Who Or What Is Israel?

[Elihoenai]

Maybe it is semantics. You can become Jewish... yes. Israel? I think there may be masked ulterior motives when one says that... like "Spiritual Israel has replaced natural Israel" - which it cannot and will not. God's selected people are still God's selected people and Goyim can be grafted out even as it was grafted in.

I haven't stated that Spiritual Israel has replaced Fleshy Israel. I have Affirmed that there is Spiritual Israel and Fleshly Israel. Israel consists of 12 Tribes and one of those tribes is Judah/Jew.

Again... semantics. A Christian is spiritually alive... he is spiritual. He may be spiritually dull, young, baby, hard of hearing, mature, or carnal... but the are all spiritual

I don't do semantics. Are you saying that a Christian that is an Adulterer/Fornicator, Drunkard and Drug Taker is Spiritual?

As noted above... not contradictory but a matter of understanding. Perhaps if you said a Carnal Christian is not spiritually mature?

Does a Christian that is Sensual and Cherishes the Sensual have any Spiritual?

For those whom the TaNaKh refers to as Goyim but have become Christians, yes, they have become as a prince for our Yeshua Hamashiach has made us lords and he is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.

Goyim means Gentile. Gentiles become Israel by Overcoming the Gentiles through Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ.

 

[Elihoenai]

First, you are using the wrong word. Israeli refers to a citizen of the modern state of Israel. Some Israelis are Jews, and some Israelis are Arab, and some Israelis are Russian, etc. I think the word you meant to use was Israelite, since Israelite=Jew.

Yes, a person who is a Jew and is an atheist remains a Jew. Indeed, there are a great many atheist Jews.

Apostates are more complex. If a Jew converts to another religion such as Christianity, although they technically are still a Jew, they lose all their rights as Jews. For example, they cannot be buried in a Jewish cemetery or testify in a Jewish court of law. Basically, their Jewish identity becomes a technicality. For all practical purposes, they are kicked out.

Does a Gentile that has Converted to Judaism becoming a Jew that later turned from the Religion to Atheism or an Apostate remain a Jew?

I'm not sure what Ruth has to do with Israel becoming Israel.

Ruth is a Moabites that left her Gentile People to become Israel. I used the Word Overcoming the Gentiles because of the Difficulty of Escaping your Cultural Heritage.

 

[Elihoenai]

A formal "conversion to Judaism" is MORE than a religious conversion. It is a process by which one is adopted into Israel.

Think about the Lakota people. The easiest way to be Lakota is to be born Lakota. But in rare cases, the tribe will also adopt outsiders. The Lakota have their own religion. Some Lakota practice traditional Lakota spirituality, and other Lakota do not. It is the same way with the People of Israel.

I know that a Gentile can be adopted into Israel through Conversion to Judaism. I'm ascertaining the differences between an Israelite from the Womb and a Gentile that has become Israel through Conversion when they abandon the Religion.

 

[Elihoenai]

The word Jew, first used during the Babylonian captivity, does not refer to the tribe of Judah. It refers to the KINGDOM of Judah. You can be of any of the 12 tribes and be called a Jew. For example, Mordechai in the Book of Esther is called a Jew, and he was of the tribe of Benjamin. Esther 2:5 Now there was in the citadel of Susa a Jew of the tribe of Benjamin, named Mordecai son of Jair, the son of Shimei, the son of Kish, 6 who had been carried into exile from Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, among those taken captive with Jehoiachin[a] king of Judah.

Jew (word)

Yehudi in the Hebrew Bible

"According to the Book of Genesis, Judah (יְהוּדָה‎, Yehudah) was the name of the fourth son of the patriarch Jacob. During the Exodus, the name was given to the Tribe of Judah, descended from the patriarch Judah. After the conquest and settlement of the land of Canaan, Judah also referred to the territory allocated to the tribe. After the splitting of the united Kingdom of Israel, the name was used for the southern kingdom of Judah. The kingdom now encompassed the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Simeon, along with some of the cities of the Levites. With the destruction of the northern kingdom of Israel (Samaria), the kingdom of Judah became the sole Jewish state and the term y'hudi (יהודי‎) was applied to all Israelites...."

Jew (word) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

British Israelism is, as your quote points out above, PSEUDOarcheology and PSEUDOhistory. No one takes it seriously except a few racists.

Are saying that everyone that practices British Israelism is Racist? If yes, why do you believe this?

