Who Or What Is Israel?

[Elihoenai]

I love Wikipedia. But from time to time it makes mistakes. Although the Karaite movement was by Jews, it is not a form of Judaism. And it pretty much died out anyhow, you really only get a very few Jews today that try to resurrect the movement. All forms of Judaism hold the Oral Torah (Talmud) in esteem.

Yes, Wikipedia is a Great Resources and you have the links to get further info elsewhere. I make voluntary contributions yearly to Wikipedia, as they are Voluntarily and Not Commercially maintained.


Karaite Jews Practice Karaite Judaism. Therefore, the Wikipedia article is correct.


The Official website of World Karaite Judaism (WKJ)


About Karaic Judaism

"...Introduction

In contemporary Judaism there are many approaches and currents, Judaism has never been uniform, one and homogeneous. Different opinions and interpretations have always existed in Judaism. Since the end of prophecy and the sword of the temple, various movements, classes, parties, courts, and factions have risen and risen. Most of them try, in one way or another, to bring something "Jewish" on their behalf, to revive Judaism and make the Jewish existence in exile a sustainable existence.

What is Karaic Judaism?

Karaite Judaism, as it is called, is based on the Bible, and on the desire to observe the laws of the Torah, according to the Holy Torah given to Moses, peace be upon him, at Mount Sinai, and according to the other words of the prophets that God sent to the people of Israel. In this way, the Bible, the word of God, is the only source of religious authority for the people of Israel...."

מבוא | היהדות הקראית העולמית

www.karaite.org.il

 

[Elihoenai]

Bloodline is important the bible made that clear by listing genealogy and years of they life somewhere along the line humans stopped honoring genealogy and our ancestors lessons was lost. Trace Jacob genealogy you will find he was the bloodline of seth the offspring of adam of the lord and eve of the morning his bloodline belong to the god that created man in the garden his blood was the purest at that time so he was choosen to be the lords people so taken from god his name changed from jacob to Israel.

1 John 1:7

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


Deuteronomy 7:2-3

2 And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.



Yes, Certainly, Bloodline is Critical. Spiritual Israel Purifies the Bloodline by Accepting the Blood of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ while Fleshly Israel keeps their Bloodline Pure by Not Marrying anybody Outside of Israel.

 

[Elihoenai]

Questions to Practitioners of Judaism in this thread and to other members:

Have you seen the film The Jazz Singer? If yes, what is your view on the film? There is also some good music in the film from my perspective.

The Jazz Singer (1980) Trailer

 

[dybmh]

Everything that happens is the Will of Elohim/God and Ordained by Elohim/God. Therefore, any Jew that Converts to Christianity is the Will of Elohim/God and Ordained by Elohim/God. In the same way any Christian that Converts to Judaism is the Will of Elohim/God and Ordained by Elohim/God.

The will of God is that each individual is given a choice. That doesn't mean that both choices are suddenly good.

I asked for scripture, you brought none.

Deut 30:19

​

העדתי בכם היום את־השמים ואת־הארץ החיים והמות נתתי לפניך הברכה והקללה ובחרת בחיים למען תחיה אתה וזרעך׃​

​

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live;​

For a Jewish person, turning away from Christianity is choosing life.

That is your perspective from the Lens of Judaism.

If you had scripture to prove this fraud of "spiritual Israel" you would have brought it already. Instead you are claiming Christian doctrine. Without scripture it is man made rubbish.

You don't Know what I know because you are not Christian Gnostic. Every Religious person on these forums are giving their Religious Perspectives. Those that Adhere to one particular Truth Assert that the others are teaching merely from their own Personal Opinions having no Credibility from the View of the Truth Holder. Everybody knows that people Interpret the Holy Scriptures/Bible differently from one another.

Blah-blah-blah. You can't bring scripture to support it, then I happily ignore it. You've been wrong repeatedly. For all I know you are possessed by demons who whisper incomplete truth into your ears, but omit the facts that prove them wrong. And all of this is easily accomplshed because your desire for "power" is a lever that can be used to manipulate you.

What does it mean to have the Israeli Trait of Power With Elohim/God and With Men?

There it is. . The "Trait of Power". Capital "T" Capital "P". This is what you desire, isn't it?

 

[dybmh]

Do you mean that after an Israelite Rebel has physically died they are still an Israelite?

