Who Or What Is Israel?

[Kenny]

Therefore, by Religious Conversion you can become Israel.

Maybe it is semantics. You can become Jewish... yes. Israel? I think there may be masked ulterior motives when one says that... like "Spiritual Israel has replaced natural Israel" - which it cannot and will not. God's selected people are still God's selected people and Goyim can be grafted out even as it was grafted in.

A Carnal Christian is a Non-Spiritual Christian.

Again... semantics. A Christian is spiritually alive... he is spiritual. He may be spiritually dull, young, baby, hard of hearing, mature, or carnal... but the are all spiritual

You have contradicted your previous statement about Non-Spiritual Christian given that a Carnal Christian is a Non-Spiritual Christian. Everything that happens is the Will of Elohim/God and Ordained by Elohim/God.

As noted above... not contradictory but a matter of understanding. Perhaps if you said a Carnal Christian is not spiritually mature?

Genesis 32:28

28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.


I posed the question to get readers to think more deeply about the Holy Scriptures in Genesis 32:28 what it means to have Power with Elohim/God and with Men.

For those whom the TaNaKh refers to as Goyim but have become Christians, yes, they have become as a prince for our Yeshua Hamashiach has made us lords and he is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.

 

[Elihoenai]

Israel, in the Old Testament, were those born genetically from Israeli parents ( a father actually), the tribe being determined by the father also. Proselytes could obtain the Jewish heritage by devotion and ritual.
But an Israeli could be rejected from the nation by their blasphemous words or behaviour.

Ultimately, God is the Father of all nations, and the Law does not necessitate that those who uphold it actually love God. Therefore, being an Israelite is a matter of faith and trust in God, not just observing rituals that pertain to the flesh. And this is where the wisdom of the New Testament supersedes that of the Old Covenant, verifying, therefore, its divine auspices.

It was Abraham's faith that deemed him to be righteous, as it was with Noah also, who didn't even have the mark of circumcision.
Love for God is the only authentic form of gaining His favour, and when one acts in faith that God is good and wise will receive His approbation. The acceptance of His Messiah as the Saviour, declares one's faith in God's holiness, wisdom and mercy.

I'm trying to ascertain from the Judaism practitioners on these forums whether a Rejected Israeli from the Nation is still an Israeli despite their Blasphemous Behaviour and Words because of their Mothers Israeli Genetics.

 

[Elihoenai]

The house of Israel was distunguished from the house of Judah by membership in particular tribes, which was generally hereditary.

A reminder to readers that Israel consists of the 12 Tribes and one of those Tribes is Judah/Jew. Who are are other Hereditary Eleven? In British Israelism they assert the other Ten Tribes are the British.


British Israelism

British Israelism (also called Anglo-Israelism) is the British nationalist, pseudoarchaeological, pseudohistorical[1] and pseudoreligious[2] belief that the people of Great Britain are "genetically, racially, and linguistically the direct descendants" of the Ten Lost Tribes of ancient Israel.

British Israelism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Elihoenai]

Bingo. It is all about the 'Seed' and the 'Stone with Seven Eyes' and what will be done to said Stone.

There is an emphasis on 'improving Genetics' all throughout the Bible...

Genesis 30:41
"And it came to pass, whensoever the stronger cattle did conceive, that Jacob laid the rods before the eyes of the cattle in the gutters, that they might conceive among the rods."

Salvation comes from the 'influencing' of Genomes through a pre-prescribed and Holy method, laid out in the Sacred Word.

Deuteronomy 7:15

15 And the Lord will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.


This perspective is really appreciated. You are talking about Eugenics. Are you Practising Eugenics through the Law Of Moses? I Practice Eugenics through the Law Of Moses being Vegan and No Alcohol for example. Practising the Law Of Moses Destroys the Corrupt Body.


Eugenics

Eugenics (/juːˈdʒɛnɪks/ yoo-JEN-iks; from Ancient Greek εύ̃ (eû) 'good, well', and -γενής (genḗs) 'come into being, growing')[1] is a set of beliefs and practices that aim to improve the genetic quality of a human population.

Eugenics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Elihoenai]

Your contributions so far on your perspectives about Who or What is Israel is much appreciated. This is a good time to think more deeply about the Nature of Israel while Israel is in the Spotlight. Israel is Elohim's/God's Representative on the Earth. Muslims are Elohim's/God's Representatives on Earth.

Elohim/God is Good and Evil. In the Midst of Wolves you Must be the Strongest Wolf:


Sicario 2015 - Time To Meet God Diner Scene HD

Sicario (Ending Scene) : This is the land of wolves now

I Am A Lamb in the Midst of Wolves.

 

[John D. Brey]

Now change the paradigm. Is the living process surviving in the new vehicle (body/mass)? Does the energy (life) actually survive into the next generation?