 

[wellwisher]

Judah is one of the twelve tribes of Israel. The twelve tribes were an inheritance to the 10 sons and 2 grandsons of Jacob. If you notice Gaza was not part of that inheritance. The twelve tribes were scattered in ancient times and only Judah has returned to Israel. However, prophesy says that all the lost tribes will return to claim their share of the land. The map below shows Jerusalem is within the territory of the tribe of Benjamin.

Again and again prophets of the Lord warned the house of Israel what would happen if they were wicked. Moses prophesied, “And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other” (Deuteronomy 28:64).

The Lord promised that His covenant people would someday be gathered: “I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them” (Jeremiah 23:3).

 

[DNB]

I'm trying to ascertain from the Judaism practitioners on these forums whether a Rejected Israeli from the Nation is still an Israeli despite their Blasphemous Behaviour and Words because of their Mothers Israeli Genetics.

I'm a little hard-pressed right now to find a passage where, by the Law, an Israeli can lose his national heritage and remain alive. By default, I was referring to capital crimes committed by a Hebrew, which would immediately eradicate them from their inclusion within the people of God - and from the life to come.

 

[dybmh]

I don't entirely agree with your exegesis - it doesn't state that when an Israeli daughter marries a foreigner that she even remains Jewish

It doesn't need to.

- the prohibition is merely enacted to eradicate the influence that non-Israelites will have on the children of God.

the word "merely" is a choice, an opinion, a preference to reduce precision from the verse.

I would imagine that an Israeli woman will lose her national identity when marrying a foreigner.

Your imagination is not Jewish Law.

For this principle also alludes to their obligation to marry into the same tribe as her father as to not lose their inheritance - the man determines the tribe; patriarchal descent.

No it doesn't allude to that. And the daughters do not lose their inheritance. Ref: The daughter's of tzelafchad.

In the case of Ruth marrying Boaz; their children were Israelites, not Moabites - the man determines the nationality; patriarchal descent.

That is tribal affiliation which is the "body". Jewish or not is "soul". The mother is obviously more spiritual than the father. Life comes from her womb. Produces milk. The mother is the one who raises the child while the father is working outside the home. The mother teaches the child the law. Mom knows best. This is simple stuff.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jew (word)

Yehudi in the Hebrew Bible

"According to the Book of Genesis, Judah (יְהוּדָה‎, Yehudah) was the name of the fourth son of the patriarch Jacob. During the Exodus, the name was given to the Tribe of Judah, descended from the patriarch Judah. After the conquest and settlement of the land of Canaan, Judah also referred to the territory allocated to the tribe. After the splitting of the united Kingdom of Israel, the name was used for the southern kingdom of Judah. The kingdom now encompassed the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Simeon, along with some of the cities of the Levites. With the destruction of the northern kingdom of Israel (Samaria), the kingdom of Judah became the sole Jewish state and the term y'hudi (יהודי‎) was applied to all Israelites...."

Jew (word) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Since this essentially agrees with what I said, that Jew refers to the Kingdom of Judah, not to the tribe of Judah, I'm not sure why you felt the need to supply it.

Are saying that everyone that practices British Israelism is Racist? If yes, why do you believe this?

What I said was that the very few people who are into British Israelism are racists. They believe in the superiority of the English people. By promoting this myth that the English are the ten lost tribes of Israel, they are presenting the English as special and chosen. And not chosen in the way that Jews are chosen (meaning chosen for increased responsibilities), but chosen in a way that makes them exceptional and superior (which Jews do not claim). This idea that the English are superior to other peoples is clearly racist.

Furthermore, British Israelism goes out of its way to distinguish Israelites from Jews, and most versions (especially that which became common in America) were highly antisemitic, holding to the two seedline theory. The two seedline theory basically teaches that the children of Eve had two different fathers, Abel being the son of Adam, and Cain being the son of the serpent. Jews are believed to be the descendants of the union between Eve and the serpent.

I suppose you could have a rare person who believes that the English are the ten lost tribes, but who also rejects ethnic superiority of British Israelism. I am not sure what you would call such a person.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jew (word)

Yehudi in the Hebrew Bible

"According to the Book of Genesis, Judah (יְהוּדָה‎, Yehudah) was the name of the fourth son of the patriarch Jacob. During the Exodus, the name was given to the Tribe of Judah, descended from the patriarch Judah. After the conquest and settlement of the land of Canaan, Judah also referred to the territory allocated to the tribe. After the splitting of the united Kingdom of Israel, the name was used for the southern kingdom of Judah. The kingdom now encompassed the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Simeon, along with some of the cities of the Levites. With the destruction of the northern kingdom of Israel (Samaria), the kingdom of Judah became the sole Jewish state and the term y'hudi (יהודי‎) was applied to all Israelites...."

