Who Or What Is Israel?

[Elihoenai]

Since this essentially agrees with what I said, that Jew refers to the Kingdom of Judah, not to the tribe of Judah, I'm not sure why you felt the need to supply it.

It's for the benefit of other readers to get more info.

What I said was that the very few people who are into British Israelism are racists. They believe in the superiority of the English people. By promoting this myth that the English are the ten lost tribes of Israel, they are presenting the English as special and chosen. And not chosen in the way that Jews are chosen (meaning chosen for increased responsibilities), but chosen in a way that makes them exceptional and superior (which Jews do not claim). This idea that the English are superior to other peoples is clearly racist.

Furthermore, British Israelism goes out of its way to distinguish Israelites from Jews, and most versions (especially that which became common in America) were highly antisemitic, holding to the two seedline theory. The two seedline theory basically teaches that the children of Eve had two different fathers, Abel being the son of Adam, and Cain being the son of the serpent. Jews are believed to be the descendants of the union between Eve and the serpent.

In modern times, British Israelism finds a home among two groups: white supremacist/Christian identity groups and the Hebrew Roots movement (which teaches the Two House doctrine). If you would like a discussion about the Hebrew Roots movement, we can do that, just let me know.

I suppose hypothetically you could have a rare person who believes that the English are the ten lost tribes, but who also rejects ethnic superiority of British Israelism. I am not sure what you would call such a person.

The English has proved Racial Superiority with the British Empire and the Domination of United States. The English/Germans have the Greatest Worldly Power. These are facts that you don't reject from a Realist perspective.


White Anglo-Saxon Protestants

In the United States, White Anglo-Saxon Protestants or WASPs is a sociological term which is often used to describe white Protestant Americans who are generally part of the white dominant culture or upper-class and historically often the Mainline Protestant elite.[2][3] Historically or most consistently, WASPS are of British descent, though the definition of WASP varies in this respect.[4] WASPs have dominated American society, culture, and politics for most of the history of the United States. Critics have disparaged them as "The Establishment".

White Anglo-Saxon Protestants - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

We can discuss the Hebrew Roots movement. What do you want to talk about first regarding Hebrew Roots?

 

[Elihoenai]

Yes, no different from a born Jew. I think I already wrote you a post explaining how an Apostate, although technically still a Jew, loses all their rights as a Jew. An atheist Jew is not apostate, but is a heretic.

Is the teaching that you can be an Atheist or Apostate and still remain a Jew in the Hebrew Scriptures?

 

[Elihoenai]

If you would like to understand a functional difference that distinguishes a "Jew" please compare the attitudes, values and principles coming from the Kingdom of Judah, compared with the Kingdom of Israel.

Then consider that Jesus came from the attitudes, values, and principles of the Kingdom of Israel, not Judah. Done. Case closed. He literally came from gallilee one of the most syncretic hellenistic cities in the Kingdom.

What do you see as the Fundamental difference in Worldview between the Kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel?

 

[Elihoenai]

No, goyim is about numerosity.

Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations[goyim] have I made thee.
Genesis 17:5

Goy

In modern Hebrew and Yiddish goy (/ɡɔɪ/; גוי‎, pl: goyim /ˈɡɔɪ.ɪm/, גוים‎ or גויים‎) is a term for a gentile, a non-Jew.[2] Through Yiddish,[3] the word has been adopted into English (pl: goyim or goys) also to mean "gentile", sometimes in a pejorative sense.[4][5][6] As a word principally used by Jews to describe non-Jews,[5] it is a term for the ethnic out-group.[7]

The Biblical Hebrew word goy has been commonly translated into English as nation,[8][9] meaning a group of persons of the same ethnic family who speak the same language (rather than the modern meaning of a political unit).[10] In the Bible, goy is used to describe both the Nation of Israel and other nations.

The meaning of the word goy in Hebrew evolved to mean "non-Jew" in the Hellenistic (300BC to 30BC) and Roman periods, as both Rabbinical texts and then Christian theology placed increasing emphasis on a binary division between Jews and non-Jews.

In modern usage in English, the extent to which goy is derogatory is a point of discussion in the Jewish community.

The word "goy" is sometimes used by white supremacists to refer to themselves when signalling a belief in conspiracy theories about Jews.

Goy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Ebionite]

Goy

In modern Hebrew and Yiddish goy (/ɡɔɪ/; גוי‎, pl: goyim /ˈɡɔɪ.ɪm/, גוים‎ or גויים‎) is a term for a gentile, a non-Jew.[2] Through Yiddish,[3] the word has been adopted into English (pl: goyim or goys) also to mean "gentile", sometimes in a pejorative sense.[4][5][6] As a word principally used by Jews to describe non-Jews,[5] it is a term for the ethnic out-group.[7]

The Biblical Hebrew word goy has been commonly translated into English as nation,[8][9] meaning a group of persons of the same ethnic family who speak the same language (rather than the modern meaning of a political unit).[10] In the Bible, goy is used to describe both the Nation of Israel and other nations.