Ultimately, it's up to God to decide, but, based on what is written, yes. They will always be Israel. They have always been Israel; they will always be Israel. From the very first moment that their identity was conceived in the divine intellect they were Israel. Nothing changes that. If that were to change, then they would be a different soul, and a different being. Since God is eternal, then there is no "first" moment in the divine intellect. There is no "last" moment. Nothing changes for the eternal. The status as Israel is eternal.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes, Wikipedia is a Great Resources and you have the links to get further info elsewhere. I make voluntary contributions yearly to Wikipedia, as they are Voluntarily and Not Commercially maintained.


Karaite Jews Practice Karaite Judaism. Therefore, the Wikipedia article is correct.


The Official website of World Karaite Judaism (WKJ)


About Karaic Judaism

"...Introduction

In contemporary Judaism there are many approaches and currents, Judaism has never been uniform, one and homogeneous. Different opinions and interpretations have always existed in Judaism. Since the end of prophecy and the sword of the temple, various movements, classes, parties, courts, and factions have risen and risen. Most of them try, in one way or another, to bring something "Jewish" on their behalf, to revive Judaism and make the Jewish existence in exile a sustainable existence.

What is Karaic Judaism?

Karaite Judaism, as it is called, is based on the Bible, and on the desire to observe the laws of the Torah, according to the Holy Torah given to Moses, peace be upon him, at Mount Sinai, and according to the other words of the prophets that God sent to the people of Israel. In this way, the Bible, the word of God, is the only source of religious authority for the people of Israel...."

מבוא | היהדות הקראית העולמית

www.karaite.org.il

You think quoting from a Karaite website proves anything? They are not the only people to falsely be claiming to be a Judaism. If you go to Messianic Jewish sites, they also claim to be Judaism, when in fact they are Chrsitianity.

I'm moving on. I've explained things to you. You seem to already have your mind made up. If you want to reply, its fine, but I won't be answering further.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Not talking about Supersessionism in that post. Showing that in the Hebrew Scriptures that an Atheist Jew or Apostate Jew does Not Exist in Israel. In the Hebrew Scriptures Elohim/God Commands Israelite Rebels Against the Law of Moses be put to Death.

Your verse doesn't speak of Atheists either. Its about the rebellious son.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I Am in Total Agreement with Every Group having the Right to Define Itself. Elohim/God Created All the Religious Groups. Dogmatism is a Requirement for Serious Religious Practitioners and Being called Dogmatic is a Compliment. Those that have Absolute Certainty of their Religious Convictions are Dogmatic. I Am Dogmatic.


dogmatic

If you are dogmatic, you are certain that you are right and that everyone else is wrong.

dogmatic

1. If you are dogmatic, you are certain that you are right and that everyone…

dictionary.cambridge.org

I am not.

 

[dybmh]

Ephesians 2:12-13

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.


Yes, Certainly, there is Spiritual Israel and Fleshly Israel. Through Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ Christians become Spiritual Israel.

"Certainly, there is Spiritual Israel and Fleshly Israel." <---- This quote from Ephesians is not word of God prophecy. A 3rd party cannot intercede into a covenant made by the Lord God, the Most High.

This is man-made opinion and identity theft.

"scholars have claimed the letter is actually Deutero-Pauline, meaning that it is pseudepigrapha written in Paul's name by a later author strongly influenced by Paul's thought"

"if Paul is regarded as the author, the impersonal character of the letter, which lacks personal greetings or any indication that the author has personal knowledge of his recipients, is incongruous with the account in Acts of Paul staying more than two years in Ephesus."

Epistle to the Ephesians - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Elihoenai]

Nope. Nothing in the Tanakh about any spiritual Israel. I'm not really concerned with what your New TEstament says.

I know you are not concerned about what is written in the New Testament. Showing you why for Christians there is Spiritual Israel. The teaching of Spiritual Israel is taught in the New Testament and the Holy Book of Christians is the Holy Scriptures/Bible from Genesis to Revelation. *Staff Edit*

 

[Elihoenai]

The will of God is that each individual is given a choice. That doesn't mean that both choices are suddenly good.

I asked for scripture, you brought none.

Deut 30:19

​

העדתי בכם היום את־השמים ואת־הארץ החיים והמות נתתי לפניך הברכה והקללה ובחרת בחיים למען תחיה אתה וזרעך׃​

​

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live;​

For a Jewish person, turning away from Christianity is choosing life.

Isaiah 45:7

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

That's correct. Elohim/God is both Good and Evil. Elohim/God is All Things That Exists. Elohim/God has given Man the choice between the Good Side of Elohim/God and the Evil Side of Elohim/Good. For a Christian person, turning away from Judaism is choosing life.