Jew (word) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Since this essentially agrees with what I said, that Jew refers to the Kingdom of Judah, not to the tribe of Judah, I'm not sure why you felt the need to supply it.

Are saying that everyone that practices British Israelism is Racist? If yes, why do you believe this?

What I said was that the very few people who are into British Israelism are racists. They believe in the superiority of the English people. By promoting this myth that the English are the ten lost tribes of Israel, they are presenting the English as special and chosen. And not chosen in the way that Jews are chosen (meaning chosen for increased responsibilities), but chosen in a way that makes them exceptional and superior (which Jews do not claim). This idea that the English are superior to other peoples is clearly racist.

Furthermore, British Israelism goes out of its way to distinguish Israelites from Jews, and most versions (especially that which became common in America) were highly antisemitic, holding to the two seedline theory. The two seedline theory basically teaches that the children of Eve had two different fathers, Abel being the son of Adam, and Cain being the son of the serpent. Jews are believed to be the descendants of the union between Eve and the serpent.

In modern times, British Israelism finds a home among two groups: white supremacist/Christian identity groups and the Hebrew Roots movement (which teaches the Two House doctrine). If you would like a discussion about the Hebrew Roots movement, we can do that, just let me know.

I suppose hypothetically you could have a rare person who believes that the English are the ten lost tribes, but who also rejects ethnic superiority of British Israelism. I am not sure what you would call such a person.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I know that a Gentile can be adopted into Israel through Conversion to Judaism. I'm ascertaining the differences between an Israelite from the Womb and a Gentile that has become Israel through Conversion when they abandon the Religion.

Each is 100% Jew. A born Jew basically has a choice to obey the mitzvot or not, but candidates for conversion are weeded out, so that only the best are converted, one of the criteria being their willingness to take on the obligation to the Law. There is one law pertaining to Kohanim that states a Kohan may not marry a convert. Although it is forbidden, there are always some Jews who are bigoted against converts, which is why Jewish law forbids even asking a person whether they are born Jew or Jew by choice. That about covers it.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Does a Gentile that has Converted to Judaism becoming a Jew that later turned from the Religion to Atheism or an Apostate remain a Jew?

Yes, no different from a born Jew. I think I already wrote you a post explaining how an Apostate, although technically still a Jew, loses all their rights as a Jew. An atheist Jew is not apostate, but is a heretic.

 

[dybmh]

"According to the Book of Genesis, Judah (יְהוּדָה‎, Yehudah) was the name of the fourth son of the patriarch Jacob. During the Exodus, the name was given to the Tribe of Judah, descended from the patriarch Judah. After the conquest and settlement of the land of Canaan, Judah also referred to the territory allocated to the tribe. After the splitting of the united Kingdom of Israel, the name was used for the southern kingdom of Judah. The kingdom now encompassed the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Simeon, along with some of the cities of the Levites. With the destruction of the northern kingdom of Israel (Samaria), the kingdom of Judah became the sole Jewish state and the term y'hudi (יהודי‎) was applied to all Israelites...."

If you would like to understand a functional difference that distinguishes a "Jew" please compare the attitudes, values and principles coming from the Kingdom of Judah, compared with the Kingdom of Israel.

Then consider that Jesus came from the attitudes, values, and principles of the Kingdom of Israel, not Judah. Done. Case closed. He literally came from gallilee one of the most syncretic hellenistic cities in the Kingdom.

 

[DNB]

No it doesn't allude to that. And the daughters do not lose their inheritance. Ref: The daughter's of tzelafchad.

But the passage says otherwise: the daughters must marry a man according to their tribe, for it is the main who retains one's identity whether it be tribal or national. And they did stand to lose their inheritance as the verses state:

Numbers 27:1-11
​

27 The daughters of Zelophehad son of Hepher, the son of Gilead, the son of Makir, the son of Manasseh, belonged to the clans of Manasseh son of Joseph. The names of the daughters were Mahlah, Noah, Hoglah, Milkah and Tirzah. They came forward 2 and stood before Moses, Eleazar the priest, the leaders and the whole assembly at the entrance to the tent of meeting and said, 3 “Our father died in the wilderness. He was not among Korah’s followers, who banded together against the Lord, but he died for his own sin and left no sons. 4 Why should our father’s name disappear from his clan because he had no son? Give us property among our father’s relatives.”
5 So Moses brought their case before the Lord, 6 and the Lord said to him, 7 “What Zelophehad’s daughters are saying is right. You must certainly give them property as an inheritance among their father’s relatives and give their father’s inheritance to them.
8 “Say to the Israelites, ‘If a man dies and leaves no son, give his inheritance to his daughter. 9 If he has no daughter, give his inheritance to his brothers. 10 If he has no brothers, give his inheritance to his father’s brothers. 11 If his father had no brothers, give his inheritance to the nearest relative in his clan, that he may possess it. This is to have the force of law for the Israelites, as the Lord commanded Moses.’”