The meaning of the word goy in Hebrew evolved to mean "non-Jew" in the Hellenistic (300BC to 30BC) and Roman periods, as both Rabbinical texts and then Christian theology placed increasing emphasis on a binary division between Jews and non-Jews.

In modern usage in English, the extent to which goy is derogatory is a point of discussion in the Jewish community.

The word "goy" is sometimes used by white supremacists to refer to themselves when signalling a belief in conspiracy theories about Jews.

Goy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The modern meaning isn't the same as the original meaning, and it's the original meaning that matters.

Wikipedia is spotty, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's garbage.

 

[dybmh]

What do you see as the Fundamental difference in Worldview between the Kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel?

Basically, assimilation.

One side desires to assimilate with the other nations and their gods and play the "harlot". Judah (Judaism) does not want to do that. Judah has the monarchy, the temple, elijah, and the scribes, etc... They, Judah ( Judaism ) is the institution. The "other-side" wants to assimilate, break down all of the borders and boundries that define the institution. Put everything in a blender. Chop, mix, and flip everything.

Spoiler: the-other-side

[/spolier]

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Is the teaching that you can be an Atheist or Apostate and still remain a Jew in the Hebrew Scriptures?

Well the sacred texts of the Jews are the Torah, Nevi'im, and Ketuvim of the Tanakh, the Oral Torah of the Talmud, and the writings of the sages. From all of these we get the sum total of Jewish law. Jewish law says that a Jew is someone born of a Jewish mom or who has made a formal conversion.

An Apikores is a Jew who denies the basic tenets of the teachings of Judaism or who acts in a manner inconsistent with Jewish law. That would include Jews who are atheist. The Talmud states a Jew can be sinful and is still a Jew.

A Jew cannot "un-Jew" themselves.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The English has proved Racial Superiority with the British Empire and the Domination of United States.

Wow, I had no idea you were such a racist. I'm sorry, but I can't agree with this, and I find it morally despicable.

 

[DNB]

Do you mean that Capital Crimes committed by an Ethnic Jew causes the Offender to cease being Jewish? If yes, do you have Holy Scriptures to support this?

Well, first of all, death will prohibit them from partaking in fellowship of God's community on earth. But I imagine that their crime, being worthy of death, will also disqualify them from eternal life in God's Kingdom - is that not the same as being rejected from the chosen of God?

 

[DNB]

Well the sacred texts of the Jews are the Torah, Nevi'im, and Ketuvim of the Tanakh, the Oral Torah of the Talmud, and the writings of the sages. From all of these we get the sum total of Jewish law. Jewish law says that a Jew is someone born of a Jewish mom or who has made a formal conversion.

An Apikores is a Jew who denies the basic tenets of the teachings of Judaism or who acts in a manner inconsistent with Jewish law. That would include Jews who are atheist. The Talmud states a Jew can be sinful and is still a Jew.

A Jew cannot "un-Jew" themselves.

Why would not blasphemy, or any capital crime, not cause a Jew to be entirely ostracized from their people, both physically and in memory? A Jew, etymology and originally, is from the tribe of Judah, who was one of Jacob's sons, who, Jacob himself was named Israel, who was from the lineage of Abraham, who was chosen by God to make His name known throughout the nations - as you very well know.

This entire context and history is quintessentially a theistic construct. The Law, which was held sacred by the Jews, defined God - it's entire scope was to obey God and bring Him glory.
Thus, I ask, how in the world can an Israeli atheist, apostate, heathen or pagan ever be considered to be part of the chosen of God - it's an oxy-moron.

 

[Elihoenai]

Basically, assimilation.

One side desires to assimilate with the other nations and their gods and play the "harlot". Judah (Judaism) does not want to do that. Judah has the monarchy, the temple, elijah, and the scribes, etc... They, Judah ( Judaism ) is the institution. The "other-side" wants to assimilate, break down all of the borders and boundries that define the institution. Put everything in a blender. Chop, mix, and flip everything.

Spoiler: the-other-side

View attachment 83872
[/spolier]

I support Ultra-Orthodox Judaism as this branch is Most Devoted to Elohim/God. I Am Ultra Extremist Christian Gnostic. You cannot be an example to the Gentiles by Assimilating because you become like Gentiles through doing so. Christian Gnosticism Transcends the Old Testament/Hebrew Scriptures and New Testament/Greek Scriptures Dichotomy.

