Who here is enlightened?

[ratikala]

My english is not that much good

I am sure it is very good enough

As sian zahoor mostly use to sing the kalams written by "Hazrat baba bulle shah", So in order to understand his kalams, i think firstly you should learn "PUNJABI"

learn "PUNJABI"
accha , ....I think that would make my guru very happy

 

[Penumbra]

As someone who has hypnotised (for fun, and amateurish at best, but I managed to do it) a few friends and been hypnotised, I have serious doubts about the authenticity about these kind of things.

When I was hypnotised, and when I've hypnotised a few of my friends (four of them I can recall off-hand, probably no others), we have always been conscious and aware of what was happening; we were most definitely not unconscious, sleeping, or miles away in a dream world -- even when I used an imaginary area for them to relax and so on.

(Though, I wasn't very good at being hypnotized because I lack the ability to visualize. )

Well I certainly think that amateurish attempts at hypnosis will differ from a full-time professional with decades of stage experience.

Things like acting like a child (unless I've misunderstood how they were acting like children), or to genuinely believe they're somewhere or doing an activity at the expense of their own knowledge sounds like it'd be more auto-suggestion. Emotions though, I can believe, since they often go haywire. I've had friends cry with laughter, get annoyed at something they've imagined, and also become scared of something they've imagined.

Imaging they're attracted to the same sex, though, I don't believe it; I think your friend was pulling your leg there. It seems basically the same as the Comedy Hypnosis "You will be a chicken!" more than real hypnosis.

It was multiple friends, not one friend. Some of them had little knowledge of each other, and one of them didn't even want to go.

Two of them were highly embarrassed when described what they did while hypnotized and didn't really want to talk about it afterward. One of them ruined his hat during the time since he took it off and stepped on it. Another one got her clothes filthy from falling down on dirt and kind of rolling around (oblivious at the time to how dirty she was getting until afterward, so then she had to walk around the rest of the day with embarrassing dirt stains all over her sun dress and was pretty ticked off about it).

I actually saw another professional hypnotist at college years later who did similar things. Only one of my friends was involved in that one and she acted in the same way.

There's also a problem of trust; if you don't trust the individual who is going to hypnotize you, then you're much less likely to be hypnotized. It's why I probably couldn't hypnotize my sister-in-law, since she and I always annoy each other, she'd be suspicious I was going to use it as a prelude to some kind of prank, even if I assured her it wasn't.

Derren Brown is, I think, simply lying and exaggerating his abilities for effects. He is an entertainer, so he uses deception and lies. His "Apocalypse" episode, when he walks up to the main character of the film, for example, and immediately puts him in a trance, is (as far as I am aware) impossible. I know that I'm not an expert and have only done it a few times, and I know that they can do it much better than I can, but it's just not realistic looking.

He also searches for the more easily suggestible individuals to control (and he's honest about this) so as to make his effects look more amazing. He has deceived people in programmes before, as we know. One of his episodes he threw a coin ten times in a row and it landed on the same side each time -- in reality, he spent hours filming until it happened that way. So, I doubt his "Fear and Faith" was entirely legitimate, too - although I do believe that it is possible to induce a feeling of religious experience through psychology, well, as atanu ji said:

I believe that there is a distinction between induced (even self-induced) ones and genuine religious experiences. Of course, I'm biased in that regards though as a religious individual.

Just my $0.02 on this part of the topic..

I do think Darren exaggerates things. As I described of the other hypnotist, he selected the best of the best candidates after seeing his effects on people, and used those best candidates for the rest of the show. Darren likely does similar things. When he uses his abilities, it doesn't work on some people.

But after seeing real-life hypnotists affecting people that were not 'in on it', I could see first hand how powerful hypnosis could be on susceptible individuals.

 

[Penumbra]

Enlightened about what?

Nirvana, Moksha, mystical experiences, etc.

Not usually associated with Calvinism.

 

[s2a]

The Age of Enlightenment and the experiences in this thread are largely separate concepts.

