3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
No not at all. The scripture provided only show Gods Word is both spoken and recorded as scripture
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WHO IS GOD'S TRUE ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT?
- Thread starter 3rdAngel
- Start date
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Well that is not true at all as already proven from New testament scriptures in the OP on page one. Also, this OP is not about replacement theology it is only showing from the scriptures that Gods Israel is defined in the NT as all those who though faith believe and obey what Gods Word says and includes both believing Jews and Gentiles who are now grafted in. Think your argument through. If you are not a part of Gods Israel in the new covenant you are not a part of Gods new covenant promise which was only ever made to Israel (see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-36). According to the new covenant scriptures, Gods Israel in the new covenant are no longer those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham (Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29 and Galatians 3:28-29) but are now all those who are born again of the Spirit of God through faith in Gods Word (see John 3:3-7; compare 1 John 3:4-10 and Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4) into Gods new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27). Therefore, Gods Israel according to the scriptures in the new covenant are now all those who through faith believe and follow Gods Word and all believers both Jews and gentiles are all now one in Christ (Romans 10:11-13; Colossians 3:11). Gentile believers have been grafted in with Jewish believers (Romans 11:13-27).
Take Care.
InChrist
Free4ever
I don’t think you are rightly dividing the scriptures. Israel is always literal Israel.
“After the Cross a new entity came into existence—the church that Jesus Christ promised He would build (Mt 16:18). As a result, there are now three divisions of mankind: Jews, Gentiles and the church. Paul tells us that we are to "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God" (1 Cor:10:32). It is absolutely essential to understand that these three groups exist side by side in today's world, to distinguish between them, and to recognize that God deals with each differently.”
“Those who teach that the church is Israel go on to claim that the church is heir to all of the promises given to Israel. This is as ludicrous as claiming that "the land of Israel" is now "the land of the church." Clearly the church has no relationship to the land God gave to Israel. Hear God's promise: "...though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee...He that scattered Israel will gather him...they shall come and sing in the height of Zion...they shall not sorrow any more at all" (Jer:30:10-11; 31:3-14; etc.)
“The preservation of the Israelis as an identifiable people, in spite of the proverbial "wandering Jews'" 2,500-year diaspora from the promised land, and the establishment of Israel in 1948, constitute irrefutable proof for the existence of the "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" and the validity of His Holy Word. Therefore, to insist that Israel no longer has any claim to her ancient homeland, and that her return thereto is a mere coincidence, denies one of the most persuasive arguments for belief in God and the gospel. It dishonors Him and His Word, and is not only illogical but evil!”
Jews, Gentiles, and the Church
Before the cross of Christ, mankind was divided into two groups: Jews and Gentiles. The Old and New Testaments both make very clear what caused this distinction. It was the covenants God had made with
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Here's an explanation of what circular reasoning is:
Description: A type of reasoning in which the proposition is supported by the premises, which is supported by the proposition, creating a circle in reasoning where no useful information is being shared.
Circular Reasoning
A type of reasoning in which the proposition is supported by the premises, which is supported by the proposition, creating a circle in reasoning where no useful information is being shared. This fallacy is often quite humorous.
InChrist
Free4ever
The Church/ Body of Christ is made up of both believing Jews and Gentiles, not Israel. That is the teaching of the NT.
The new covenant is for Israel, as was the old covenant. In God’s grace He has allowed Gentile believers in Jesus Christ to enter in or be grafted in during this Church age of grace, but the new covenant will actually find fulfillment with Israel during the millennial kingdom and in heaven with all believers for eternity.
What is the New Covenant? | GotQuestions.org
What is the New Covenant? How is the New Covenant related to premillennialism and amillennialism?
www.gotquestions.org
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Then prove your claims from the scriptures. Tell me exactly what it is you disagree with and why you disagree with the OP. You quoting you saying I am not rightly dividing the scriptures when I have only posted scripture as proof of this OP and you posting you that you disagree with the scriptures that have been shared that are in disagreement with you is only you arguing against Gods Word. Please show exactly what I have written you are in disagreement with and prove from the scriptures why you disagree. If you can't what is your argument. You have none except you disagree but do not know why you are in disagreement.
I suggest you are not rightly dividing the scriptures here by disregarding the scripture context. Note the scripture context of 1 Corinthians 10:32 is 1 Corinthians 10:18, Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? The scriptures are talking about giving offense by eating of food sacrificed to idols. The scripture is not talking about who Gods true Israel is. Paul states in the context that he is referring to Israel according to the flesh. Paul is not talking about Israel born in the Spirit. What Paul does say though as already been highlighted in the OP is in Romans 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe and have faith> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.
I am not teaching that the Church is Israel. As shown through the scriptures in the OP on page one. The scriptures teach all who believe and obey what Gods Word says both Jews and Gentiles are Gods Israel and are all now one in Christ. Unbelieving Jews have been broken off (Romans 11:13-26) but can be grafted back in if they choose to believe. Once again, read the bible for yourself and think your argument through. If you are not a part of Gods Israel in the new covenant you are not a part of Gods new covenant promise which was only ever made to Israel (see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-36). According to the new covenant scriptures, Gods Israel in the new covenant are no longer those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham (Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29 and Galatians 3:28-29) but are now all those who are born again of the Spirit of God through faith in Gods Word (see John 3:3-7; compare 1 John 3:4-10 and Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4) into Gods new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27). Therefore, Gods Israel according to the scriptures in the new covenant are now all those who through faith believe and follow Gods Word and all believers both Jews and gentiles are all now one in Christ (Romans 10:11-13; Colossians 3:11). Gentile believers have been grafted in with Jewish believers (Romans 11:13-27).
