Who Or What Is Israel?

[dybmh]

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.


The Penalty for Israelite Rebellion Against the Law of Moses is Death, therefore, an Atheist or Apostate does Not Exist in Israel. This is the teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Nope. That's a physical death. The verses I brought are eternal always and forever.

 

[Ebionite]

This appears to be a good Wikipedia article on the Karaites.


Karaite Judaism

Karaite Judaism (/ˈkɛərə.aɪt/) or Karaism (/ˈkɛərə.ɪzəm/, sometimes spelt Karaitism (/ˈkɛərə.ɪtɪzəm/; Hebrew: יהדות קראית Yahadut Qara'it); also spelt Qaraite Judaism, Qaraism or Qaraitism)[a] is a Jewish religious movement characterized by the recognition of the written Tanakh alone as its supreme authority in halakha (Jewish religious law) and theology.[11] Karaites believe that all of the divine commandments which were handed down to Moses by God were recorded in the written Torah without any additional Oral Law or explanation. Unlike mainstream Rabbinic Judaism, which regards the Oral Torah, codified in the Talmud and subsequent works, as authoritative interpretations of the Torah, Karaite Jews do not treat the written collections of the oral tradition in the Midrash or the Talmud as binding.

Karaite Judaism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sorry but Wikipedia isn't reliable. It's probably fair to say that the oral tradition of the Karaites is less onerous than that of the Rabbis though.

 

[Ebionite]

The Penalty for Israelite Rebellion Against the Law of Moses is Death, therefore, an Atheist or Apostate does Not Exist in Israel. This is the teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures.

That's about the people of Israel, not the Zionist state which is called Israel.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That's about the people of Israel, not the Zionist state which is called Israel.

He knows. He has been deliberately trying to confuse the discussion.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

This appears to be a good Wikipedia article on the Karaites.


Karaite Judaism

Karaite Judaism (/ˈkɛərə.aɪt/) or Karaism (/ˈkɛərə.ɪzəm/, sometimes spelt Karaitism (/ˈkɛərə.ɪtɪzəm/; Hebrew: יהדות קראית Yahadut Qara'it); also spelt Qaraite Judaism, Qaraism or Qaraitism)[a] is a Jewish religious movement characterized by the recognition of the written Tanakh alone as its supreme authority in halakha (Jewish religious law) and theology.[11] Karaites believe that all of the divine commandments which were handed down to Moses by God were recorded in the written Torah without any additional Oral Law or explanation. Unlike mainstream Rabbinic Judaism, which regards the Oral Torah, codified in the Talmud and subsequent works, as authoritative interpretations of the Torah, Karaite Jews do not treat the written collections of the oral tradition in the Midrash or the Talmud as binding.

Karaite Judaism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I love Wikipedia. But from time to time it makes mistakes. Although the Karaite movement was by Jews, it is not a form of Judaism. And it pretty much died out anyhow, you really only get a very few Jews today that try to resurrect the movement. All forms of Judaism hold the Oral Torah (Talmud) in esteem.

 

[DNB]

Good grief. Do you know how to look these things up?

ויקרא משה אל־מישאל ואל אלצפן בני עזיאל דד אהרן ויאמר אלהם קרבו שאו את־אחיכם מאת פני־הקדש אל־מחוץ למחנה׃​

​

And Moses called Mishael and Elzaphan, the sons of Uzziel the uncle of Aaron, and said to them, Come near, carry your brothers from before the sanctuary out of the camp.​

They're still in the House of Jacob ( Israel ).



No. They are still in the House of Jacob. They just happen to deceased. See above. They are still their brothers.

Ok, Nadab & Abihu may have extenuating grounds as to the extent of their annihilation, but you are missing the point again. You should be able to see where I'm going with this i.e. you selectively only addressed one example out of the few that I gave in order to refute my point - and that being the least egregious. But take Korah, for example, or those who worshipped Aaron's golden calf in the wilderness - this is enough to cut them off from God's people. And if that's still not unequivocal enough for you, we can make an appeal to King Jeroboam who caused all of Israel to commit blasphemy and idolatry, or King Manasseh who precipitated Judah's deportation to Babylon. Again, you should be able to see where I'm going with this.