Ok, if that is your qualifying perspective… and I thank you for at very least defining in minimalist terms how you wish to see “enlightenment” to be perceived or applied by others within your own narrowed context. That helps quite a bit

The only major link between the two is that westerners sometimes use the word 'enlightenment' to refer to Dharmic, New Age, or mystical concepts about ego transcendence and mystical experiences. I find that it remains a useful word because it doesn't use any specific religion's terminology, such as Moksha or Nibbana.

Well, I’m a “westerner” in the sense that I’m a natural born US citizen (not bragging mind you, it’s “just so”), and fair to say that I never confuse nor conflate “enlightenment” to incorporate mytsicism or religion either directly or indirectly. Point in fact, entirely the opposite. But now that you have chosen to specify your brand of “enlightenment” as something other than/beyond mere intellectual discovery, enhancement/expansion or comprehensible literal/empirical fact, or the measurable distance between mythology/superstition and quantifiable/qualitative evidential evidences…at least it may be fair to say that we both agree that religious terminology has no place or purpose in lending specific (or even amorphous) “enlightenment” towards enhanced understanding of anything tangible or physical?

Because I'm aware that 'enlightenment' is a muddy term that stems from and shares terminology of the Age of Enlightenment and is often used liberally and broadly to refer to Dharmic and mystical concepts, and because I see that members often look for objections in terminology (like if you give a poll with X options you'll generally be asked why there weren't X + 1 options) the OP specifically uses Nibbana, Moksha, or One with the Universe as pointers to the general direction of what kind of experience I'm referring to, and specifically invites members to use their own word.

I read the OP, well enough I think…which was…
“(Serious question.)

Use whatever word is applicable in your worldview, be it enlightenment, moksha, nibbana, one with the universe, etc. I'll use 'enlightenment' for the rest of this post but mentally substitute in your own word as you read it.

Does anyone on this forum claim to be enlightened? If so, please post here so we can talk. I'd like to see who here claims to have reached enlightenment.

The reason I ask is, many people talk about what enlightenment is, how to get there, what it's like, that it is a true concept, etc.

So if you consider yourself enlightened, I invite you to post here. Perhaps you could start by explaining what enlightenment is to you, how you achieved it, how you know you achieved it, and what it is like.”

You may recall my reply noting that I did not appreciate fully your qualifications…saying:
“I may fairly deem myself as "more enlightened" that those that do not, or might otherwise exist within their own self-imposed seclusion and isolation from "enlightening" ideas, concepts, or compelling evidences that may challenge entrenched beliefs, dogma, or faith-based claims...

Select a specified topic, and perhaps we may then debate the contestable merits of any presented premise as an exampled and "enlightened" perspective, beyond promotion of just some ideological meme/testimonial/manifesto....

Fair enough?”

I think “enlightenment” means --in conceptual essence-- to be an escape from the bondage of ignorance and irrational fears; whether willfully accepted or borne within, absent any available or offered opportunistic avenues to apply basic tools and capacities of human reason to fairly evaluate and subsequently understand the distinctions between insistent (and utterly unverifiable) claims, magical thinking, wishes…. and those aspects of existence we can expect to well understand with deductive certitude.

Is it more “enlightened” to perceive a rainbow as a consistently re-crafted “covenant” from an invisible deity that yet another flood that wipes out the entirety of humanity won’t happen again…or better to understand the principles of refracted light as manifested through water vapor simply “creates” such a “magical” wonder? Knowledge that a solar eclipse is something other than some sky monster devouring the sun, but instead a routine and predictable cosmological event?

So rather than referring to an accumulated body of knowledge or a merely intelligent disposition, it more or less refers to some sort of transcendent/mystical experience that many spiritual traditions reference, which may or may not also include knowledge, but is generally not considered merely knowledge.

Just wished to extend my apologies in over lengthy reply. I can offer you no stories or anecdotes of the sort of “enlightenment” that speaks to your more immediate interests.

May I suggest, for uses of application in furthering your own interests in the topic put forward, that you qualify your pursuits as “spiritual enlightenment”, if for no other purpose than to avoid the likes of me and others like myself as striving to “enlighten” others by means of expanding intellect, knowledge, reason, critical thought, and quantifiable realities?