This section of your websites post is waffle. Lets talk scripture. 'Israel' "born after the flesh of the seed of Abraham", as an unbelieving 'nation', is left desolate (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), to bear no more fruit ever again (Matthew 21:19), cursed, withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the roots (Mark 11:20), "twice dead" (Jude 1:12), and the axe already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), cut down and ready to be thrown into the fire. Unbelieving Jews who have repented of their unbelief through faith in Gods promised Messiah and Gods Word can still be grafted back if they choose to believe (see Romans 11:13-26).
Take Care.
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3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Look at what you have written here. Jewish believers are already Gods true Israel. That is the start of the Church. The Church was started by Jews who believed Gods Word. This is Gods Israel (believing Jews who believed and accepted Gods Messiah in Jesus). The scriptures teach that unbelieving Israel are the branches that have been broken off so that gentile believers through their faith are grafted into Gods Israel in Romans 11:13-26 (see post # 25 linked). Lets be honest. You have not addressed a single post in this OP now have you.
- Hebrews 8:10-12 10, FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAID THE LORD; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11, And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12, For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Take Care.
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3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
As posted earlier it is not circular reasoning to post scripture that states Gods Word is both the spoken Word of God and the inspired God breathed recorded written Words of God (scripture).
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
The post was wrong. Circular reasoning is characterised by an idea that is internally consistent but has no actual connection to reality. You haven't shown that the idea that "God's word is written" has any connection to reality.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Well that is true dear friend. I posted scripture that proves that Gods Word is both Gods spoken word (example Gods 10 commandments directly spoken by God Himself) and Gods recorded written Word (example Gods 10 commandments spoken by God were recorded by Moses in Exodus 20 as scripture). Just because Gods Word is recorded as scripture does not make it any less Gods Word, just like God using His Spirit to put His Words in the mouth of His prophets who are inspired by Gods Spirit to give His Word to His people and recorded as scripture for is to learn about today.
Again according to the scriptures, Gods Word is both spoken and recorded as scripture which is God breathed and inspired by God through His Spirit which is why it is written in the words of Jesus quoting Deuteronomy 8:3 in Matthew 4:4 "Man does not live by bread alone but by every words that proceeds out of the mouth of God. I even used the scripture that you quoted from Isaiah 59:21 that says; "As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever. 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God (Gods Spirit), and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
All scripture dear friend, is Gods recorded inspired written Word of God. As demonstrated above from the scriptures your claims that scripture is not Gods Word is false and you do not understand circular reasoning.
Take Care.
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IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
An example of circular reasoning would be "It's the word of God. It says right there in the text that it's the word of God."
I think, 3rd Angel, that in your favor is that fact that really ALL WE HAVE, is a written text, whether it is the ten commandments or what. It makes no sense to say that the ten commandments are the word of God when spoken out loud, but not the word of God if written down.
It is worth mentioning that the expression "the word of God" in the Bible quite often seems to refer to some sort of divine trance that comes over a prophet in which he receives instructions. For example, 1 Chronicles 17:3 "But that night the word of God came to Nathan, saying:"
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Scripture is just a name for doctrine that you like.
It makes sense because in the original context it is always spoken. Written records can contain errors.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Scripture is the Word of God as demonstrated through the scriptures already provided.
Agreed that is my point.
Agreed. How we know about it today however is in the recorded written Words of scripture.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Already addressed with the scriptures that are in disagreement with you see post # 33 linked you ignored it.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Let's assume you take the Bible at face value. The Prophets are not spoken to directly by God, but through dreams and visions. Are you saying that you do not accept the books of the prophets as the word of God?
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
And that is the precise example of circular reasoning that I mentioned. You cannot use the claim of the text that it is the word of God as proof that it is the word of God.
Let me demonstrate this from the Quran, so that you can see the fallacious nature of the reasoning.
At-Takwir 81:19
Indeed, this ˹Quran˺ is the Word of ˹Allah delivered by Gabriel,˺ a noble messenger-angel,
So basically, the Quran claims to be the word of God. Is that evidence enough for you that the Quran is the word of God?
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Best not to make assumptions. There's a lot of meaningful content that is only found by inference.
"God" doesn't describe Elohim in this context.
So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.
And Elohim spake all these words, saying,
Exodus 19:25-20:1
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Please forgive me but I do not believe you. Why would I believe the Quran is the Word of God. The torah already tells me its not true and I have met the God of the bible and know he is real and His Word is true and have no doubt. I can indeed use the claim of the text because it is the scriptures that state this claim and I believe it to be Gods Word because the scriptures say so not because I say so. The scriptures therefore are my evidence. I am surprised you cannot see this but then again not really. This is why the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God because Gods salvation is conditional on us believing and obeying what His Word says.
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You covered a bunch.
What IS REAL is the comprehension and understanding of how existence operates. By the holy of holies conscious life can understand.
Pursuing how and why, is what the unveiling is about to enable what IS REAL to all of us.
My pun is if conscious life did understand the truth, then the whole universe IS REAL, not a little arm pit of land in the ME.
That finality: the last word (holy of holies - name of god, in mathematical theorem) unfolds, the 4 colors of mankind combine, 3 from each make the 12 and the book of life (an owners manual) can be created for the children (future generations) to have straight answers available.
That's it.
No magic no miracles, just stratight answers and the whole universe IS REAL.
I call it STUPID EASY!