WHO IS GOD'S TRUE ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT?

[3rdAngel]

You covered a bunch.

What IS REAL is the comprehension and understanding of how existence operates. By the holy of holies conscious life can understand.

Pursuing how and why, is what the unveiling is about to enable what IS REAL to all of us.

My pun is if conscious life did understand the truth, then the whole universe IS REAL, not a little arm pit of land in the ME.

That finality: the last word (holy of holies - name of god, in mathematical theorem) unfolds, the 4 colors of mankind combine, 3 from each make the 12 and the book of life (an owners manual) can be created for the children (future generations) to have straight answers available.

That's it.

No magic no miracles, just stratight answers and the whole universe IS REAL.

I call it STUPID EASY!

Hi Bthoth nice to meet you and welcome.

 

[Ebionite]

The torah already tells me its not true

And yet Isaiah describes Mohammad's illiteracy (not learned is translated from the Hebrew for not know book, i.e. illiterate).

And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Isaiah 29:12

An Angel came to him and asked him to read. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) replied, "I do not know how to read.

Sahih al-Bukhari 4953 - Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)) - كتاب التفسير - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) in English and Arabic

sunnah.com

 

[Bthoth]

Hi Bthoth nice to meet you and welcome.

Hello and how are you doing this fine day in paradise?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Oneness of God and the Oneness of all the Messengers of God is the key. Thou shall not kill, (outside the law) the greatest of commandments.

The Oneness of Humanity will see a future where all Nations will flow up the Mountain of the Lord as brothers and sisters of one planet, earth.

Peace and Love to all humanity, of all Nations.

Regards Tony

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Please forgive me but I do not believe you.

Again, you have totally missed the point.

I gave an example to illustrate to you why using the bible to prove the bible is circular reasoning. Just as the fact that the Quran claims to be the word of God doesn't make it so, so also just because the Bible claims to be the word of God doesn't make it so.

I was NOT saying that the Quran was the word of God.

There is something seriously impaired with your reading comprehension.

 

[3rdAngel]

Again, you have totally missed the point.

I gave an example to illustrate to you why using the bible to prove the bible is circular reasoning. Just as the fact that the Quran claims to be the word of God doesn't make it so, so also just because the Bible claims to be the word of God doesn't make it so.

I was NOT saying that the Quran was the word of God.

There is something seriously impaired with your reading comprehension.

Not really I think you missed the point. If you do not believe the scriptures are Gods Word then this is the reason you will never be able know God or follow Him because according to these same scriptures you are still in your unbelief and sins. Your argument is simply that of an unbeliever that does not know God or His Word. According to the scriptures our salvation is conditional on us believing and obeying what Gods Word says.

 

[Ebionite]

If you do not believe the scriptures are Gods Word then this is the reason you will never be able know God or follow Him because according to these same scriptures you are still in your unbelief and sins.

The "God" you're describing doesn't have any connection to the Elohim of the Hebrew Tanak.

Knowledge is derived from facts and reason, not from belief.

Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Come now, and let us reason together, saith YHWH: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isaiah 1:17-18

 

[3rdAngel]

The "God" you're describing doesn't have any connection to the Elohim of the Hebrew Tanak.

Knowledge is derived from facts and reason, not from belief.

Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Come now, and let us reason together, saith YHWH: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isaiah 1:17-18

Nonsense.. the God I am describing is the God of the new testament and the old testament. It is the one that you choose not to believe and follow because you do not believe His Words and the same one who says in John 3:36 36, He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him.

 

[Ebionite]

Nonsense.. the God I am describing is the God of the new testament and the old testament.

Wrong, "God" is a translation of the Hebrew word Elohim, which is plural, not singular.

 

[3rdAngel]

Wrong, "God" is a translation of the Hebrew word Elohim, which is plural, not singular.

Nope, your presumption is wrong. Where did I say God is singular? If I never stated anywhere in this OP that God is singular why pretend that I did?

 

[Ebionite]

Nope, your presumption is wrong. Where did I say God is singular?

My presumption is not wrong. You said "his words", which implies that you were talking about a singular being, and yet you referred to this singular being using the word God, which is typically a translation of the plural Hebrew word Elohim.

 

[3rdAngel]

My presumption is not wrong. You said "his words", which implies that you were talking about a singular being, and yet you referred to this singular being using the word God, which is typically a translation of the plural Hebrew word Elohim.