If you had scripture to prove this fraud of "spiritual Israel" you would have brought it already. Instead you are claiming Christian doctrine. Without scripture it is man made rubbish.

Romans 2:28-29

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Ephesians 2:12-13

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.


I have already provided Holy Scriptures from the New Testament. These Holy Scriptures I provide again above.

Blah-blah-blah. You can't bring scripture to support it, then I happily ignore it. You've been wrong repeatedly. For all I know you are possessed by demons who whisper incomplete truth into your ears, but omit the facts that prove them wrong. And all of this is easily accomplshed because your desire for "power" is a lever that can be used to manipulate you.

That's correct, Either you or me is Possessed by Demons. I will let the reader decide for themselves who they view as Demon Possessed.

There it is. . The "Trait of Power". Capital "T" Capital "P". This is what you desire, isn't it?

John 1:12

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


You are Absolutely Correct. I Want Power! Power! Power! I want Power to Become the Son of Elohim/God.

 

[Elihoenai]

Ultimately, it's up to God to decide, but, based on what is written, yes. They will always be Israel. They have always been Israel; they will always be Israel. From the very first moment that their identity was conceived in the divine intellect they were Israel. Nothing changes that. If that were to change, then they would be a different soul, and a different being. Since God is eternal, then there is no "first" moment in the divine intellect. There is no "last" moment. Nothing changes for the eternal. The status as Israel is eternal.

Don't you believe that an Atheist or Apostate that is living a life Totally Contrary to Judaism becomes a Different Soul/Being From Israel?

 

[Elihoenai]

You think quoting from a Karaite website proves anything? They are not the only people to falsely be claiming to be a Judaism. If you go to Messianic Jewish sites, they also claim to be Judaism, when in fact they are Chrsitianity.

I'm moving on. I've explained things to you. You seem to already have your mind made up. If you want to reply, its fine, but I won't be answering further.

Therefore, the Realm of Judaism is like the Realm of Christianity with the different groups making claims of Authenticity. I prefer Karaite Judaism because their only source of Authority is the Hebrew Scriptures.

 

[Elihoenai]

Your verse doesn't speak of Atheists either. Its about the rebellious son.

Exactly! A Rebellious Son is Not Allowed to become an Atheist or Apostate in the Hebrew Scriptures. They are put to death before that happens in the Hebrew Scriptures.

 

[Elihoenai]

I am not.

Readers might disagree with this. You Believe that your Judaic Religious practices is Right and that the other Religious Practitioners are Wrong, otherwise you wouldn't be practicing the Religion that you practice. People do what they believe to be Right.

 

[Elihoenai]

"Certainly, there is Spiritual Israel and Fleshly Israel." <---- This quote from Ephesians is not word of God prophecy. A 3rd party cannot intercede into a covenant made by the Lord God, the Most High.

This is man-made opinion and identity theft.

"scholars have claimed the letter is actually Deutero-Pauline, meaning that it is pseudepigrapha written in Paul's name by a later author strongly influenced by Paul's thought"

"if Paul is regarded as the author, the impersonal character of the letter, which lacks personal greetings or any indication that the author has personal knowledge of his recipients, is incongruous with the account in Acts of Paul staying more than two years in Ephesus."

Epistle to the Ephesians - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The book of Ephesians is for Christians. You don't accept Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ and the teachings of the New Testament, otherwise you would be a Christian. Being a Practitioner of Judaism, you have a Bias of Believing that the Book of Ephesians is false.

Being a Scholar does Not provide the required Qualifications to Understand the book of Ephesians. Having an Oxbridge or Harvard Degree does Not help in any way to understand the Holy Scriptures/Bible. In fact, having an Oxbridge or Harvard Degree makes you Bind and Deaf to the True teachings the Holy Scriptures/Bible.

 

[dybmh]

Isaiah 45:7

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

That's correct. Elohim/God is both Good and Evil. Elohim/God is All Things That Exists. Elohim/God has given Man the choice between the Good Side of Elohim/God and the Evil Side of Elohim/Good. For a Christian person, turning away from Judaism is choosing life.

"Elohim/God is both Good and Evil." -

Evil is a created and cursed. That's why the verse says "I set before you a blessing and a curse". The Lord God, The Most High is not evil. When It says I the Lord do all these things it is 3 things: creating, forming, and making.

"Elohim/God has given Man the choice between the Good Side of Elohim/God and the Evil Side of Elohim/Good" - Nope. There is no "evil side" to God. That's just a gnostic fantasy.

