Who here is enlightened?

[Leilaniana]

Is this thread for people who have had a certain experience during meditation that has been given the tag "enlightenment" or not? It has been called many things in different faiths but if someone has experienced it they would know. It is not a general happy go lucky feeling or experience. Those kind of feelings are nice but that is not the event that so many have tried to explain for eons.

do I just go to my local Buddhist temple or something?

I am not interested in every type of philosophy prancing about in disharmonious play. I am looking for people on the same path so that I can learn something form those ahead of me and light the way for those behind. would that not be the point of a religious forum or a thread about enlightenment anyway?

 

[Poeticus]

Is this thread for people who have had a certain experience during meditation that has been given the tag "enlightenment" or not? It has been called many things in different faiths but if someone has experienced it they would know. It is not a general happy go lucky feeling or experience. Those kind of feelings are nice but that is not the event that so many have tried to explain for eons.

do I just go to my local Buddhist temple or something?

I am not interested in every type of philosophy prancing about in disharmonious play. I am looking for people on the same path so that I can learn something form those ahead of me and light the way for those behind. would that not be the point of a religious forum or a thread about enlightenment anyway?

Namaste,

You gotta go through all 73 pages, homie. This is a very legit thread.

M.V.

 

[nash8]

I am already enlightened. So is everyone else. How many live it? That's the real question.

I don't know about EVERYONE lol, but there is definitely a lot. And a truer statement has never been made, living the enlightenment, that is the true meaning of enlightenment.

Is this thread for people who have had a certain experience during meditation that has been given the tag "enlightenment" or not? It has been called many things in different faiths but if someone has experienced it they would know. It is not a general happy go lucky feeling or experience. Those kind of feelings are nice but that is not the event that so many have tried to explain for eons.

do I just go to my local Buddhist temple or something?

I am not interested in every type of philosophy prancing about in disharmonious play. I am looking for people on the same path so that I can learn something form those ahead of me and light the way for those behind. would that not be the point of a religious forum or a thread about enlightenment anyway?

What path do you follow? And I would suggest starting another thread, stating what your personal view of enlightenment is, and have others comment on their experience in accordance with your particular religious discipline.

 

[Leilaniana]

I am already enlightened. So is everyone else. How many live it? That's the real question.

No, everyone has the potential to become enlightened. Everyone is not enlightened.Even the enlightened are not enlightened. There were enlightened. referencing Kensho There is no possibility for "me " to say I am enlightened. There was a before. and during I was not me. ego was gone my thoughts and senses were no longer relevant. after wards it is true I was enlightened in the past tense. I did not expect or know what was going to happen before it did. I did not know I was enlightened until after it became part of the past. But if one is to perpetuate growth to the point of their entire life being continually true by living it, that would entail much more than most are willing to give of them selves and their lives. Just being willing inside of your secret honest true self to be able to surrender to nothingness for a few seconds is more difficult than anything else I've done in 34 years. It is close to impossible to live it in the culture and time we live in.

 

[nash8]

No, everyone has the potential to become enlightened. Everyone is not enlightened.Even the enlightened are not enlightened. There were enlightened. referencing Kensho There is no possibility for "me " to say I am enlightened. There was a before. and during I was not me. ego was gone my thoughts and senses were no longer relevant. after wards it is true I was enlightened in the past tense. I did not expect or know what was going to happen before it did. I did not know I was enlightened until after it became part of the past. But if one is to perpetuate growth to the point of their entire life being continually true by living it, that would entail much more than most are willing to give of them selves and their lives. Just being willing inside of your secret honest true self to be able to surrender to nothingness for a few seconds is more difficult than anything else I've done in 34 years. It is close to impossible to live it in the culture and time we live in.

You seem to think that enlightenment can't be taken with one into their everyday waking life. In my opinion, it is possible for someone to remain enlightened after an "enlightenment" experience. This is the true meaning of enlightenment in my opinion, being able to carry that sensation that you experienced in every waking moment of your life. This is what the true masters are able to do.

