3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
No not at all. The scripture provided only show Gods Word is both spoken and recorded as scriptureCircular reasoning.
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No not at all. The scripture provided only show Gods Word is both spoken and recorded as scriptureCircular reasoning.
Well that is not true at all as already proven from New testament scriptures in the OP on page one. Also, this OP is not about replacement theology it is only showing from the scriptures that Gods Israel is defined in the NT as all those who though faith believe and obey what Gods Word says and includes both believing Jews and Gentiles who are now grafted in. Think your argument through. If you are not a part of Gods Israel in the new covenant you are not a part of Gods new covenant promise which was only ever made to Israel (see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-36). According to the new covenant scriptures, Gods Israel in the new covenant are no longer those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham (Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29 and Galatians 3:28-29) but are now all those who are born again of the Spirit of God through faith in Gods Word (see John 3:3-7; compare 1 John 3:4-10 and Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4) into Gods new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27). Therefore, Gods Israel according to the scriptures in the new covenant are now all those who through faith believe and follow Gods Word and all believers both Jews and gentiles are all now one in Christ (Romans 10:11-13; Colossians 3:11). Gentile believers have been grafted in with Jewish believers (Romans 11:13-27).Actually, I don’t think the NT promotes the idea of a spiritual Israel, although many Christians do who espouse replacement theology and who do not rightly divide the word of God.
According to the scriptures, Israel is always Israel; literal Israel.
I don’t think you are rightly dividing the scriptures. Israel is always literal Israel.GOD'S ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES ARE NOW ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND OBEY GOD'S WORD!
According to the scriptures, the name "Israel" is only a name given by God to all those who choose to have faith in His Word. In the new covenant scriptures, I would like to pose that Gods true Israel in the new covenant are no longer those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham (Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29 and Galatians 3:28-29) but are now all those who are born again of the Spirit of God through faith (see John 3:3-7; compare 1 John 3:4-10 and Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4) into Gods new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27). Therefore, Gods Israel according to the scriptures in the new covenant are now all those who through faith believe and follow what Gods Word says and all believers both Jews and gentiles are all now one in Christ (Romans 10:11-13; Colossians 3:11) through faith in Gods Word. Gentile believers have been grafted in with Jewish believers (Romans 11:13-27). According to the scriptures, if we are not a part of Gods Israel in the new covenant then we have no part in God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12. God never made His new covenant with Gentiles (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27) but with believers regardless of their heritage.
According to the torah and new covenant scriptures the Messiah also represents God's true ISRAEL as an individual as it was applied to Jacob and as to those who also believe and follow God's Word. The Messiah (Jesus Christ) and his followers are Gods true Israel born of the Spirit of God, are the anti-type, the Israel in the flesh that is not the type as Jacob was or the nation of Israel born of the seen of Abraham. According to the scriptures, Jesus is Israel (Matthew 2:13-15, compare with Hosea 11:1; as are all his disciples all through time; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33), the true "overcomer" (John 16:33; Revelation 3:21), the real "Prince" with God (Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 8:11,25, 9:25, 10:13,21, 11:22, 12:1; Acts 3:15, 5:31; Revelation 1:5), being Lord over His own house, whose house are we (Psalms 98:3; Hebrews 3:6; Jeremiah 31:33), who himself is the "elect" (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God find their realization (2 Corinthians 1:20). The promises made by God were all based upon condition (Exodus 19) see Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; Jeremiah 31:33; Romans 9:6-8; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33, 16:33, 17:12, 18:9, 21:5; 1 Corinthians 15:46; 2 Corinthians 1:20; Galatians 6:16; Hebrews 3:6, 8:8,10; Revelation 3:21
'Israel' "born after the flesh of the seed of Abraham", as an unbelieving 'nation', is left desolate (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), to bear no more fruit ever again (Matthew 21:19), cursed, withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the roots (Mark 11:20), "twice dead" (Jude 1:12), and the axe already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), cut down and to be thrown into the fire. The New [or Everlasting] Covenant is only made with the spiritual “Israel” (Jesus Christ, the "elect" of the Father; Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18-20), this “Judah” (Revelation 5:5) and His “house” (2 Corinthians 1:20 - For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.; – for Christ Jesus, the true “Israel” is the “elect” of God, and thus all who choose to be in Him; see Isaiah 42:1, 45:4, 65:9) The new testament scriptures portray JESUS as the head and those who believe and follow his Word as the body *Ephesians 1:22; 4:15; 5:23; Colossians 1:18. God's ISRAEL are all those who believe and follow God's Word.
More to come later....