"For a Christian person, turning away from Judaism is choosing life." - There's still no spiritual Israel. What a Christian chooses to do has no impact on that.

Romans 2:28-29

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

If it's not word of God, it's invalid. A human cannot intercede and make changes to God's covenant.

Ephesians 2:12-13

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

If it's not word of God, it's invalid. A Christian humman cannot intercede and make changes to God's covenant.

And this one is even worse, because it's likely it wasn't even written by an apostle.

I have already provided Holy Scriptures from the New Testament. These Holy Scriptures I provide again above.

They have ZERO authority. You can imagine that they are Holy all you like.

That's correct, Either you or me is Possessed by Demons. I will let the reader decide for themselves who they view as Demon Possessed.

If you desire Power and have no problem with false testimony, then, I'm looking at you thinking, something's wrong here.

John 1:12

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

You are Absolutely Correct. I Want Power! Power! Power! I want Power to Become the Son of Elohim/God.

Bingo dude. That's a demon right there. The desire for power will corrupt a person and cause them to do wacky stuff like identity theft. and worse. This desire for power is not uncommon for gnostics. I understand, and I'm not judging you as a bad person. But, naturally you're going to twist things around in the pursuit for this power.

 

[dybmh]

Don't you believe that an Atheist or Apostate that is living a life Totally Contrary to Judaism becomes a Different Soul/Being From Israel?

No! Somethings can never be changed by human beings. I will always be a child of my parents, (father's name & mother's name). It doesn't matter if I change my name, it doesn't matter if I'm adopted, it doesn't matter if my parents disown me. None of that changes who I am at that fundemental level. It doesn't change it for anyone.

Since you are imaging magical powers coming with the name Israel, this is not going to make sense to you. But those promises of magical powers in the Chrstian bible are snake-oil. Do you understand what thse words mean? Snake-oil.

The "Trait of Power" is granted to each and every human being. Everyone! But a Christian missionary is going to promise it Christians as if it's something special that only they can have as a recruitment tool.

The book of Ephesians is for Christians. You don't accept Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ and the teachings of the New Testament, otherwise you would be a Christian. Being a Practitioner of Judaism, you have a Bias of Believing that the Book of Ephesians is false.

If it was written by "Paul the apostle" it would be written differently. You have an extreme bias to believe it because you desire the imagined "Trait of Power" that comes from becoming B'nei Elohim which is further imagined coming from Israel. Bro, each and every human being is B'nei Elohim ALREADY. It's not special at all.

Being a Scholar does Not provide the required Qualifications to Understand the book of Ephesians. Having an Oxbridge or Harvard Degree does Not help in any way to understand the Holy Scriptures/Bible. In fact, having an Oxbridge or Harvard Degree makes you Bind and Deaf to the True teachings the Holy Scriptures/Bible.

It doesn't take any credentials at all to see that it doesn't match up.

But none of that matters because: You don't need to be Israel to have this Trait of Power. You don't even need to be a Christian. You don't even need to be a Theist. All of that is imaginary.

And.

No human can intercede and make changes to a covenant of God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Readers might disagree with this. You Believe that your Judaic Religious practices is Right and that the other Religious Practitioners are Wrong, otherwise you wouldn't be practicing the Religion that you practice. People do what they believe to be Right.

I practice Judaism first, because I do indeed believe in one Creator God who cares about how we treat each other. But also because I am a Jew, and Judaism is the religion of my people.

But Judaism doesn't teach that everyone needs to be a Jew. Other peoples can worship God in their own way, and I am fine with it. As the website Jews for Judaism says, "Believing Judaism is true does not mean negating other spiritual paths. Judaism teaches that while Judaism is the way for Jews, it is not for everyone. "

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Exactly! A Rebellious Son is Not Allowed to become an Atheist or Apostate in the Hebrew Scriptures. They are put to death before that happens in the Hebrew Scriptures.

It doesn't say anything about atheism or apostasy. You are literally inserting stuff into the text that is not there. This passage does not support your point.

Here is the passage for your reference.
"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, that will not hearken to the voice of his father and [not "or"] the voice of his mother and though they chasten him, will not hearken unto them, then shall his father and his mother lay hold of him and bring him out unto the elders of his city… They shall say unto the elders of his city: This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he doth not hearken to our voice, he is a glutton and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones that he die; so shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee; and all Israel shall hear, and fear" (Deut. 21:18–21).