In time you will learn to be able to surrender yourself to nothingnes for hours at a time if you desire. For me, the more I submit to the nothingness the less attached I become to this culture and time we live in. It makes it a lot easier, for me atleast.
It's not impossible to live in this culture and time, but it is definitely hard sometimes. But if it were easy, what would be the point, eh?

 

[Leilaniana]

I don't know about EVERYONE lol, but there is definitely a lot. And a truer statement has never been made, living the enlightenment, that is the true meaning of enlightenment.



What path do you follow? And I would suggest starting another thread, stating what your personal view of enlightenment is, and have others comment on their experience in accordance with your particular religious discipline.

Aha, that is just it. I follow the path of truth. Actually My personal belief is that there is only one religion and it is all of them. I follow whatever is true as I learn about them all. The religion I follow is non existent as far as name or a place there is not one to go to so i go to any temple I have need to learn from. There isn't one holy book it is the truth in any book. I have my own mantra and use a 108 string mala. I quote anything I can remember that is wise. Confucius, Rumi, Jesus, Buddha, Chief Seattle, whomever. As far as enlightenment there are enough faiths out there that if you are actually following any or all of them there is a description of an event. Nirvana, baptism by fire, Kensho, crown chakra awakening, whatever.

 

[Leilaniana]

You seem to think that enlightenment can't be taken with one into their everyday waking life. In my opinion, it is possible for someone to remain enlightened after an "enlightenment" experience. This is the true meaning of enlightenment in my opinion, being able to carry that sensation that you experienced in every waking moment of your life. This is what the true masters are able to do.

It's not impossible to live in this culture and time, but it is definitely hard sometimes. But if it were easy, what would be the point, eh?

I'm not able to carry it in to my everyday life. I am not a master. So the reality of the idea of living an enlightened life eludes me.

In this culture right now for me a whole lot is impossible and always has been. Much of that isn't going to change. The spiritual path sure doesn't make it any easier.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Clearly those who claim "I am enlightened" are not enlightened, but unfortunately for now are suffering under messianic wannabe delusions of grandeur. It is a kind and honourable action to help the unenlightened correct the errors of their ways.

The ego is forever the obstacle to enlightenment, for dualistic perception can't exist in a state of non-dual awareness.

When the 'I' is present, perceived existence/reality is divided into two parts, 'you' the perceiver and that perceived to be other than 'you', ie. the 'not you'.

When the mind is still and free from conceptualization of reality, there is only non-dual reality.

He who says does not know, one who knows does not say!

 

[Sunstone]

I did not expect or know what was going to happen before it did.

I think a lot more people than many of us might suppose have had experiences of kensho. They tend to come onto people unexpected and unexplained. You're not alone in the fact that you've had one. I wish you well.

 

[Windwalker]

No, everyone has the potential to become enlightened. Everyone is not enlightened.Even the enlightened are not enlightened. There were enlightened. referencing Kensho There is no possibility for "me " to say I am enlightened. There was a before. and during I was not me. ego was gone my thoughts and senses were no longer relevant. after wards it is true I was enlightened in the past tense. I did not expect or know what was going to happen before it did. I did not know I was enlightened until after it became part of the past. But if one is to perpetuate growth to the point of their entire life being continually true by living it, that would entail much more than most are willing to give of them selves and their lives. Just being willing inside of your secret honest true self to be able to surrender to nothingness for a few seconds is more difficult than anything else I've done in 34 years. It is close to impossible to live it in the culture and time we live in.

When I say we are all already fully enlightened, I mean this is our nature. Whether or not we realize that, to whatever degree, is simply a matter of us pulling back the curtain to see what has always, already been fully there.

The 'ah ha' moment, that temporary state of Kensho as you refer to it, is a moment where we were caught off guard, so to speak, and we saw. What people misunderstand it that it is something out there, outside us, beyond us we have to attain, achieve, accomplish, and possess. We treat it like looking for our eyes out there somewhere, all the while we are looking through them. It's not something cannot attain and then posses. It already fully possesses us. How much we allow it, is a matter of unlearning everything we do to disallow it.