I wish you the best in deep discussions of the true meanings found in belly button lint, prophet’s faces found in burnt toast, or whatever metaphysical “enlightening” manifestations that anyone may care to claim are relevant, real, revelatory…and most especially… “unique”.

 

[Penumbra]

Ok, if that is your qualifying perspective… and I thank you for at very least defining in minimalist terms how you wish to see “enlightenment” to be perceived or applied by others within your own narrowed context. That helps quite a bit

It's not particularly narrow. It covers the beliefs of 2 billion people or so with nirvana, moksha, mysticism, and similar concepts.

Well, I’m a “westerner” in the sense that I’m a natural born US citizen (not bragging mind you, it’s “just so”), and fair to say that I never confuse nor conflate “enlightenment” to incorporate mytsicism or religion either directly or indirectly. Point in fact, entirely the opposite. But now that you have chosen to specify your brand of “enlightenment” as something other than/beyond mere intellectual discovery, enhancement/expansion or comprehensible literal/empirical fact, or the measurable distance between mythology/superstition and quantifiable/qualitative evidential evidences…at least it may be fair to say that we both agree that religious terminology has no place or purpose in lending specific (or even amorphous) “enlightenment” towards enhanced understanding of anything tangible or physical?

I read the OP, well enough I think…which was…
“(Serious question.)

Use whatever word is applicable in your worldview, be it enlightenment, moksha, nibbana, one with the universe, etc. I'll use 'enlightenment' for the rest of this post but mentally substitute in your own word as you read it.

Does anyone on this forum claim to be enlightened? If so, please post here so we can talk. I'd like to see who here claims to have reached enlightenment.

The reason I ask is, many people talk about what enlightenment is, how to get there, what it's like, that it is a true concept, etc.

So if you consider yourself enlightened, I invite you to post here. Perhaps you could start by explaining what enlightenment is to you, how you achieved it, how you know you achieved it, and what it is like.”

You may recall my reply noting that I did not appreciate fully your qualifications…saying:
“I may fairly deem myself as "more enlightened" that those that do not, or might otherwise exist within their own self-imposed seclusion and isolation from "enlightening" ideas, concepts, or compelling evidences that may challenge entrenched beliefs, dogma, or faith-based claims...

Select a specified topic, and perhaps we may then debate the contestable merits of any presented premise as an exampled and "enlightened" perspective, beyond promotion of just some ideological meme/testimonial/manifesto....

Fair enough?”

I think “enlightenment” means --in conceptual essence-- to be an escape from the bondage of ignorance and irrational fears; whether willfully accepted or borne within, absent any available or offered opportunistic avenues to apply basic tools and capacities of human reason to fairly evaluate and subsequently understand the distinctions between insistent (and utterly unverifiable) claims, magical thinking, wishes…. and those aspects of existence we can expect to well understand with deductive certitude.

Is it more “enlightened” to perceive a rainbow as a consistently re-crafted “covenant” from an invisible deity that yet another flood that wipes out the entirety of humanity won’t happen again…or better to understand the principles of refracted light as manifested through water vapor simply “creates” such a “magical” wonder? Knowledge that a solar eclipse is something other than some sky monster devouring the sun, but instead a routine and predictable cosmological event?

Just wished to extend my apologies in over lengthy reply. I can offer you no stories or anecdotes of the sort of “enlightenment” that speaks to your more immediate interests.

May I suggest, for uses of application in furthering your own interests in the topic put forward, that you qualify your pursuits as “spiritual enlightenment”, if for no other purpose than to avoid the likes of me and others like myself as striving to “enlighten” others by means of expanding intellect, knowledge, reason, critical thought, and quantifiable realities?

I wish you the best in deep discussions of the true meanings found in belly button lint, prophet’s faces found in burnt toast, or whatever metaphysical “enlightening” manifestations that anyone may care to claim are relevant, real, revelatory…and most especially… “unique”.