Now you're focusing on the real target. The gametes are immortal even now. A seventy-year old man and a forty-five year old woman can mix gametes and produce a new human as young and fresh as the season's first snow. Gametes don't age in the sense that a fifty-year old gives birth to a fifty-year old.

The only purpose of somatic cells [the body], from nature's point of view, is to optimize the survival and functions of the true guardians of the DNA, the germ cells.

Professor William R. Clark, Sex & The Origins of Death, p. 75.​

But what's the purpose for guarding the DNA if there's no teleological purpose, direction, target?

§ The Gemara further discusses the sin of the Golden Calf. Reish Lakish says: Come and let us be grateful to our ancestors who sinned with the Golden Calf, as had they not sinned we would not have come into the world. Reish Lakish explains: As it is stated about the Jewish people after the revelation at Sinai: “I said: You are godlike beings, and all of you sons of the Most High” (Psalms 82:6), which indicates that they had become like angels and would not have propagated offspring. Then, God states: After you ruined your deeds: “Yet you shall die like a man, and fall like one of the princes” (Psalms 82:7).​

​

Avodah Zarah 5:a, 7.​

John

 

[Bthoth]

Now you're focusing on the real target.

Understanding life?

The gametes are immortal even now. A seventy-year old man and a forty-five year old woman can mix gametes and produce a new human as young and fresh as the season's first snow. Gametes don't age in the sense that a fifty-year old gives birth to a fifty-year old.

The life is not the gamete itself, but the living process upon that cell.

The only purpose of somatic cells [the body], from nature's point of view, is to optimize the survival and functions of the true guardians of the DNA, the germ cells.​

The living process is what keeps the molecule together (DNA). The molecules are the vehicle as the chain is used like RAM, the vehicle to process the energy into complex formations of new molecules.

But what's the purpose for guarding the DNA if there's no teleological purpose, direction, target?

But there is a direction, purpose. To survive, to continue. The cells living process, intends to continue.

§ The Gemara further discusses the sin of the Golden Calf.​

Hathor was an image within the egyptian culture: calf/bull. Creating an image was and still is sinful, agreed. The commandments that Moses put to stone are beautiful. Although they already existed in form within egypt, the conveyance was sweet. As solid then as still today. The commandments enable personal responsibility with no need of idolatry (image) or central authority (thebes) but the self, can sustain them.

 

[John D. Brey]

But there is a direction, purpose. To survive, to continue. The cells living process, intends to continue.

Why? Why does it intend to continue? Nothing better to do?



John

 

[Bthoth]

Why? Why does it intend to continue? Nothing better to do?



John

The same 'why' that our heart beats. The same drive of instinct. The living process itself. Try the change of perspective. Rather than the DNA, mass but the energy (light), as the life of the body (mass).

 

[Yokefellow]

Why? Why does it intend to continue? Nothing better to do?



John

That is why it is called the 'Bottomless Pit'.

Unless stopped, Life will spring from it infinitely.

 

[Yokefellow]

Reminder:

The Tabernacles and Temples in the Bible are scale models of Eukaryotic Cells. They switch roles on Yom Kippur to be a model of a Zygote at the moment of conception...

​

The High Priest is a picture of the Holy Ghost that aids in the fertilization process. It is also a picture of Genetic Engineering.

The Israelites were being trained to correct the Genetics of Life. They did not understand unfortunately.

 

[Yokefellow]

Hathor was an image within the egyptian culture: calf/bull.

Which points to Hagar, the Egyptian Woman that gendereth to bondage. Earthly Jerusalem represents the Womb of Hagar...

New Jerusalem represents the Womb of Sarah.

The idea here is that the Human Race needs to be Born Again of Abraham's Seed.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes, I heard you describe the nature of Israel in this way before.

I will ask you the same question that I posed to @dybmh: Can a person that is born of an Israeli mother lose their Israeli Identity by becoming Atheist or an Apostate converting to another Religion?

First, you are using the wrong word. Israeli refers to a citizen of the modern state of Israel. Some Israelis are Jews, and some Israelis are Arab, and some Israelis are Russian, etc. I think the word you meant to use was Israelite, since Israelite=Jew.

Yes, a person who is a Jew and is an atheist remains a Jew. Indeed, there are a great many atheist Jews.

Apostates are more complex. If a Jew converts to another religion such as Christianity, although they technically are still a Jew, they lose all their rights as Jews. For example, they cannot be buried in a Jewish cemetery or testify in a Jewish court of law. Basically, their Jewish identity becomes a technicality. For all practical purposes, they are kicked out.

Concerning Ruth, also remember that Israel had to Overcome the Nations to Become Israel.

I'm not sure what Ruth has to do with Israel becoming Israel.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Therefore, by Religious Conversion you can become Israel.