Mediation is an unlearning process. It's learning to 'not do'. It's learning to open. It's learning to allow. It's learning to release. And as we do, we see it's who we have always been, from before the Big Bang. We have never not been that. It is only our eyes that have been shut.

Edit to add: The Buddhists refer to it as the gateless gate. A metaphor I used to say is that it's opening a window that was never actually there. The window between us and enlightenment is a window our minds put there. It doesn't actually exist.

P.P.S. As far as paths go, please read my signature line below.

 

[Windwalker]

Clearly those who claim "I am enlightened" are not enlightened, but unfortunately for now are suffering under messianic wannabe delusions of grandeur.

And when the Buddha claimed he experienced enlightenment, does this mean he was deluded by his ego, as you say anyone who recognizes enlightenment for what it is within themselves is?

It is a kind and honourable action to help the unenlightened correct the errors of their ways.

Thank you for correcting everyone and checking their egos for them.

 

[Windwalker]

Regarding we are already all enlightened, this is something I just found that might be worth the read, for those interested in expanding their perspectives regarding these things: Buddhadharma - Web Archive - You Are Already Enlightened*

"The Chan tradition does not usually refer to steps or stages. Its central teaching is that we are intrinsically awake; our mind is originally without abiding, fixations, and vexations, and its nature is without divisions and stages. This is the basis of the Chan view of sudden enlightenment. If our mind’s nature were not already free, that would imply we could become enlightened only after we practiced, which is not so. If it’s possible to gain enlightenment, then it’s possible to lose it as well.

Consider a room, which is naturally spacious. However we organize the furniture in the room will not affect its intrinsic spaciousness. We can put up walls to divide the room, but they are temporary. And whether we leave the room clean or cluttered and messy, it won’t affect its natural spaciousness. Mind is also intrinsically spacious. Although we can get caught up in our desires and aversions, our true nature is not affected by those vexations. We are inherently free.

In the Chan tradition, therefore, practice is not about producing enlightenment. You might wonder, “Then what am I doing here, practic*ing?” Because practice does help clean up the “furniture” in the “room.” By not attaching to your thoughts, you remove the furniture, so to speak. And once your mind is clean, instead of fixating on the chairs, tables, and so on, you see its spaciousness. Then you can let the furniture be or rearrange it any way you want—not for yourself, but for the benefit of others ."
​

In regards to the analogy of the room and furniture above, the ego is like furniture. Once you see it for what it is, you are free to use it, leave it alone, or move it around. You are not fixed to it. This is why in nonduality, you can be in the ego or not. You're not tied to it. Enlightenment, is knowing Freedom.

 

[Straw Dog]

Hello ben,

Clearly those who claim "I am enlightened" are not enlightened, but unfortunately for now are suffering under messianic wannabe delusions of grandeur. It is a kind and honourable action to help the unenlightened correct the errors of their ways.

Yes, it seems that there are many manifestations of wrath. Even wisdom can become intoxicating and the basis for guile.

How can we discern the "unenlightened"? How can we know which questions to ask?

The ego is forever the obstacle to enlightenment, for dualistic perception can't exist in a state of non-dual awareness.

When the 'I' is present, perceived existence/reality is divided into two parts, 'you' the perceiver and that perceived to be other than 'you', ie. the 'not you'.

When the mind is still and free from conceptualization of reality, there is only non-dual reality.

What is the "ego" in your understanding? Is it like a static object? Or does it move? Where is it centered? How can we discern which perceptions are dualistic?

I don't know that reality is necessarily divided into two parts through sensory-perception or refined conceptualization. Where you might see division, I see complementary opposition and dynamic emergence.

He who says does not know, one who knows does not say!

What is knowledge? Where does it come from? Should we abandon searching for it?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

And when the Buddha claimed he experienced enlightenment, does this mean he was deluded by his ego, as you say anyone who recognizes enlightenment for what it is within themselves is?

No Buddhas (or Christs, Saints, etc., for that matter) ever would know that they are enlightened, that's just a mental concept to represent an entity who has realized non-dual awareness.