The term enlightenment is often used in these contexts because they often share an idea of seeing the world in a supposedly truer way, or shedding of past ignorance. Much like how scientists in the age of enlightenment in Europe used the term, except with different ideas of specifically what that ignorance is and what the release from that ignorance entails.

In science it's about using critical analysis to pass through ignorance and put aside superstition. In dharmic, mystical, or new age approaches it's about proposing that much of reality is an illusion and that certain methods or experiences can lead to a release of this illusion.

The second one is what I'm interested in for this thread. In other threads I'm generally more interested in science and such.

 

[NIX]

Well I certainly think that amateurish attempts at hypnosis will differ from a full-time professional with decades of stage experience.

It was multiple friends, not one friend. Some of them had little knowledge of each other, and one of them didn't even want to go.

Two of them were highly embarrassed when described what they did while hypnotized and didn't really want to talk about it afterward. One of them ruined his hat during the time since he took it off and stepped on it. Another one got her clothes filthy from falling down on dirt and kind of rolling around (oblivious at the time to how dirty she was getting until afterward, so then she had to walk around the rest of the day with embarrassing dirt stains all over her sun dress and was pretty ticked off about it).

I actually saw another professional hypnotist at college years later who did similar things. Only one of my friends was involved in that one and she acted in the same way.

I do think Darren exaggerates things. As I described of the other hypnotist, he selected the best of the best candidates after seeing his effects on people, and used those best candidates for the rest of the show. Darren likely does similar things. When he uses his abilities, it doesn't work on some people.

But after seeing real-life hypnotists affecting people that were not 'in on it', I could see first hand how powerful hypnosis could be on susceptible individuals.

Is it something that's supposed to "work" on people?
Or is hypnosis a thing that people engage in. Most people do have enough wits about them to consciously choose what they do and don't want to engage in. People who really don't want to participate in hypnosis (even on the subconscious level) won't. People who do, at the very least will open themselves up (to the best of their ability) to engage in the activity. Some people relax and let go with more ease than others- perhaps things like regular meditation or life stress levels, fear of what might happen, sceptical tendencies- play a part. Not everyone succeeds at everything they try the first time, or even the first few times. It doesn't mean though, that they can't.

 

[NIX]

I'm pretty sure it all has the most to do with willingness- and desire- to let go.
And I'm not merely referencing hypnosis.

 

[chinu]

I am sure it is very good enough

Ok, which one do you want to translate ? i'll try

learn "PUNJABI"
accha , ....I think that would make my guru very happy

and it will sound like.. hunting two birds with one arrow

Well.. enjoy this Guy too, he's also something similar to sian zahoor.
[youtube]R8mtaWzoDj8[/youtube]
Kalam-e-Bulleh Shah "Ni Mein Jana Jogi" - YouTube

 

[atanu]

Is it something that's supposed to "work" on people?
Or is hypnosis a thing that people engage in. Most people do have enough wits about them to consciously choose what they do and don't want to engage in. People who really don't want to participate in hypnosis (even on the subconscious level) won't. People who do, at the very least will open themselves up (to the best of their ability) to engage in the activity. Some people relax and let go with more ease than others- perhaps things like regular meditation or life stress levels, fear of what might happen, sceptical tendencies- play a part. Not everyone succeeds at everything they try the first time, or even the first few times. It doesn't mean though, that they can't.

There is a thread in RF about Allan Carr and his technique of painlessly discarding smoking. Allan stumbled upon the technique when a hypnotist could remove his craving without apparently doing anything meaningful. Allan surmised that his mental blocks that giving up the habit was difficult was removed by the hypnotism.

Now some hypnotist may be after money or fame or some such thing. Spiritual gurus may use such techniques but a true guru would be using the techniques to benevolently transmit peace to troubled souls.

What is more important is that most temples that are known to induce tranquility have no physical person doing the acts.

(Also, gurus remind that it is the self that does the tricks. The multiplicity of bodies is an appearance on the self).

 

[Prophet]

Thanks for the invitation.

Does God know things about me that members such as yourself on this forum would not know?

Hi, Penumbra.

I could come at this from a large variety of angles. For simplicity's sake, I'll choose one: omniscience.

