You would try to debate me, watch me crush every point you make, and then convert your operation to giving me unsolicited advice, talking down to me as if I'm the subject of an A&E Intervention. And then repeat. I'm onto your rope-a-dope game, show me debate, get owned, return fire with Dr. Phil.
 
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Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
Outside of context it appears that Jesus is leveling a catch 22 at the pharisees. He damns them for honoring prophets that their fathers killed and damns them for their father's killing the prophets in the first place.

Inside context its even worse as the people he is talking about have left. He's leveling accusations and damnation at people that aren't even there to defend themselves. Further, he (again in context) is literally attempting to replace the pharisees' importance with his own saying, "Do not be called teacher for you have one teacher, the Christ". It's stated in lots of different ways depending on which translation you favor, but the basic message is. "You should be listening to me and no one else."

Yes, this reveals quite a bit about the nature of Jesus. Additionally, it sheds further light on your attempted emulation of him.
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
dear prophet ,

*mod delete*.

surely an enlightened being has no need to debate , there is no arguement to be won
only subtle and gentle reasoning need be used to bring another to the point of realisation ?

I will admit that I am not as familiar with eastern religion as western, but still, I'm certain that wherever there are fundamentalists in charge, they must have a way of dealing with those who spread disagreement (or heresy).

sadly the fundamentalists are the unrealised who would like to think that they are in charge , unfortunately they exist in all religions , but in truth what does religion have to do with enlightenment ?
 
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YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
wholeness or completeness , what difference , one that is whole is complete !
In one sense of the word, obviously, there is no real difference. I'm more incline to go with "whole" as it implies the sum of the aggregates, as it were, and is not specifically saying the thing in question is complete. It is merely the sum of the parts.

Personally, I take great exception to the notion of so-called "completeness". In a very limited sense, yes, one does have a sensation of "coming full circle" or "reaching the summit" and completing that stage of the journey into the dawn of expanded consciousness, but more importantly, at that stage one also realized that very little is actually completed. If anything, it's where the fun, adventure and intrigue really begins. In some terms, so-called "enlightenment" is really just the first baby step on yet another road, without the aid of a map, exploring a territory that is vastly larger than what one has already explored. I hope that makes sense.

nothing on the material level but we are dicussing enlightenment , which trancends all conventional levels and atains the ultimate realisation.
Well, I can see you are in for a few surprises. Don't worry though, as it's all good. When I say nothing is complete, I am meaning, precisely, nothing is complete, regardless of the realm that nothing finds itself in. Is that clear? You may limit this to the so-called "material" world if it helps you to sleep at night, but I meant no such limitation. Change never stops, get used to it.

Aside from this, I also reject, somewhat contemptuously, all notions of any "ultimate realization". Again, don't sell yourself short. Realization never ends, and once again, get used to it.

buddhi - the inteligence or realisation atained by the buddha is un changing , is complete , is whole , it is satcitananda .(eternaly blissfull and full of knowledge)
Well, that is what the books would tell you, yes. However, it isn't really correct. It is a gross distortion, to be truthful. I am quite sure that those who encountered the original purveyors of this myth may well have assumed such beings were indeed All powerful, all blissful and all knowledgeable, but my guess is that they didn't tax those assertions very hard.


Like, c'mon.

Sat = All powerful. Ok, to me that means "godlike" power to do practically anything. Do we see much evidence of this? No, not really. In fact, there is almost nothing in the historical record, outside of fanciful mythologies, that would support this notion - and yet it stands...

Chit - All knowing - Again, we don't have much evidence to backup this claim. One would think that the Eastern world would be light years ahead of the Western world, if this was the case. Given that it is not, one does have to take this as a mere tug to the legs of the unwashed. My guess is that there has been practically zero research, by anyone, to verify this claim - and yet, it stands...

Anana - All blissful - Well, there IS a distinct bliss that accompanies expansions of consciousness, but one soon gets used to it. It simply becomes the new "normal".

To be fair, I think that the purveyors of Sat-Chit-Ananda were happily ensconced in Ananda and were only joking about the All Power and All Knowledge. No doubt their disciples lapped it up... and were likely in on the joke too. In any event, it's hard to take the concept seriously.
 
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Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
dear prophet ,



surely an enlightened being has no need to debate , there is no arguement to be won
only subtle and gentle reasoning need be used to bring another to the point of realisation ?

You're quite correct. Were my goal to convince them of my viewpoints, my approach would be much different.

sadly the fundamentalists are the unrealised who would like to think that they are in charge , unfortunately they exist in all religions , but in truth what does religion have to do with enlightenment ?

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. -Jesus Christ

I am levying the same accusations against modern feigners of knowledge.
 
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