 

[dybmh]

Ok, Nadab & Abihu may have extenuating grounds as to the extent of their annihilation, but you are missing the point again. You should be able to see where I'm going with this i.e. you selectively only addressed one example out of the few that I gave in order to refute my point - and that being the least egregious. But take Korah, for example, or those who worshipped Aaron's golden calf in the wilderness - this is enough to cut them off from God's people. And if that's still not unequivocal enough for you, we can make an appeal to King Jeroboam who caused all of Israel to commit blasphemy and idolatry, or King Manasseh who precipitated Judah's deportation to Babylon. Again, you should be able to see where I'm going with this.

"you should be able to see where I'm going with this"

I do see where you are going with this. It is adding to the law in an attempt to steal the name Israel and claim it for Chrstians.

These examples you have brought are physical deaths; they change nothing. As I said to @Elihoenai, if ya'all had scripture to back this up, it would have been brought already. I've had this debate before with some extremely knowledgable, capable, resourceful, motivated Christians and they couldn't bring anything either.

 

[Ebionite]

All forms of Judaism hold the Oral Torah (Talmud) in esteem

The traditions of the Pharisees were condemned in the gospels because they made the Torah a burden. Rabbinical Judaism is just modern Pharasaism.

 

[G.o.design]

Genesis 32:28

28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.



Does Genetics Only Determine Who Israel Is?

Do you Beleive that there is a Spiritual Israel?

Do you agree that Elohim/God has Ordained Spiritual Israel and Fleshly Israel?

What does it mean to have the Israeli Trait of Power With Elohim/God and With Men?​

Bloodline is important the bible made that clear by listing genealogy and years of they life somewhere along the line humans stopped honoring genealogy and our ancestors lessons was lost. Trace Jacob genealogy you will find he was the bloodline of seth the offspring of adam of the lord and eve of the morning his bloodline belong to the god that created man in the garden his blood was the purest at that time so he was choosen to be the lords people so taken from god his name changed from jacob to Israel.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The traditions of the Pharisees were condemned in the gospels

Hold on there! Consider the following:

1. In Matthew 23:1-3 Jesus instructs his followers to do and observe everything that the Pharisees teach -- everything includes Oral Torah.
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you

2. In Matthew 23:23 Jesus instructs the Pharisees to first observe the foundations of the Torah, but then to ALSO observe the Oral Torah (spice tax).
23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

3. In the passage of Matthew 15 about the washing of hands, the Pharisees criticize Jesus' disciples for not washing their hands. Notice they do NOT criticize Jesus, meaning that Jesus DID wash his hands. It is a clear case of Jesus observing Oral Torah.
1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”

because they made the Torah a burden.

Jesus was Pharisee school of Hillel, and argued with the Pharisees in the school of Shammai. It is quite true that Shammai was incredibly strict. Hillel, on the other hand, went out of his way to make keeping the Law easier. Jesus' remark that "you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry" MUST be understood within the context of the debate between the two Pharisaical schools.

 

[DNB]

"you should be able to see where I'm going with this"

I do see where you are going with this. It is adding to the law in an attempt to steal the name Israel and claim it for Chrstians.

These examples you have brought are physical deaths; they change nothing. As I said to @Elihoenai, if ya'all had scripture to back this up, it would have been brought already. I've had this debate before with some extremely knowledgable, capable, resourceful, motivated Christians and they couldn't bring anything either.

Not every circumstance or situation is addressed in Scripture, obviously. Although this being an extremely significant one, one might expect a few didactic statements on the subject, but is it not enough to say that God does not want those that hate Him in His kingdom - why are we arguing about this. Even a Christian does not have his salvation procured until Judgment Day, including myself.

And, I have absolutely no idea what you mean by Christians trying to steal the name of Israel - I do not, by any stretch of the imagination, subscribe to Replacement Theology, at all. Jesus was a Jew, as were all the first Apostles and Disciples of Christ. Israel is still God's first-born in one sense, and they will be honoured accordingly after the resurrection.

There is enough room in God's Kingdom for both Jews, and them first, then Gentiles.