So that is a no, you cannot provide me with any quotes of me saying to you that God is a singular being even after I told you that was your presumption wrong? Then that would mean you are bearing false witness against your neighbor. I will leave that between you and God to work out then. In the future you are better off asking people what they believe then to make up things that they do not believe. Your presumption is indeed wrong and now your bearing false witness.

 

[Ebionite]

So that is a no, you cannot provide me with any quotes of me saying to you that God is a singular being even after I told you that was your presumption wrong?

Straw man. You're avoiding the issue of "his words", which is relevant to your reference to a singular being.

 

[Brickjectivity]

May God bless you as you seek to know Him through His Word.

"Destroy this temple, and I can rebuild it in three days." This does not happen though Jesus says it to the high priest in court. Jesus is a human, and his body is what is destroyed and rebuilt in three days. His Jewish brothers think he is talking about their building. He knows this, yet he deceives them in direct contravention of the law. He breaks the law. Jesus lies to the high priest's face. To see this requires overlapping the gospels John and Matthew and looking at the command in Leviticus 19. Here is the scripture evidence showing Jesus breaks the law:

[Jhn 2:19 NIV] 19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."​

[Mat 26:60-63 NIV] 60 But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward. Finally two came forward 61 and declared, "This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.' " 62 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 63 But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God."​

[Mat 26:62 NIV] 62 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?"​

[Lev 19:11 NIV] 11 " 'Do not steal. " 'Do not lie. " 'Do not deceive one another.​

"Do not deceive one another," but Jesus does both in and out of court. This is only one item, and many other examples of slight of speech completely undermines the force of an argument like the one in the OP. We cannot rely upon words. A Jew may not lie in court, but Jesus does. As I see it this does not end Christianity, but it does rewrite it. It is not a fundamentalist movement. It is not a replacement for the Jews, and it is not a substitute for the Jews.

May God bless those who work to renew the world in peace and goodwill.

 

[3rdAngel]

Straw man. You're avoiding the issue of "his words", which is relevant to your reference to a singular being.

Sorry dear friend I did not avoid anything and you are not being truthful. How is me asking you for proof of claims you were making about what I believe after I told you I do not believe in a singular God a strawman? I suggest you do not know what a strawman is.

 

[3rdAngel]

"Destroy this temple, and I can rebuild it in three days." This does not happen though Jesus says it to the high priest in court. Jesus is a human, and his body is what is destroyed and rebuilt in three days. His Jewish brothers think he is talking about their building. He knows this, yet he deceives them in direct contravention of the law. He breaks the law. Jesus lies to the high priest's face. To see this requires overlapping the gospels John and Matthew and looking at the command in Leviticus 19. Here is the scripture evidence showing Jesus breaks the law:

[Jhn 2:19 NIV] 19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."​

[Mat 26:60-63 NIV] 60 But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward. Finally two came forward 61 and declared, "This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.' " 62 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 63 But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God."​

[Mat 26:62 NIV] 62 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?"​

[Lev 19:11 NIV] 11 " 'Do not steal. " 'Do not lie. " 'Do not deceive one another.​

"Do not deceive one another," but Jesus does both in and out of court. This is only one item, and many other examples of slight of speech completely undermines the force of an argument like the one in the OP. We cannot rely upon words. A Jew may not lie in court, but Jesus does. As I see it this does not end Christianity, but it does rewrite it. It is not a fundamentalist movement. It is not a replacement for the Jews, and it is not a substitute for the Jews.

May God bless those who work to renew the world in peace and goodwill.

Perhaps you have a misunderstanding. According to the scriptures, Jesus never sinned or lied or he could not be our perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world and would have needed to die for his own sins.

• Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin
• Hebrew 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and to them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin to salvation.
• 1 Peter 2:21-22 21, For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow his steps: 22, Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth.

The Greek word for "temple" is G3485 — ναός and means holy place or dwelling place of God. Jesus spoke to unbelievers in parables and the application of the use of the word temple when Jesus says "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up" was to His body and being killed and resurrected and brought back to life in three days. Perhaps you missed the context you left out of your last post quoting John. This application also defines the same meaning and the bibles application to Gods people also being the temple and dwelling place of God as shown below.

• John 2:19-21 19, Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20, Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and will you raise it up in three days? 21, But he spoke of the temple of his body.
• 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 16, Know you not that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17, If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
• 2 Corinthians 6:16 16, And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? for you are the temple of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Take Care.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Perhaps you have a misunderstanding.