A formal "conversion to Judaism" is MORE than a religious conversion. It is a process by which one is adopted into Israel.

Think about the Lakota people. The easiest way to be Lakota is to be born Lakota. But in rare cases, the tribe will also adopt outsiders. The Lakota have their own religion. Some Lakota practice traditional Lakota spirituality, and other Lakota do not. It is the same way with the People of Israel.

 

[Bthoth]

Reminder:

The Tabernacles and Temples in the Bible are scale models of Eukaryotic Cells. They switch roles on Yom Kippur to be a model of a Zygote at the moment of conception...

Wow....... Strange combination of discipline? i could never have associated the beauty of the living with a ritual center.

​

The High Priest is a picture of the Holy Ghost that aids in the fertilization process. It is also a picture of Genetic Engineering.

The rebbe as a holy ghost? Or is there a debate of which who is the high priest? What's a messiah to the equation?

The Israelites were being trained to correct the Genetics of Life. They did not understand unfortunately.

Too much inbreeding will do more damage than good. Did you see what happened to Tut?

Which points to Hagar, the Egyptian Woman that gendereth to bondage. Earthly Jerusalem represents the Womb of Hagar...

Jerusalem (city of blood) could fit as a women's womb. Is that why there is so much fighting over the location.

New Jerusalem represents the Womb of Sarah.

But the New City will not be in the state of israel.

The idea here is that the Human Race needs to be Born Again of Abraham's Seed.

scary thought.............. but then again, 'many nations' does represent a good diversity of cultures and dining

 

[Yokefellow]

Thanks @Bthoth . I will address your comments hopefully later today.

 

[Yokefellow]

Wow....... Strange combination of discipline? i could never have associated the beauty of the living with a ritual center.

I was blown away when I first learned about it. Note that much of this information was passed down to me by folks that are way smarter than I am. I am simply passing the information on for others to meditate on.

The rebbe as a holy ghost? Or is there a debate of which who is the high priest? What's a messiah to the equation?

On the Day of Atonement, the High Priest switches wardrobe to white linen...

Leviticus 16:4
"He shall put on the holy linen coat, and he shall have the linen breeches upon his flesh, and shall be girded with a linen girdle, and with the linen mitre shall he be attired: these are holy garments; therefore shall he wash his flesh in water, and so put them on."

This signifies a role change. It is a picture of righteousness and the Holy Spirit entering into the Nucleolus of the Ovum. This is where Ovum Fertilization takes place by sprinkling the Blood of the Goat (DNA of the Father) and Blood of the Bullock (DNA of the Mother).

This process is documented here...

Matthew 1:20
"But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."

Thus, by studying the rituals of the Day of Atonement, we can get a glimpse of how Mary conceived without the normal act of procreation.

Too much inbreeding will do more damage than good. Did you see what happened to Tut?

Any kind of correction to the Genomes of Earth must be done via a special type of Genetic Engineering with the blessings of God. In other words, there is no way to correct and eliminate Death via the 'old fashioned' way of childbirth or manmade 'breeding programs' (manmade Eugenics).

Unfortunately, from what I can ascertain from Scripture, this window of opportunity closed with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.

The New Testament is a sort of 'Plan-B'. The Genetic Upgrade process will now be done via a different method involving Resurrection Day and Rapture. Naturally, this plan will not sit well with the Tanakh folks who do not acknowledge the New Testament.

The Israelites came really close to fulfilling Plan-A, however. Ezekiel's Temple was to be a type of 'Supernatural Genetic Engineering Facility' designed for the Israelites to work closely with God in fixing and correcting the Genomes of all Life on the Planet. It was a 'conditional promise' that ended up being scrapped because of disobedience...

Ezekiel 43:11
"And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them."

Many people think that Ezekiel's Temple is future. It is not. It was as close as we ever came to a Heavenly Kingdom on Earth.

Jerusalem (city of blood) could fit as a women's womb. Is that why there is so much fighting over the location.

There very well could be a plan to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem and finish the Great Work that the Old Testament laid out. Red Heifers and other components to making it all come together are practically ready to go.

If there is continual escalation in the current war, this could end up being a reality.

But the New City will not be in the state of israel.

As a Christian, I believe that Heavenly Jerusalem will be the 'Mother of us all'...

Galatians 4:26
"But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

This is of course very controversial and debatable. There are those that still want to create an Earthly Utopia.

scary thought.............. but then again, 'many nations' does represent a good diversity of cultures and dining

This brings us to the ultimate meaning of the word 'Israel'. I do not believe that a manmade Eugenics program will work, especially via normal 'breeding' methods. The Body Temple must be made without hands...

Mark 14:58
"We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands."