 

[Sunstone]

No Buddhas (or Christs, Saints, etc., for that matter) ever would know that they are enlightened, that's just a mental concept to represent an entity who has realized non-dual awareness.

Didn't the Buddha himself know that he was enlightened?

 

[Windwalker]

No Buddhas (or Christs, Saints, etc., for that matter) ever would know that they are enlightened, that's just a mental concept to represent an entity who has realized non-dual awareness.

Well, if enlightenment means what you choose to call nonduality (emptiness, nirvana, etc), then to experience that Emptiness is the same thing as calling that enlightenment.

I recently read in one Sutras where Buddha specifically announced his enlightenment to his disciples. Didn't Christ declare, "I and my Father are One"? Was that his ego full of delusion, all puffed up in some messiah complex, or was it an actual awareness his mind had of true nonduality, which he then declared? Didn't Rumi (I believe) say, "To call oneself God is the most humble thing any man can say"? That doesn't sound like ego. It sounds the opposite to me. Declaring you are enlightened seems natural to do. Not egotistical. "I am Free". Is that boasting, or expressing something truly deep?

So I'm not sure what the issue is here. What's the big deal using the word enlightenment? Doesn't a rose by any other name smell as sweet? What bothers you so much to hear people say they have been enlightened that makes you appear so critical of them?

 

[Sunstone]

...then to experience that Emptiness...

During the actual experience of that emptiness, and not an instant before nor an instant afterwards, is the individual conscious of the emptiness? By conscious, I mean in the normal, day to day sense of being conscious. Put differently, does the individual have a sense of being an "I", is there anything in the individual's field of perception that the individual is aware of as being separate or other than him or her, and is the individual storing memories in his or her brain that will later be accessible to consciousness?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Hello ben,

Yes, it seems that there are many manifestations of wrath. Even wisdom can become intoxicating and the basis for guile.

How can we discern the "unenlightened"? How can we know which questions to ask?

What is the "ego" in your understanding? Is it like a static object? Or does it move? Where is it centered? How can we discern which perceptions are dualistic?

I don't know that reality is necessarily divided into two parts through sensory-perception or refined conceptualization. Where you might see division, I see complementary opposition and dynamic emergence.

What is knowledge? Where does it come from? Should we abandon searching for it?

Hi friend Straw Dog,

What is an essential prerequisite before expecting meaningful answers to the many questions (and this applies to all aspirants) that arise in the mind, is to find out absolutely 'what' and 'who' it is that is asking the question.

Now the answer to this needs to be not a mental conceptual one but to be realized absolutely. Iow, find out 'what' and 'who' 'you' are, without using the dualistic conceptual mind.

So long as the questioner hasn't realized enlightenment, any attempts to convey conceptually the answers to the questions will not be understood....casting pearls before swine...

 

[nash8]

Are you enlightened?

 

[Windwalker]

During the actual experience of that emptiness, and not an instant before nor an instant afterwards, is the individual conscious of the emptiness? By conscious, I mean in the normal, day to day sense of being conscious. Put differently, does the individual have a sense of being an "I", and is the individual storing memories in his or her brain that will later be accessible to consciousness?

Of course to put this into words colors it to be other than it is, as I'm sure you know. That said, what is "experienced" is just Consciousness itself, with a capital C. It is not 'your consciousness'. It is simply Awareness. Is there a sense of "I", as in 'me' looking at it and thinking about it? No. That sense of a separate self dissolves into pure Awareness itself. Can our mind access that afterwards? Of course. But how we then proceed to conceptualize it changes it. it's now a mind-object, a memory, a representation. Awareness itself is object-less.

But of course, that's not the nondual experience which can embrace duality. That's the next turning of the wheel of dharma with Nagarjuna in the East, and Plotinus in the West, moving beyond Nirvana into the world of form. If you're interested in reading the difference between what people commonly call nonduality versus what the nondual schools actually teach, this is a great article to explain the difference: Not Duality is Not Non Duality | School of Yogic Buddhism