who or what created god

[Daviso452]

if i said that 1400 years ago Muhammed peace be upon him received a revelation that says the Universe is Expanding, wouldn't that mean God created the universe and that he knows how it works? logic is there, and the information is there, however, your lack of information and knowledge doesn't make you right and me wrong.

No? That ONLY means God knows how it works. Just because someone knows how something works does not mean they made it. It doesn't rule out the possibility, but it certainly does not mean they made it. For instance, I know how a mouse works. Does not mean I created it. And just because God knows how the universe works does not mean he created it either.

 

[Gharib]

No? That ONLY means God knows how it works. Just because someone knows how something works does not mean they made it. It doesn't rule out the possibility, but it certainly does not mean they made it. For instance, I know how a mouse works. Does not mean I created it. And just because God knows how the universe works does not mean he created it either.

But God says he created it, his prophets claim he created it, his creation testifies to him creating it. His knowledge testifies that he created it.

but if you don't want to accept that, then do you at least accept that God exists you said:

That ONLY means God knows how it works

if you look at history and those who claimed where Gods, you will find that none of them claimed to be the God of the sun, or the God of the moon, or the God of the universe. Allah claims that, he even says he will recreate us after our death. is it harder to create something for the first time or the second?

i don't know if you have read the story of Abraham peace be upon him?
he went to a ruler who claimed he was God, Abraham said to him God is he who gives life and takes it. So the king ordered a guard to kill one man and leave one alive, he said i too can do that.
Then Abraham peace be upon him said, Allah causes the sun to rise from the east to the west, if you are God make it rise from the west to the east.

at that statement he became enraged and wanted to kill Abraham. and if you consider asking, Allah has said that He will make the sun rise from the west. that event is one of the Major Sings prior to the Day of Judgement (the end of this life for everyone).

 

[Gharib]

sorry i was refering to creation

but logically, the word you speak so fondly of, nothing can come to exist without it being created.

that however, is different to saying that something with no beginning has no end and was not created. something without a starting point cannot possibly be created.

 

[payak]

religion cannot properly explain it, nor can science yet, so i wait for absolute proof rather then simply being told by people to have faith in what at the end of the day are strange stories.
but one of them must be right, in time i will see.

 

[Gharib]

religion cannot properly explain it, nor can science yet, so i wait for absolute proof rather then simply being told by people to have faith in what at the end of the day are strange stories.
but one of them must be right, in time i will see.

how is it a strange story that a man claims to be the prophet of God and receives revelation that the universe is expanding, and then 1400 years latter science discovers that. according to what you are saying no one should have been a muslim all that time because science was behind. that makes no sense and is very illogical.

 

[payak]

if i claimed to be a prophet, and predicted something about the future, as many people have done, even science fiction writers stories have come true.
would you base a religion around me.

he may well be a prophet, but that prediction proves nothing, so many predictions come true.

 

[Daviso452]

But God says he created it,

But if god does not exist, then that statement is void of value.

his prophets claim he created it,

I can claim to be a prophet of the Flying spaghetti monster, and I can also repeat what has been said in earlier texts

his creation testifies to him creating it.

What creation testifies to that? Humans? People who were raised into the faith, and whose opinion is likely biased by it?

His knowledge testifies that he created it

God's knowledge? Again, if God does not even exist then this is void of value.

if you look at history and those who claimed where Gods, you will find that none of them claimed to be the God of the sun, or the God of the moon, or the God of the universe.

Why does it matter? Why does being all three make this god any more believable than any other?
Oh, but here are links to several moon and sun gods/goddesses:
Solar deity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lunar deity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But these are, of course, polytheistic religions. Not a monotheistic like yours.

 

[Gharib]

if i claimed to be a prophet, and predicted something about the future, as many people have done, even science fiction writers stories have come true.
would you base a religion around me.

he may well be a prophet, but that prediction proves nothing, so many predictions come true.

many predictions have come true, it's not just one. that one which i mentioned was relevant to the topic we are discussing.

and it's not only predictions which if came true, make one a prophet. there are many other things.

if you wish to know more about the prophet-hood of Muhammed peace be upon him, then you can make a thread in the Islam DIR i will post information there for you. or even if you want to know about the prophet-hood of Jesus or Moses peace be upon them.

the prophets of God were distinguished from all other people so that they may be noticed by those who were truly seeking the truth as opposed to those who would deny the existence of God even if God appeared before them.