 

[Elihoenai]

Well the sacred texts of the Jews are the Torah, Nevi'im, and Ketuvim of the Tanakh, the Oral Torah of the Talmud, and the writings of the sages. From all of these we get the sum total of Jewish law. Jewish law says that a Jew is someone born of a Jewish mom or who has made a formal conversion.

An Apikores is a Jew who denies the basic tenets of the teachings of Judaism or who acts in a manner inconsistent with Jewish law. That would include Jews who are atheist. The Talmud states a Jew can be sinful and is still a Jew.

A Jew cannot "un-Jew" themselves.

Affirming "A Jew cannot "un-Jew" themselves" is the same as Affirming "Once a Jew, Always a Jew". The teaching of "Once a Jew, Always a Jew" must be from the Talmud. In the Hebrew Scriptures the Jew/Israel Status is Totally Determined through the Relationship with the Elohim/God of Israel. Having this Determination with the Elohim/God of Israel Excludes Atheists and Apostates from being Jew/Israel.

Are you, @IndigoChild5559, or any other members on these forums able to show to the contrary in the Hebrew Scriptures concerning the Determined Status of Jew/Israel?

 

[Elihoenai]

Well, first of all, death will prohibit them from partaking in fellowship of God's community on earth. But I imagine that their crime, being worthy of death, will also disqualify them from eternal life in God's Kingdom - is that not the same as being rejected from the chosen of God?

The practitioners of Judaism on this thread are Affirming "Once a Jew, Always a Jew" no matter what Crimes the Jew Commits. This teaching must be from the Talmud and Not in the Hebrew Scriptures.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Affirming "A Jew cannot "un-Jew" themselves" is the same as Affirming "Once a Jew, Always a Jew". The teaching of "Once a Jew, Always a Jew" must be from the Talmud. In the Hebrew Scriptures the Jew/Israel Status is Totally Determined through the Relationship with the Elohim/God of Israel. Having this Determination with the Elohim/God of Israel Excludes Atheists and Apostates from being Jew/Israel.

You can believe any wrongheaded notions you want. The thing is, your opinion on the subject is worth nothing. The only thing that matters is halakah, Jewish law.

Are you, @IndigoChild5559, or any other members on these forums able to show to the contrary in the Hebrew Scriptures concerning the Determined Status of Jew/Israel?

Jewish scriptures include the Tanakh (Torah, Prophets, Writing), the Oral Torah (Talmud) and the writings of the sages. Jews are not sola scriptura.

 

[Ebionite]

The only thing that matters is halakah, Jewish law.

The Karaites would not agree.

 

[Ebionite]

The practitioners of Judaism on this thread are Affirming "Once a Jew, Always a Jew" no matter what Crimes the Jew Commits. This teaching must be from the Talmud and Not in the Hebrew Scriptures.

They can be culturally Jewish, even if they're not religiously observant. You get criminals in every culture.

 

[rosends]

The Karaites would not agree.

sure they would. They just have a different halachic system. They use a local oral law to supplement the written law instead of a codified central oral law.

 

[rosends]

Why would not blasphemy, or any capital crime, not cause a Jew to be entirely ostracized from their people, both physically and in memory?

Because that isn't part of the Jewish legal system. While physical excision exists, memorial excision does not.

A Jew, etymology and originally, is from the tribe of Judah, who was one of Jacob's sons, who, Jacob himself was named Israel, who was from the lineage of Abraham, who was chosen by God to make His name known throughout the nations - as you very well know.

A "Jew" etymologically and originally was from the KINGDOM of Judah which had in it members of many different tribes.

 

[dybmh]

I support Ultra-Orthodox Judaism as this branch is Most Devoted to Elohim/God. I Am Ultra Extremist Christian Gnostic. You cannot be an example to the Gentiles by Assimilating because you become like Gentiles through doing so. Christian Gnosticism Transcends the Old Testament/Hebrew Scriptures and New Testament/Greek Scriptures Dichotomy.

Then I would expect you to oppose anyone attempting to subvert the will of The Lord, The Most High, by claiming to be a member of The House of Jacob ( Israel ) without being born from a Jewish womb, or converting according to Jewish law. Pretending to be "Israel" and stealing Jewish symbols and making them into things they are not in order to con Jewish people into converting into Christianity is encouraging assimilation.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Karaites would not agree.

Although Karaites are Jews, the religion they follow is not Judaism.

I find them to be somewhat dishonest. They say they reject oral Torah, but the truth is, they simply substitute their own laws and traditions, essentially forming their own oral Torah. For example, whereas in Judaism we can light a fire before shabbat and simply keep it going, Karaites will not have any fire in their home -- they basically sit in the dark. Another one -- in Judaism, the married couple having sex on shabbat is a very big mitzvah, but for Karaites, sex is forbidden on shabbat. So don't imagine for a minute that they don't have their own version of Oral Torah.