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Who here is enlightened?
- Thread starter Penumbra
- Start date
Guru Ramana died in 1950. You may visit his ashram at tiruvannalmalai to experience for yourself.
Most folks who visit Ramana ashram will be appalled at your example.
But you at least agree that charisma and suggestions work. What is measurable in charisma?But forget it. One who eats the mango only knows the taste.
Last edited:
chinu
chinu
Properly, do you know any ?
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Shhh...go back to sleep...there, there...
apophenia
Well-Known Member
I have serious doubts about Derren Brown.
Could it be 'artificial' reality TV ? Is Derren Brown engaged in the entertainment business, selling us stories about what Derren Brown can understand and demonstrate ? He comes across to me in his shows as being a showman, so the whole series could be staged entirely. In many of the episodes he gives no indication at all of what 'technique' he has used, he just somehow causes people to behave extremely. In other episodes, he presents the bare bones of a 'technique', but it looks like a cheesy hollywood plot about 'The Mentalist'. I'm thinking particularly about the episode where he somehow casually sets up post-hypnotic suggestion which causes various people to attempt a 'spontaneous' armed hold-up in the street. The subliminal suggestion techniques presented appear to me as very unlikely to cause a person to do something so dramatic. If it were as easy as he makes out, there would be numerous cases of 'programmed criminals' happening in the real world, because it's so much safer than getting shot yourself. To be fair, there are some real examples of extreme conditioning in the world - children groomed to become suicide bombers for example - but that kind of brainwash takes a lot longer than the few casual sessions Brown takes his 'subjects' through.
And there are situations other than TV gurus where the effects of charisma are sometimes staged. I once witnessed a mildly famous new age American swami here in Australia, presenting 'ancient vedic teachings' with his own special twists and presentation, and he had a bunch of groupies in tow who were all supermodels, and were his special circle of devotees (all gorgeous 20-somethings from California, all wearing similar flouncy see-through floral-print miniskirts and stilletos like a team of Valley-girl gopis), and they spent a whole lot of time just weeping and making other dramatic displays ostensibly in spontaneous ecstatic states. It was blatant baloney, with the swami using echo chambers on his vedic chants when he was intoning that he was god and we were god etc. Serious kitch. Nevertheless - enough people are having 'some kind of experience' to keep him in business. Unless those paying customers are not having 'some kind of experience' at all, but are just playing along for their own reasons. Which is a topic in itself.
I would be more skeptical of Derren Brown's effects on people if I had not seen a hypnotist in real life cause the same magnitude of abrupt changes in people.
At a hypnotist show, I saw my own friends (who were not 'in' with the hypnotist at all) become hypnotized by him and led to do crazy things.
He could make them:
-Act like a child.
-Become attracted to the same sex.
-Forget everything about their hypnosis.
-Remember everything about their hypnosis.
-Laugh hysterically to the point of falling down into the dirt and being in pain.
-Become furious and screaming at any specific person.
-Believe they're in any specific environment, like a tropical island or rocket ship or any other location.
-Believe they're doing any specific activity, like fishing or hugging a teddy bear.
-Be unable to move or talk.
So all of Darren's stuff to me just looks like an extension of things that I've seen in real life rather than being particularly amazing. But it looks better in the tv show because they don't show the failures as often (only once in a while do they show his hypnosis failing on someone), which makes his techniques look more powerful.
The hypnotist I saw first started by hypnotizing the whole subset of the audience that wanted to participate. For many people like myself, it didn't work at all unfortunately. Then for the subset of people it worked on, he selected the smaller subset of people that it worked best on, brought them on stage, and then that's when he had all sorts of fun with the show making them do whatever he wants. So he smartly selected the people that it worked the best on to show the techniques.
It ended up being like:
-Only 50% of the audience participated to let themselves get hypnotized.
-Only 50% of that subset actually got hypnotized.
-Only 10% of that subset were selected as being the best candidates.
-Only 25% of that subset were highlighted front and center in the show as the perfect candidates.
The effects look awesome on those last two groups but far less impressive when viewed from the total pool of people he attempted to hypnotize.
ratikala
Istha gosthi
dear penumbra ,
excuse me I just like to return to the conversation where we left of , ....
as I had not wished to make such claims .