Only I can have misunderstandings. I see some of your posts and how you expect all the scriptures to spin together like gears in a well oiled machine. I can see all the efforts you are making to get those gears to align and the compassionate attempts are impressive, yet these are not gears and do not spin together.

According to the scriptures, Jesus never sinned or lied

The three scriptures provided show that he lies. Someone then claims in another scripture that he never lies which is a contradiction, but it is not an evil contradiction. We should leave it at "Jesus is quoted as saying such and such" and judge for ourselves if what he is saying is good. We should not say "The bible says" or "Jesus says" or "God says."

According to the scriptures, Jesus never sinned or lied or he could not be our perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world and would have needed to die for his own sins.

[Heb 5:8-9 NIV] 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him​

Here in Hebrews it claims Jesus must learn obedience and become perfected through suffering and death. In other words he does die for his own sins, since it says he is perfected in death. This seems the likely origin of the trinity by-the-way. The human denies himself becoming divine and the first among many brothers. We also, if we would follow Jesus, must become nothing. It is really hard, but Jesus calls it easy. "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Matthew 11:30). That is not a lie, but it is turning the universe inside out to call the hardest thing easy.

Perhaps you have a misunderstanding. According to the scriptures, Jesus never sinned or lied or he could not be our perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world and would have needed to die for his own sins.

• Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin
• Hebrew 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and to them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin to salvation.
• 1 Peter 2:21-22 21, For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow his steps: 22, Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth.

This part of your post seems to point out the origin of the word 'Christian'. Each person is expected to deny themselves. This is the ideal which allows Jesus prayer in John 17 to (someday) be answered: that all of his disciples will be one as he and the Father are one. 1 Peter is particularly special, because he explains how converts ought to be made. It is not through talk but patient endurance. Many people read about preaching and "The foolishness of preaching" and somehow think it means that complex arguments and proofs lead to conversions.

The Greek word for "temple" is G3485 — ναός and means holy place or dwelling place of God. Jesus spoke to unbelievers in parables and the application of the use of the word temple when Jesus says "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up" was to His body and being killed and resurrected and brought back to life in three days. Perhaps you missed the context you left out of your last post quoting John. This application also defines the same meaning and the bibles application to Gods people also being the temple and dwelling place of God as shown below.

It is very possible for me to draw a wrong conclusion, but I have no control over you. Isn't that good? You can decide for yourself what is right. The scriptures are written such that they are not forceful. They are useful, but there is a reason that contradictions are built in purposely, that the genealogies do not match and that the fulfillments are not. It keeps me from having you as a pet and you from me. Just like if you say Jesus never lies, and I say "But here is an example of him doing so!" You have lost control, because the scriptures won't let you wield them with authority. This is purposeful I think.

• John 2:19-21 19, Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20, Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and will you raise it up in three days? 21, But he spoke of the temple of his body.
• 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 16, Know you not that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17, If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
• 2 Corinthians 6:16 16, And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? for you are the temple of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jesus says to the high priest, deceiving the high priest, that he can rebuild the temple. This is the place where the priest works. This is a deception, and Jesus plainly tells his disciples that Jesus does this frequently: speaking in parables to deceive. The principle is that Jesus can deceive you, too. If he can deceive Bobby he can deceive Amy. If I tell you I'm going to rob you, you'll report me to the police. When the police come to my door and I say "I meant I was going to rob 3rd's cheerful attitude!" they will arrest me. They will arrest me, because I said something to you.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Wrong, "God" is a translation of the Hebrew word Elohim, which is plural, not singular.

You have been corrected on this many times. It can be either singular or plural depending on the context. For example, if used in conjunction with verbs for third person singular, it is singular. Since you insist on making the same mistake after being informed, I can only conclude that you do not care about the truth.

 

[Ebionite]

Sorry dear friend I did not avoid anything

You are obviously avoiding talking about how your language "his words" relates to your "God".

 

[Phin]

There are many contradictions, including this idea that exists only in the NT that there is a spiritual Israel.

What is the Jewish understanding of Exodus 19: 5-6? This seems to say that only the children of Israel that obeyed God's voice and kept his covenant were considered God's chosen people.

Surely it is not assumed that all of the children of Israel did this, therefore doesn't the Torah actually teach that there are children of Israel and then a special subset of the children of Israel (spiritual Israel) that obeyed God's voice and kept his covenant?

Exodus
Chapter 19
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.