 

[Gharib]

But if god does not exist, then that statement is void of value.

I can claim to be a prophet of the Flying spaghetti monster, and I can also repeat what has been said in earlier texts

What creation testifies to that? Humans? People who were raised into the faith, and whose opinion is likely biased by it?

God's knowledge? Again, if God does not even exist then this is void of value.

so do you accept that the God which Muhammed spoke of exists from the fact that he revealed that the universe is expanding? no one knew of that fact until a couple of hundred years ago, if even that.

[/QUOTE]Why does it matter? Why does being all three make this god any more believable than any other?
Oh, but here are links to several moon and sun gods/goddesses:
Solar deity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lunar deity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But these are, of course, polytheistic religions. Not a monotheistic like yours.[/QUOTE]

you have misunderstood my post, i didn't say that Allah claimed he is the Moon God or the Sun God, i said he is the God of the sun and of the Moon. there is a big difference between being the moon God and being the God (owner, creator) of the Moon.

 

[payak]

why send a prophet, why not just send himself, or just magically make us believe.

 

[Gharib]

Why must something be created to exist? If the universe was not created, isn't that mean that you are wrong?

does the universe have a beginning? Yes. so how can i be wrong?

haven't scientists said that the universe came to exist some 13 billion years ago, ie. it started expanding?

even if you believe that something can come to existence (have a starting point) without it having been created which would put God out of the picture, then how did Muhammed peace be upon him know the universe is/was expanding?

 

[Daviso452]

how is it a strange story that a man claims to be the prophet of God and receives revelation that the universe is expanding, and then 1400 years latter science discovers that. according to what you are saying no one should have been a muslim all that time because science was behind. that makes no sense and is very illogical.

Actually, no. Just because he was right does not make the religion any more valid. The prophet had nothing to back up his claim. A claim without support is just another dumb idea, which that was for a while. In the end, it was right, but that was brought on through scientific means, not religious.

 

[payak]

A god of such power could surely right a text more convincing.
yet still so many read it and dont believe, surely god with all his power would not fail as a writer of his revelations.
yet the fact that people still do not believe would show that the perfect god failed when he revealed in his writings.

 

[Daviso452]

does the universe have a beginning? Yes. so how can i be wrong?

haven't scientists said that the universe came to exist some 13 billion years ago, ie. it started expanding?

even if you believe that something can come to existence (have a starting point) without it having been created which would put God out of the picture, then how did Muhammed peace be upon him know the universe is/was expanding?

Please excuse that rage that i have just erased.

No, the big bang happened 13 billion years ago. Not the beginning of the universe as a whole. Prior to that, all we know is that the universe was a singularity, but we do not know the events leading up to or the cause of the big bang.

 

[Daviso452]

so do you accept that the God which Muhammed spoke of exists from the fact that he revealed that the universe is expanding? no one knew of that fact until a couple of hundred years ago, if even that.

Does not make it any more valid. All that means is either he got lucky or some outside force told it to him. Does that mean it was god? No, because if you consider God a possibility then you must give aliens equal ground.

 

[payak]

if god exists, he is simply another species with different abilitys.

 

[Daviso452]

if god exists, he is simply another species with different abilitys.

Possibly.

 

[Gharib]

why send a prophet, why not just send himself, or just magically make us believe.

it is logical to choose someone from among ourselves as a prophet than to send a different being or for example to make a dog a prophet, would anyone focus on the message of a talking dog or on the abnormal nature of a talking dog?

Moses peace be upon him asked Allah to show himself so he could see him, the mountain on which he said he would appear collapsed and turned to ruble. Moses himself fainted. one of the attributes of Allah is that he is the source of Light, he logically is brighter than the sun, (the power station where we get electricity has more energy than any home because that is the source). i will make you a challenge, look at the sun for over a minute without loosing your sight or being affected without the aid of anything protective to the eyes. if you cannot do that, then how will you possibly view Allah if he appeared?

and lastly, if he made us magically believe then life could not be a test because we would have our free will taken away since we all magically believe. and that nullifies the the the need to test us on earth and should all be put into heaven.

 

[payak]

you have animals, man and god, species of differant kinds.

canyons, rivers, planets, universes, heaven and hell, places of differant kinds.

just all species and places in nature

 

[Gharib]

i will reply latter to the rest, i have to go.