1. ORIGINS OF THE NAME ISRAEL IS OUTSIDE OF COVENANTS
2. GOD'S ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT SCRIPTURES ARE NOW ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND OBEY GODS WORD
3. GENTILE BELIEVERS ARE NOW GRAFTED IN
May God bless you as you seek to know Him through His Word.
Here's an explanation of what circular reasoning is:No not at all. The scripture provided only show Gods Word is both spoken and recorded as scripture
The Church/ Body of Christ is made up of both believing Jews and Gentiles, not Israel. That is the teaching of the NT.Well that is not true at all as already proven from New testament scriptures in the OP on page one. Also, this OP is not about replacement theology it is only showing from the scriptures that Gods Israel is defined in the NT as all those who though faith believe and obey what Gods Word says and includes both believing Jews and Gentiles who are now grafted in. Think your argument through. If you are not a part of Gods Israel in the new covenant you are not a part of Gods new covenant promise which was only ever made to Israel (see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-36).
Take Care.
Then prove your claims from the scriptures. Tell me exactly what it is you disagree with and why you disagree with the OP. You quoting you saying I am not rightly dividing the scriptures when I have only posted scripture as proof of this OP and you posting you that you disagree with the scriptures that have been shared that are in disagreement with you is only you arguing against Gods Word. Please show exactly what I have written you are in disagreement with and prove from the scriptures why you disagree. If you can't what is your argument. You have none except you disagree but do not know why you are in disagreement.I don’t think you are rightly dividing the scriptures. Israel is always literal Israel.
I suggest you are not rightly dividing the scriptures here by disregarding the scripture context. Note the scripture context of 1 Corinthians 10:32 is 1 Corinthians 10:18, Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? The scriptures are talking about giving offense by eating of food sacrificed to idols. The scripture is not talking about who Gods true Israel is. Paul states in the context that he is referring to Israel according to the flesh. Paul is not talking about Israel born in the Spirit. What Paul does say though as already been highlighted in the OP is in Romans 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe and have faith> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.“After the Cross a new entity came into existence—the church that Jesus Christ promised He would build (Mt 16:18). As a result, there are now three divisions of mankind: Jews, Gentiles and the church. Paul tells us that we are to "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God" (1 Cor:10:32). It is absolutely essential to understand that these three groups exist side by side in today's world, to distinguish between them, and to recognize that God deals with each differently.”
I am not teaching that the Church is Israel. As shown through the scriptures in the OP on page one. The scriptures teach all who believe and obey what Gods Word says both Jews and Gentiles are Gods Israel and are all now one in Christ. Unbelieving Jews have been broken off (Romans 11:13-26) but can be grafted back in if they choose to believe. Once again, read the bible for yourself and think your argument through. If you are not a part of Gods Israel in the new covenant you are not a part of Gods new covenant promise which was only ever made to Israel (see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-36). According to the new covenant scriptures, Gods Israel in the new covenant are no longer those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham (Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29 and Galatians 3:28-29) but are now all those who are born again of the Spirit of God through faith in Gods Word (see John 3:3-7; compare 1 John 3:4-10 and Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4) into Gods new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27). Therefore, Gods Israel according to the scriptures in the new covenant are now all those who through faith believe and follow Gods Word and all believers both Jews and gentiles are all now one in Christ (Romans 10:11-13; Colossians 3:11). Gentile believers have been grafted in with Jewish believers (Romans 11:13-27).“Those who teach that the church is Israel go on to claim that the church is heir to all of the promises given to Israel. This is as ludicrous as claiming that "the land of Israel" is now "the land of the church." Clearly the church has no relationship to the land God gave to Israel. Hear God's promise: "...though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee...He that scattered Israel will gather him...they shall come and sing in the height of Zion...they shall not sorrow any more at all" (Jer:30:10-11; 31:3-14; etc.)
This section of your websites post is waffle. Lets talk scripture. 'Israel' "born after the flesh of the seed of Abraham", as an unbelieving 'nation', is left desolate (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), to bear no more fruit ever again (Matthew 21:19), cursed, withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the roots (Mark 11:20), "twice dead" (Jude 1:12), and the axe already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), cut down and ready to be thrown into the fire. Unbelieving Jews who have repented of their unbelief through faith in Gods promised Messiah and Gods Word can still be grafted back if they choose to believe (see Romans 11:13-26).“The preservation of the Israelis as an identifiable people, in spite of the proverbial "wandering Jews'" 2,500-year diaspora from the promised land, and the establishment of Israel in 1948, constitute irrefutable proof for the existence of the "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" and the validity of His Holy Word. Therefore, to insist that Israel no longer has any claim to her ancient homeland, and that her return thereto is a mere coincidence, denies one of the most persuasive arguments for belief in God and the gospel. It dishonors Him and His Word, and is not only illogical but evil!”