 

[Ebionite]

Jesus was Pharisee school of Hillel

What's your source for that?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What's your source for that?

Rabbi Harvey Falk, in his book "Jesus the Pharisee: A New Look at the Jewishness of Jesus", analyzes the teachings of Jesus and shows how (with the exception of his teaching on divorce) they line up with the Pharisaical school of Hillel. One of the best books I've ever read.

https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Pharisee-New-Look-Jewishness/dp/1592443133

​

 

[Elihoenai]

Most Christian denominations repudiated Supersessionism after WW2 when they saw how it contributed to the holocaust. Not all, but they're getting there.

Ephesians 2:12-13

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.


Yes, Certainly, there is Spiritual Israel and Fleshly Israel. Through Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ Christians become Spiritual Israel.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Ephesians 2:12-13

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.


Yes, Certainly, there is Spiritual Israel and Fleshly Israel. Through Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ Christians become Spiritual Israel.

Nope. Nothing in the Tanakh about any spiritual Israel. I'm not really concerned with what your New TEstament says.

 

[Elihoenai]

It really has nothing to do with dogmatism. I'm actually fine with non-Jews having their own religions. No one NEEDS to become a Jew.

I'm simply pointing out that every group has the right to define itself. Outsiders don't get to make those determinations.

I am saying that the "Once a Jew, always a Jew" comes from the totality of Halakah. It is a second point to remind you that Jews are not sola scriptura, and it is a huge mistake for you to assume we think like Protestants. There is no Torah without Oral Torah.

I Am in Total Agreement with Every Group having the Right to Define Itself. Elohim/God Created All the Religious Groups. Dogmatism is a Requirement for Serious Religious Practitioners and Being called Dogmatic is a Compliment. Those that have Absolute Certainty of their Religious Convictions are Dogmatic. I Am Dogmatic.


dogmatic

If you are dogmatic, you are certain that you are right and that everyone else is wrong.

dogmatic

1. If you are dogmatic, you are certain that you are right and that everyone…

dictionary.cambridge.org

 

[Elihoenai]

What an odd thing to say. It has no relationship to supersessionism.

Not talking about Supersessionism in that post. Showing that in the Hebrew Scriptures that an Atheist Jew or Apostate Jew does Not Exist in Israel. In the Hebrew Scriptures Elohim/God Commands Israelite Rebels Against the Law of Moses be put to Death.

 

[Elihoenai]

You wrote: "Christians Being Spiritual Israel is the teaching of the Holy Scriptures/Bible"

1) If you word-of-God scripture you would have posted it already
2) If there is a "teaching" about IT, that is encouaging cheating and theft

You wrote: "Any Jew that Converts to Christianity has been Ordained by Elohim/God."

Show me scripture that says that. There is no "Elohim" in Christian scripture.

Everything that happens is the Will of Elohim/God and Ordained by Elohim/God. Therefore, any Jew that Converts to Christianity is the Will of Elohim/God and Ordained by Elohim/God. In the same way any Christian that Converts to Judaism is the Will of Elohim/God and Ordained by Elohim/God.

" ... a Chrstian Theological Doctrine ... " <--- Man made doctrine. Not the word-of-God. Wishful thinking. Jealousy. Theft. Corruption.

That is your perspective from the Lens of Judaism.

MUST? Again. You are a gnostic? Gnostic means "Knower". You don't know what you don't know. The word "Must" is always false for a gnostic.

Your opinion = 0% credibility.

You don't Know what I know because you are not Christian Gnostic. Every Religious person on these forums are giving their Religious Perspectives. Those that Adhere to one particular Truth Assert that the others are teaching merely from their own Personal Opinions having no Credibility from the View of the Truth Holder. Everybody knows that people Interpret the Holy Scriptures/Bible differently from one another.

 

[Elihoenai]

Nope. That's a physical death. The verses I brought are eternal always and forever.

Do you mean that after an Israelite Rebel has physically died they are still an Israelite?

 

[Elihoenai]

That's about the people of Israel, not the Zionist state which is called Israel.

Don't you Believe that the People of the State of Israel are the Real People of Israel?