I felt it more apt to say that many have experienced degrees of enlightenment ,
but , ...." big guns " , .... made me laugh , ..... thinking of the humility of the buddha I thought that in truth these are the , ....."no guns ", ..... those in full knowledge with nothing to prove ! .....
but you are looking for proof from those that have no wish to prove anything , ....
what more can I say ? .....
ok, ... I will try to answer as simply as possible so please bear with me as these are not easy things to articulate in mere words , and your questions are very direct for such a profound subject .
"the true nature of phenomena" ? ... in ways is so simple , onced realised , .....yet as it is 'everything' beyond our normal understanding it takes rather a huge leap of faith to begin to comprehend it .
it is everything that ever was or ever will be , the eternal the timeless and unchanging , but in constant motion .....
it is the complete anthesis of everything we are experiencing here , the not knowing becoming pure knowledge ,
the non perminant becoming eternal ,
the incomprehension , pure clarity ,
the distraction , pure focus , and the unsatisfactoryness of this embodied and conditioned existence transformes into contented bliss .
it is the authentic from which all springs , and the truth which all are bound to realise and the absolute to which all eventualy return .
peace , acceptance , bliss .
human suffering is obviously a nucance but it dosent matter it is temporary ,
I can laugh at it , it cant sepprtate me from equanimity .
I can be angry with someone because it needs to be done ,
yet I am not angry inside .
whether you understand me or not ? it dosent matter ,
If you wish to know , I will try to explain ,
if you dont wish to know , this too dosent matter ,
everything comes in its own time .
therefore I am not the dooer ,
before it has hapened it is allready done .
your understanding , my understanding come in their own time under the right conditions like a flower that opens in the warmth of the sun .
its petals and stamens lay ferled inside formed but still ripening ,
so to are we , formed , but still ripening !
what more can one do but see this ,
marvel at this , accept this , surrender to this ,
is it is beyond explanation
it is supreme , and supremely beautifull .
excuse me I just like to return to the conversation where we left of , ....
as I had not wished to make such claims .
I felt it more apt to say that many have experienced degrees of enlightenment ,
but , ...." big guns " , .... made me laugh , ..... thinking of the humility of the buddha I thought that in truth these are the , ....."no guns ", ..... those in full knowledge with nothing to prove ! .....
but you are looking for proof from those that have no wish to prove anything , ....
what more can I say ? .....
ok, ... I will try to answer as simply as possible so please bear with me as these are not easy things to articulate in mere words , and your questions are very direct for such a profound subject .
"the true nature of phenomena" ? ... in ways is so simple , onced realised , .....yet as it is 'everything' beyond our normal understanding it takes rather a huge leap of faith to begin to comprehend it .
it is everything that ever was or ever will be , the eternal the timeless and unchanging , but in constant motion .....
it is the complete anthesis of everything we are experiencing here , the not knowing becoming pure knowledge ,
the non perminant becoming eternal ,
the incomprehension , pure clarity ,
the distraction , pure focus , and the unsatisfactoryness of this embodied and conditioned existence transformes into contented bliss .
it is the authentic from which all springs , and the truth which all are bound to realise and the absolute to which all eventualy return .
discriminating wisdom .
peace , acceptance , bliss .
human suffering is obviously a nucance but it dosent matter it is temporary ,
I can laugh at it , it cant sepprtate me from equanimity .
I can be angry with someone because it needs to be done ,
yet I am not angry inside .
whether you understand me or not ? it dosent matter ,
If you wish to know , I will try to explain ,
if you dont wish to know , this too dosent matter ,
everything comes in its own time .
therefore I am not the dooer ,
before it has hapened it is allready done .
your understanding , my understanding come in their own time under the right conditions like a flower that opens in the warmth of the sun .
its petals and stamens lay ferled inside formed but still ripening ,
so to are we , formed , but still ripening !
what more can one do but see this ,
marvel at this , accept this , surrender to this ,
is it is beyond explanation
it is supreme , and supremely beautifull .