Look at what you have written here. Jewish believers are already Gods true Israel. That is the start of the Church. The Church was started by Jews who believed Gods Word. This is Gods Israel (believing Jews who believed and accepted Gods Messiah in Jesus). The scriptures teach that unbelieving Israel are the branches that have been broken off so that gentile believers through their faith are grafted into Gods Israel in Romans 11:13-26 (see post # 25 linked). Lets be honest. You have not addressed a single post in this OP now have you.The Church/ Body of Christ is made up of both believing Jews and Gentiles, not Israel. That is the teaching of the NT.
As posted earlier it is not circular reasoning to post scripture that states Gods Word is both the spoken Word of God and the inspired God breathed recorded written Words of God (scripture).Here's an explanation of what circular reasoning is:
Description: A type of reasoning in which the proposition is supported by the premises, which is supported by the proposition, creating a circle in reasoning where no useful information is being shared.
The post was wrong. Circular reasoning is characterised by an idea that is internally consistent but has no actual connection to reality. You haven't shown that the idea that "God's word is written" has any connection to reality.As posted earlier it is not circular reasoning to post scripture that states Gods Word is both the spoken Word of God and the inspired God breathed recorded written Words of God (scripture).
Well that is true dear friend. I posted scripture that proves that Gods Word is both Gods spoken word (example Gods 10 commandments directly spoken by God Himself) and Gods recorded written Word (example Gods 10 commandments spoken by God were recorded by Moses in Exodus 20 as scripture). Just because Gods Word is recorded as scripture does not make it any less Gods Word, just like God using His Spirit to put His Words in the mouth of His prophets who are inspired by Gods Spirit to give His Word to His people and recorded as scripture for is to learn about today.The post was wrong. Circular reasoning is characterised by an idea that is internally consistent but has no actual connection to reality. You haven't shown that the idea that "God's word is written" has any connection to reality.
An example of circular reasoning would be "It's the word of God. It says right there in the text that it's the word of God."Well that is true dear friend. I posted scripture to show Gods Word is both Gods spoken word (example Gods 10 commandments directly spoken by God and Gods recorded written Word (example Gods 10 commandments spoken by God were recorded by Moses in Exodus 20).
Scripture is just a name for doctrine that you like.Well that is true dear friend. I posted scripture that proves that Gods Word is both Gods spoken word (example Gods 10 commandments directly spoken by God Himself) and Gods recorded written Word (example Gods 10 commandments spoken by God were recorded by Moses in Exodus 20 as scripture).
It makes sense because in the original context it is always spoken. Written records can contain errors.It makes no sense to say that the ten commandments are the word of God when spoken out loud, but not the word of God if written down.
Scripture is the Word of God as demonstrated through the scriptures already provided.An example of circular reasoning would be "It's the word of God. It says right there in the text that it's the word of God."
Agreed that is my point.I think, 3rd Angel, that in your favor is that fact that really ALL WE HAVE, is a written text, whether it is the ten commandments or what. It makes no sense to say that the ten commandments are the word of God when spoken out loud, but not the word of God if written down.
Agreed. How we know about it today however is in the recorded written Words of scripture.It is worth mentioning that the expression "the word of God" in the Bible quite often seems to refer to some sort of divine trance that comes over a prophet in which he receives instructions. For example, 1 Chronicles 17:3 "But that night the word of God came to Nathan, saying:"
Already addressed with the scriptures that are in disagreement with you see post # 33 linked you ignored it.Scripture is just a name for doctrine that you like. It makes sense because in the original context it is always spoken. Written records can contain errors.
Already addressed with the scriptures that are in disagreement with you see post # 33 linked you ignored it.
I posted scripture that proves that Gods Word is both Gods spoken word (example Gods 10 commandments directly spoken by God Himself) and Gods recorded written Word (example Gods 10 commandments spoken by God were recorded by Moses in Exodus 20 as scripture).
Let's assume you take the Bible at face value. The Prophets are not spoken to directly by God, but through dreams and visions. Are you saying that you do not accept the books of the prophets as the word of God?Scripture is just a name for doctrine that you like.
It makes sense because in the original context it is always spoken. Written records can contain errors.
And that is the precise example of circular reasoning that I mentioned. You cannot use the claim of the text that it is the word of God as proof that it is the word of God.Scripture is the Word of God as demonstrated through the scriptures already provided.