That is tribal affiliation which is the "body". Jewish or not is "soul". The mother is obviously more spiritual than the father. Life comes from her womb. Produces milk. The mother is the one who raises the child while the father is working outside the home. The mother teaches the child the law. Mom knows best. This is simple stuff.

I'm sorry, your opinion about gender is adverse to the teaching of the TaNaKh - men determined all things: man was created before woman, the curse of the fall compelled women to be ruled by their husbands (Gen. 3:16), men were Judges (1 exception), only men were Kings, Levitical Priests, were bestowed the First-Born privilege, all the Bible books were written by men, etc...

 

[dybmh]

But the passage says otherwise: the daughters must marry a man according to their tribe, for it is the main who retains one's identity whether it be tribal or national. And they did stand to lose their inheritance as the verses state:

No, not national, that is not what is written.

“What Zelophehad’s daughters are saying is right. You must certainly give them property as an inheritance among their father’s relatives and give their father’s inheritance to them.

This does not say that they must marry within their own tribe. It says that they receive the father's inheritance.

I'm sorry, your opinion about gender is adverse to the teaching of the TaNaKh

Not true. I brought you to verses. it is your choice to whether or not to ignore them.

- men determined all things: man was created before woman, the curse of the fall compelled women to be ruled by their husbands (Gen. 3:16)

That verse is only Adam and Eve.

אל־האשה אמר הרבה ארבה עצבונך והרנך בעצב תלדי בנים ואל־אישך תשוקתך והוא ימשל־בך׃

To the woman he said, I will greatly multiply the pain of your child bearing; in sorrow you shall bring forth children; and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you.

That is specific. Just Adam and Eve.

Compare to:

על־כן יעזב־איש את־אביו ואת־אמו ודבק באשתו והיו לבשר אחד׃

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall be one flesh.

The man cleaves to the wife. Not the other way around.

Sure The Christian bible flip-flops this and wants to position the man in charge, but, that is the Christian bible is has no authority over Jewish people, the religion, or the law. If you as a Christian want to put thee man in charge of everything, that makes sense to me that Chrstianity would choose do to that. And it also makes sens to me that Judaism would take a more balanced approach.

, men were Judges (1 exception), only men were Kings, Levitical Priests, were bestowed the First-Born privilege, all the Bible books were written by men, etc...

This has nothing to do with whether or not Judiasm is matrilineal not whether or not woman are more spiritual and mean are more material.

 

[DNB]

No, not national, that is not what is written.



This does not say that they must marry within their own tribe. It says that they receive the father's inheritance.

My mistake - this is the pericope that I intended to demonstrate thew point:

Numbers 36

36 The family heads of the clan of Gilead son of Makir, the son of Manasseh, who were from the clans of the descendants of Joseph, came and spoke before Moses and the leaders, the heads of the Israelite families. 2 They said, “When the Lord commanded my lord to give the land as an inheritance to the Israelites by lot, he ordered you to give the inheritance of our brother Zelophehad to his daughters. 3 Now suppose they marry men from other Israelite tribes; then their inheritance will be taken from our ancestral inheritance and added to that of the tribe they marry into. And so part of the inheritance allotted to us will be taken away. 4 When the Year of Jubilee for the Israelites comes, their inheritance will be added to that of the tribe into which they marry, and their property will be taken from the tribal inheritance of our ancestors.”

5 Then at the Lord’s command Moses gave this order to the Israelites: “What the tribe of the descendants of Joseph is saying is right. 6 This is what the Lord commands for Zelophehad’s daughters: They may marry anyone they please as long as they marry within their father’s tribal clan. 7 No inheritance in Israel is to pass from one tribe to another, for every Israelite shall keep the tribal inheritance of their ancestors. 8 Every daughter who inherits land in any Israelite tribe must marry someone in her father’s tribal clan, so that every Israelite will possess the inheritance of their ancestors. 9 No inheritance may pass from one tribe to another, for each Israelite tribe is to keep the land it inherits.”

Males determine the tribe - just another example of a patriarchal society

That verse is only Adam and Eve.

אל־האשה אמר הרבה ארבה עצבונך והרנך בעצב תלדי בנים ואל־אישך תשוקתך והוא ימשל־בך׃

To the woman he said, I will greatly multiply the pain of your child bearing; in sorrow you shall bring forth children; and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you.