I like your question. As I understand it from the angle of omniscience, it asks me, "Does God know everything?" If I had to answer yes or no, I'd say "yes" but I very much doubt that would be at all helpful, as I feel there are some fairly serious misconceptions loaded into that question that must be exposed.

Your question paints God as a being, but our Father is not a being, but rather the ground of being upon which all beings are created. Our anthromorphic tendencies paint God as a person, when He transcends personality. As a whole, He knows everything there is to be known by experiencing life as every sentient being while maintaining unattachment.

However, the same ability to see and understand just what they see is lacking for most individual sentient beings because for them maintaining unattachment is all but impossible. Their presence of mind is crippled by selfish desire. Everything they say or do is motivated by attachment to the past or the future. I'm not talking exclusively about the dregs of society. I'm talking about nearly everyone. They accept insanity as normal and add useless caveats like "as long as it doesn't harm others" and when their selfishness does go over that inevitable edge of harming others, they willfully and predictably refuse to see it. This is blindness. This is poverty in its truest form. These beings have lost their minds.

They have fallen for the physical illusion. They ignorantly believe they are their bodies and pay no attention to their minds. The body should be the slave of the mind, but these beings have allowed their minds to become the slaves of their bodies. They exist only to serve their bodies' wants. In this state of blindness, how could they ever hope to see that we are all Brothers and Sisters to each other and Sons and Daughters to the Father?

Enough of that. You also imply another question. I would word it, "Does enlightenment give you omniscience?" Unfortunately, my experience with enlightenment gives me no psychic transfer of knowledge. I have nothing on you. It does, however, imbue me with a keen insight to my surroundings, especially regarding the motives and true character of my peers.

 

[Breathe]

Well I certainly think that amateurish attempts at hypnosis will differ from a full-time professional with decades of stage experience.

Indeed, there's going to be things I couldn't -- and can't -- do that they can, and I have no qualms about that since I did it for fun; but it still remains that all of them had awareness of the situation, as did I when hypnotized. You're just not able to be hypnotized against your will, nor able to be coerced into doing something you don't want do, and you'll always have memory of it.

Even with decades of experience as a full-time professional, putting someone under so their awareness was gone, if it is possible, would still take a long time to manage than would be possible in a stage performance.

Quick link 1
Quick link 2

I do think Darren exaggerates things. As I described of the other hypnotist, he selected the best of the best candidates after seeing his effects on people, and used those best candidates for the rest of the show. Darren likely does similar things. When he uses his abilities, it doesn't work on some people.

But after seeing real-life hypnotists affecting people that were not 'in on it', I could see first hand how powerful hypnosis could be on susceptible individuals.

Derren is honest that his abilities don't work on everyone and that he hand picks people who are most responsive. However, some of his skills (not really abilities ) as seen on TV are fraudulent. As I mentioned, that part in Apocalypse where he walks up to the "unknowing victim" in Apocalypse and hypnotises into collapsing immediately is pure, unadulterated crap.

 

[Rev Hydrogen]

Enlightenment to me is knowing what and who you are in the
scheme of things.
I think of it as 'the penny dropping'.
Less than 1% of civilized manjind (my guess) have had their penny drop.
Only once we know for sure, what and who we are could we ever hope to consider the world and the creator from any other
angle aside from reason and imagination. (atheists and believers)

The journey of enlightenment must begin with the realization and separation of the true self and the false self by self observation.
This is a precondition.

Enlightenment starts when the ego acknowledges the transpersonal agency (inner being), and decides to play
nice rather than bully it.

Enlightenment will be a journey and precedes a possible transcendence (encounter with the Source).

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

You also imply another question. I would word it, "Does enlightenment give you omniscience?" Unfortunately, my experience with enlightenment gives me no psychic transfer of knowledge. I have nothing on you. It does, however, imbue me with a keen insight to my surroundings, especially regarding the motives and true character of my peers.

Is there any way to test the legitimacy of your insight into others?