ratikala
Istha gosthi
now please listen to this and read what I have writen again
[youtube]sYtr4-N0Ifw&start=0[/youtube]
saiful maluk: sain zahoor ahmad 01/12
p.s. there are twelve parts to this , please listen
[youtube]sYtr4-N0Ifw&start=0[/youtube]
saiful maluk: sain zahoor ahmad 01/12
p.s. there are twelve parts to this , please listen
chinu
chinu
Is this sain zahoor who use to sing on kalams by bulle shah ?
ratikala
Istha gosthi
dear chinu bai ,Is this sain zahoor who use to sing on kalams by bulle shah ?
he is wonderfull , I am allways listening to him and trying to find translations so I can understand better , can you translate ?
please tell me you can translate or just expand a little on the meanings, I would be so so happy ??? :namaste
chinu
chinu
My english is not that much good
As sian zahoor mostly use to sing the kalams written by "Hazrat baba bulle shah", So in order to understand his kalams, i think firstly you should learn "PUNJABI"
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
As someone who has hypnotised (for fun, and amateurish at best, but I managed to do it) a few friends and been hypnotised, I have serious doubts about the authenticity about these kind of things.
When I was hypnotised, and when I've hypnotised a few of my friends (four of them I can recall off-hand, probably no others), we have always been conscious and aware of what was happening; we were most definitely not unconscious, sleeping, or miles away in a dream world -- even when I used an imaginary area for them to relax and so on.
(Though, I wasn't very good at being hypnotized because I lack the ability to visualize.
)Things like acting like a child (unless I've misunderstood how they were acting like children), or to genuinely believe they're somewhere or doing an activity at the expense of their own knowledge sounds like it'd be more auto-suggestion. Emotions though, I can believe, since they often go haywire. I've had friends cry with laughter, get annoyed at something they've imagined, and also become scared of something they've imagined.
Imaging they're attracted to the same sex, though, I don't believe it; I think your friend was pulling your leg there. It seems basically the same as the Comedy Hypnosis "You will be a chicken!" more than real hypnosis.
There's also a problem of trust; if you don't trust the individual who is going to hypnotize you, then you're much less likely to be hypnotized. It's why I probably couldn't hypnotize my sister-in-law, since she and I always annoy each other, she'd be suspicious I was going to use it as a prelude to some kind of prank, even if I assured her it wasn't.
Derren Brown is, I think, simply lying and exaggerating his abilities for effects. He is an entertainer, so he uses deception and lies. His "Apocalypse" episode, when he walks up to the main character of the film, for example, and immediately puts him in a trance, is (as far as I am aware) impossible. I know that I'm not an expert and have only done it a few times, and I know that they can do it much better than I can, but it's just not realistic looking.
He also searches for the more easily suggestible individuals to control (and he's honest about this) so as to make his effects look more amazing. He has deceived people in programmes before, as we know. One of his episodes he threw a coin ten times in a row and it landed on the same side each time -- in reality, he spent hours filming until it happened that way. So, I doubt his "Fear and Faith" was entirely legitimate, too - although I do believe that it is possible to induce a feeling of religious experience through psychology, well, as atanu ji said:
I believe that there is a distinction between induced (even self-induced) ones and genuine religious experiences. Of course, I'm biased in that regards though as a religious individual.
Just my $0.02 on this part of the topic..
I believe that there is a distinction between induced (even self-induced) ones and genuine religious experiences. Of course, I'm biased in that regards though as a religious individual.
Just my $0.02 on this part of the topic..
To me the only test of a true guru is increasingly calm mind culminating in fearlessness. That is the magic which followers of sat gurus will attest to.
Comparing such benevolent pure work of a satguru with hypnotism is naive, IMO.
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
I agree, although some may think it is us that are naïve. Still, mango...To me the only test of a true guru is increasingly calm mind culminating in fearlessness. That is the magic which followers of sat gurus will attest to.
Comparing such benevolent pure work of a satguru with hypnotism is naive, IMO.
I agree, although some may think it is us that are naïve. Still, mango...
I tested massively diabetic and the mango passion is somewhat dulled. God is cruel, I say.
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
Don't blame God for the tiger, thank God the tiger doesn't have wings.I tested massively diabetic and the mango passion is somewhat dulled. God is cruel, I say.
Don't blame God for the tiger, thank God the tiger doesn't have wings.
Ha ha. That is why we said "welcome back". :yes:
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Enlightened about what?