The 144,000 mentioned in the Book of Revelation represent the 'Upgraded Seed' that enter the Yoni Gates of the New Jerusalem Womb to help fertilize the Ovum on the Tree of Life. The Lamb is the first to go in. It is the 'Bridegroom' in the sense of Sperm meeting Egg. The Occult folks might call it an 'Alchemical Wedding'.

Note that Mount Zion represents the Male Generative Principle (Phallus). The Lamb and 144,000 are at the 'head' or 'tip' of said Phallus, waiting for the 'Mother' to descend onto it and 'consummate the Wedding' so to speak. The 'Water of Life' is the Semen that emanates from the Lamb with Seven Eyes (Nitrogen Base) to 'fertilize' the Tree.

Mount Sinai represents the 'carnal' or 'Earthly' Phallus that impregnates Hagar (Earthly Jerusalem)...

Galatians 4:24-25 (New International Version)
"These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar."

"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children."

Here is the punchline...

*ALL* of the Human Race is 'allegorically' descended from Hagar. In other words, *ALL* of the Human Race is in bondage and requires Salvation (DNA Upgrade). That is the part that the Tanakh folks are blind to currently. Jesus is the only 'True Seed' of Abraham...

Galatians 3:16
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

Everyone else is of the 'Father the Devil'... like literally.

 

[Ebionite]

A reminder to readers that Israel consists of the 12 Tribes and one of those Tribes is Judah/Jew. Who are are other Hereditary Eleven? In British Israelism they assert the other Ten Tribes are the British.


British Israelism

British Israelism (also called Anglo-Israelism) is the British nationalist, pseudoarchaeological, pseudohistorical[1] and pseudoreligious[2] belief that the people of Great Britain are "genetically, racially, and linguistically the direct descendants" of the Ten Lost Tribes of ancient Israel.

British Israelism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sorry, but Wikipedia isn't a credible source for information relating to the connection between the church as state,

The main argument for a connection is based on semiotics, and that doesn't get a mention on the Wikipedia page.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

A reminder to readers that Israel consists of the 12 Tribes and one of those Tribes is Judah/Jew.

The word Jew, first used during the Babylonian captivity, does not refer to the tribe of Judah. It refers to the KINGDOM of Judah. You can be of any of the 12 tribes and be called a Jew. For example, Mordechai in the Book of Esther is called a Jew, and he was of the tribe of Benjamin. Esther 2:5 Now there was in the citadel of Susa a Jew of the tribe of Benjamin, named Mordecai son of Jair, the son of Shimei, the son of Kish, 6 who had been carried into exile from Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, among those taken captive with Jehoiachin[a] king of Judah.

Who are are other Hereditary Eleven? In British Israelism they assert the other Ten Tribes are the British.


British Israelism

British Israelism (also called Anglo-Israelism) is the British nationalist, pseudoarchaeological, pseudohistorical[1] and pseudoreligious[2] belief that the people of Great Britain are "genetically, racially, and linguistically the direct descendants" of the Ten Lost Tribes of ancient Israel.

British Israelism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

British Israelism is, as your quote points out above, PSEUDOarcheology and PSEUDOhistory. No one takes it seriously except a few racists.

 

[DNB]

The wives of the patriarchs converted prior to marriage.

And it's matrilineal descent.

It's a little difficult to see it but here are the verses:

​

Deuteronomy​

​

7:3​

ולא תתחתן בם בתך לא־תתן לבנו ובתו לא־תקח לבנך׃​

And you shall not make marriages with them; your daughter you shall not give to his son, nor his daughter shall you take to your son.​

​

7:4​

כי־יסיר את־בנך מאחרי ועבדו אלהים אחרים וחרה אף־יהוה בכם והשמידך מהר׃​

For they will turn away your son from following me, that they may serve other gods; so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy you speedily.​

Please notice: The law says "they will turn your son from following me:". They means in both cases above.

Case 1: Your daughter is given to his son. Who is "your son" who is not following anymore? It's the offspring who is considered Israel. In this case "your son" is the grandchild. Therefore, the child born from the Jewish womb, regardless of the father, is Jewish ( In the House of Jacob, aka Israel ).

Case 2: His daughter shall you take to your son. Who is "your son" who is not following anymore? It's literally "your son". The status of the offspring are irrelevant because they are not born to a Jewish womb, regardless of the father.

In either case, the status of the father is irrelevant. That's the law. Matrilineal descent.

I don't entirely agree with your exegesis - it doesn't state that when an Israeli daughter marries a foreigner that she even remains Jewish - the prohibition is merely enacted to eradicate the influence that non-Israelites will have on the children of God. I would imagine that an Israeli woman will lose her national identity when marrying a foreigner. For this principle also alludes to their obligation to marry into the same tribe as her father as to not lose their inheritance - the man determines the tribe; patriarchal descent.
In the case of Ruth marrying Boaz; their children were Israelites, not Moabites - the man determines the nationality; patriarchal descent.