That is specific. Just Adam and Eve.

Compare to:

על־כן יעזב־איש את־אביו ואת־אמו ודבק באשתו והיו לבשר אחד׃

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall be one flesh.

The man cleaves to the wife. Not the other way around.

None of the punitive measures or repercussions of the fall pertained only to a particular person or singular entity - the curse affected all creation and the results persist unto today: the earth still produces thorns and thistles, man still eats by the sweat of his brow, both in actuality and figuratively (white or blue collar), serpents still crawl on their bellies and eat the dust of the ground, and in general, the women still yearns for a husband and the husband is the dominant figure within the marriage (societal influence or not)

 

[dybmh]

My mistake - this is the pericope that I intended to demonstrate thew point:

No problem, thanks for clarifying. Please note the qualification:

Numbers 36
6 This is what the Lord commands for Zelophehad’s daughters: They may marry anyone they please as long as they marry within their father’s tribal clan. 7 No inheritance in Israel is to pass from one tribe to another, for every Israelite shall keep the tribal inheritance of their ancestors. 8 Every daughter who inherits land in any Israelite tribe must marry someone in her father’s tribal clan, so that every Israelite will possess the inheritance of their ancestors. 9 No inheritance may pass from one tribe to another, for each Israelite tribe is to keep the land it inherits.”

Males determine the tribe - just another example of a patriarchal society

We have no argument. But that doesn't have ANY bearing on who is or is not Jewish.

None of the punitive measures or repercussions of the fall pertained only to a particular person or singular entity - the curse affected all creation and the results persist unto today: the earth still produces thorns and thistles, man still eats by the sweat of his brow, both in actuality and figuratively (white or blue collar), serpents still crawl on their bellies and eat the dust of the ground, and in general, the women still yearns for a husband and the husband is the dominant figure within the marriage (societal influence or not)

This also has no bearing on who is or is not Jewish.

 

[Elihoenai]

Judah is one of the twelve tribes of Israel. The twelve tribes were an inheritance to the 10 sons and 2 grandsons of Jacob. If you notice Gaza was not part of that inheritance. The twelve tribes were scattered in ancient times and only Judah has returned to Israel. However, prophesy says that all the lost tribes will return to claim their share of the land. The map below shows Jerusalem is within the territory of the tribe of Benjamin.

Are you saying that Elohim/God had deemed Israel Righteous given that they have been brought back from other countries to their own land?

 

[Elihoenai]

I'm a little hard-pressed right now to find a passage where, by the Law, an Israeli can lose his national heritage and remain alive. By default, I was referring to capital crimes committed by a Hebrew, which would immediately eradicate them from their inclusion within the people of God - and from the life to come.

Do you mean that Capital Crimes committed by an Ethnic Jew causes the Offender to cease being Jewish? If yes, do you have Holy Scriptures to support this?

 

[Ebionite]

Goyim means Gentile

No, goyim is about numerosity.

Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations[goyim] have I made thee.
Genesis 17:5

 

[Elihoenai]

Since this essentially agrees with what I said, that Jew refers to the Kingdom of Judah, not to the tribe of Judah, I'm not sure why you felt the need to supply it.

Yes, it supports what you said Jew being the Kingdom of Judah. It's for the benefit of readers if they want more information.

What I said was that the very few people who are into British Israelism are racists. They believe in the superiority of the English people. By promoting this myth that the English are the ten lost tribes of Israel, they are presenting the English as special and chosen. And not chosen in the way that Jews are chosen (meaning chosen for increased responsibilities), but chosen in a way that makes them exceptional and superior (which Jews do not claim). This idea that the English are superior to other peoples is clearly racist.

Furthermore, British Israelism goes out of its way to distinguish Israelites from Jews, and most versions (especially that which became common in America) were highly antisemitic, holding to the two seedline theory. The two seedline theory basically teaches that the children of Eve had two different fathers, Abel being the son of Adam, and Cain being the son of the serpent. Jews are believed to be the descendants of the union between Eve and the serpent.

I suppose you could have a rare person who believes that the English are the ten lost tribes, but who also rejects ethnic superiority of British Israelism. I am not sure what you would call such a person.

I was born and brought up in London, England and live in London, England. *Staff Edit* Those that practice British Israelism point to the fulfilment of Prophecies with the Establishment of the British Empire.

The English/Germans have the Superior Earthly Power. I Am Morally Superior to the English/Germans. The World is All About Power and Not Really About Morals.