Best not to make assumptions. There's a lot of meaningful content that is only found by inference.Let's assume you take the Bible at face value.
"God" doesn't describe Elohim in this context.The Prophets are not spoken to directly by God, but through dreams and visions.
Please forgive me but I do not believe you. Why would I believe the Quran is the Word of God. The torah already tells me its not true and I have met the God of the bible and know he is real and His Word is true and have no doubt. I can indeed use the claim of the text because it is the scriptures that state this claim and I believe it to be Gods Word because the scriptures say so not because I say so. The scriptures therefore are my evidence. I am surprised you cannot see this but then again not really. This is why the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God because Gods salvation is conditional on us believing and obeying what His Word says.And that is the precise example of circular reasoning that I mentioned. You cannot use the claim of the text that it is the word of God as proof that it is the word of God. Let me demonstrate this from the Quran, so that you can see the fallacious nature of the reasoning.
At-Takwir 81:19[/URL Indeed, this ˹Quran˺ is the Word of ˹Allah delivered by Gabriel,˺ a noble messenger-angel, So basically, the Quran claims to be the word of God. Is that evidence enough for you that the Quran is the word of God?
You covered a bunch.GOD'S ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES ARE NOW ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND OBEY GOD'S WORD!
According to the scriptures, the name "Israel" is only a name given by God to all those who choose to have faith in His Word. In the new covenant scriptures, I would like to pose that Gods true Israel in the new covenant are no longer those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham (Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29 and Galatians 3:28-29) but are now all those who are born again of the Spirit of God through faith (see John 3:3-7; compare 1 John 3:4-10 and Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4) into Gods new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27). Therefore, Gods Israel according to the scriptures in the new covenant are now all those who through faith believe and follow what Gods Word says and all believers both Jews and gentiles are all now one in Christ (Romans 10:11-13; Colossians 3:11) through faith in Gods Word. Gentile believers have been grafted in with Jewish believers (Romans 11:13-27). According to the scriptures, if we are not a part of Gods Israel in the new covenant then we have no part in God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12. God never made His new covenant with Gentiles (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27) but with believers regardless of their heritage.
According to the torah and new covenant scriptures the Messiah also represents God's true ISRAEL as an individual as it was applied to Jacob and as to those who also believe and follow God's Word. The Messiah (Jesus Christ) and his followers are Gods true Israel born of the Spirit of God, are the anti-type, the Israel in the flesh that is not the type as Jacob was or the nation of Israel born of the seen of Abraham. According to the scriptures, Jesus is Israel (Matthew 2:13-15, compare with Hosea 11:1; as are all his disciples all through time; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33), the true "overcomer" (John 16:33; Revelation 3:21), the real "Prince" with God (Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 8:11,25, 9:25, 10:13,21, 11:22, 12:1; Acts 3:15, 5:31; Revelation 1:5), being Lord over His own house, whose house are we (Psalms 98:3; Hebrews 3:6; Jeremiah 31:33), who himself is the "elect" (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God find their realization (2 Corinthians 1:20). The promises made by God were all based upon condition (Exodus 19) see Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; Jeremiah 31:33; Romans 9:6-8; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33, 16:33, 17:12, 18:9, 21:5; 1 Corinthians 15:46; 2 Corinthians 1:20; Galatians 6:16; Hebrews 3:6, 8:8,10; Revelation 3:21
'Israel' "born after the flesh of the seed of Abraham", as an unbelieving 'nation', is left desolate (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), to bear no more fruit ever again (Matthew 21:19), cursed, withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the roots (Mark 11:20), "twice dead" (Jude 1:12), and the axe already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), cut down and to be thrown into the fire. The New [or Everlasting] Covenant is only made with the spiritual “Israel” (Jesus Christ, the "elect" of the Father; Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18-20), this “Judah” (Revelation 5:5) and His “house” (2 Corinthians 1:20 - For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.; – for Christ Jesus, the true “Israel” is the “elect” of God, and thus all who choose to be in Him; see Isaiah 42:1, 45:4, 65:9) The new testament scriptures portray JESUS as the head and those who believe and follow his Word as the body *Ephesians 1:22; 4:15; 5:23; Colossians 1:18. God's ISRAEL are all those who believe and follow God's Word.
More to come later....
1. ORIGINS OF THE NAME ISRAEL IS OUTSIDE OF COVENANTS
2. GOD'S ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT SCRIPTURES ARE NOW ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND OBEY GODS WORD
3. GENTILE BELIEVERS ARE NOW GRAFTED IN
May God bless you as you seek to know Him through His Word.