In a forum thread, I watched a member being accused of bigotry against Muslims. But I haven't seen that bigotry. Instead, I see extreme political-correctness and a need-for-moral-superiority in his accusers.

So if you say that the member is motivated by bigotry and I say that he is not, is there a way to determine which of us is enlightened, with true insight, and which of us is unenlightened and confused about the member's motivation?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Nirvana, Moksha, mystical experiences, etc.

Not usually associated with Calvinism.

I'm enlightened about some things but not those (though occasionally Nirvana). Also I'm not a Calvinist...read more closely.

 

[ratikala]

Ok, which one do you want to translate ? i'll try

thank you prabhu ji ,

now I will have to think carefully which one I would most like translated , but prehaps we should start a new thread before we are accused of being slightly off topic , how ever many people here will learn a lot about enlightenment by listening to this kafi poetry :namaste

Well.. enjoy this Guy too, he's also something similar to sian zahoor.

there was a translationfor this , how good it is ? you can tell me


1. "Maira aye charKha naoN laKha kuRey" "My existence is priceless" (Here charKha - a yarn spinning wheel - is used as a symbol of life and one's experience through life)
2. "NeuN katdi katdi pakka kuRey"
Matured and nurtured by my good deeds, devotion and love of divine.
3. "MeiN tey mang RanjheN di hoi aN"
I've given myself to the divine
4. "Mera babul karda aye dhakka kurey"
But people force me to abandon my love of divine


but it is too sad , .... "but people force me to abandon my love for the divine" ?

people may try , but if one has given onself no person can take that away . ???

what is gone canot come back


prehaps you would translate this a little differently ? I like also to hear peoples personal inturpretations , as they often tell me more about the true feeling , this way is a beautifull way to understand , this is sharing a love of the divine that can not be gained by interlectual learning and endless debating .

this to me summs up the entire question of enlightenment ,

not by dry phylosopical speculation alone , .........in the end everyone realises this and cries......" bhaja govindam ! ..bhaja govindam !"

(or simmilarly they cry for the lord by which ever name they know him)

but still they cry for the lord , ...

..... and when they do , ..... there you have it ......enlightenment !

 

[ratikala]

dear chinu bai ,

I have chosen ,
this one please ,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd0Wbli39zA&feature=player_detailpage
I eagerly await your reply :namaste

 

[Penumbra]

Enlightenment to me is knowing what and who you are in the
scheme of things.
I think of it as 'the penny dropping'.
Less than 1% of civilized manjind (my guess) have had their penny drop.
Only once we know for sure, what and who we are could we ever hope to consider the world and the creator from any other
angle aside from reason and imagination. (atheists and believers)

The journey of enlightenment must begin with the realization and separation of the true self and the false self by self observation.
This is a precondition.

Enlightenment starts when the ego acknowledges the transpersonal agency (inner being), and decides to play
nice rather than bully it.

Enlightenment will be a journey and precedes a possible transcendence (encounter with the Source).

What and who are you in the grand scheme of things?

What are the characteristics of your inner self?

 

[Penumbra]

I'm enlightened about some things but not those (though occasionally Nirvana). Also I'm not a Calvinist...read more closely.

So you are using 'Calvinisms' to refer to the comic characters in your avatar rather than the religion?

Can you clarify what you mean by occasional Nirvana?

 

[Penumbra]

discriminating wisdom.

Can you clarify what you mean here?

The rest is cool too but it's similar to what I've read elsewhere so this statement is what appears worth looking into.

 

[ratikala]

Can you clarify what you mean here?
The rest is cool too but it's similar to what I've read elsewhere so this statement is what appears worth looking into.

are you saying you have never come across discriminating wisdom ?

and if the rest you have "read" else where ,...... then you must meditate on it , make it your own , your own experience , cut it , test it , see if it stands up alone , not just because someone says it is so , you have to find that it is so , cut out everything else , little by little , test it , refine it , test it , refine it , ......

this is something you have to sit down with and ask your self what is discriminating wisdom , then you have to put it to the test , I can tell you but it will make no sence you have to examine it , descover it for your self ,

sorry , I am being mean but when you find it you will know why :namaste