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Who Or What Is Israel?

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I'm not talking about Russian converts. I'm talking about Russian who for example have a Jewish grandfather. They are thus NOT a jew, yet can make aliyah and are granted automatic citizenship despite being Gentile (not to mention Christian)
By the standards of the Law of Return if your grandfather was a Jew you may be considered culturally a Jew, and convert back to being a Jew eligible for immigration. The Israel government determined the standard as to who os a Jew not you.

You have ignored the specifics of the reference I cited. You have NOT provided a reference to the contrary.

Voluntary acquisition​

Any Jew who immigrates to Israel as an oleh (Jewish immigrant) under the Law of Return automatically becomes an Israeli citizen.[72] In this context, a Jew means a person born to a Jewish mother, or someone who has converted to Judaism and does not adhere to another religion. This right to citizenship extends to any children or grandchildren of a Jew, as well as the spouse of a Jew, or the spouse of a child or grandchild of a Jew. A Jew who voluntarily converts to another religion forfeits their right to claim citizenship under this provision.[73] At the end of 2020, 21 percent of the total Jewish population in Israel was born overseas.


This absence of legal clarity was tested in the 1962 Supreme Court case Rufeisen v. Minister of the Interior in which Oswald Rufeisen, a Polish Jew who had converted to Catholicism, was ruled to have no longer met the criterion of being a Jew on his religious conversion.[44] Converting to any other faith is considered to be a deliberate act of dissociation from the Jewish people. The Supreme Court elaborated on this in the 1969 case Shalit v. Minister of the Interior, when it ruled that children of non-practicing Jews would be considered Jews. Unlike Rufeisen, the children took no action that could be considered dissociating. However, this ruling created a separation between the Jewish religion and the legal interpretation of membership in the Jewish people that required legislative clarification.

In 2018 Israel passed the Nation-State Law further defining Israel as specifically a Jewish State for Jews.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You keep posting stuff as if it makes any difference. It doesn't. I don't even bother reading it. The points I've made are factual. You can find websites that say anything. You can find websites that say the earth is flat. It doesn't make it so. You can find websites that say Jews use the blood of Christian children to make matza. It doesn't make it so. It is FACT that Israel does not use Jewish law as the law of the land. Absolutely NOTHING you say and no website you quote will change that. Move on.
Your ignoring the specific references concerning this issue and presented nothing on the contrary. Again reread the references and respond.

The Jewish Law of the Sabbath/Sabbat is the Law of Israel regardless of how it is presently enforced. In Jeruselum tourism influences how it s observed.

I describe Jewish Law in Israel as Reformed Jewish Law blended with contemporary secular Law and International standards of Law.


Jewish law as such continues to be applied by the rabbinical courts within their jurisdiction in matters of personal status; it is applied also by the civil courts when called upon to deal with such matters concerning Jews. In other fields of law it is not applied as the law of the land. It serves, however, as an important source for the shaping of new rules of law, both by the Knesset (parliament) and in the creative decisions of the courts.

The following represents contemporary Law and International standards are reflected in the following:


In administrative law, legislation covers most subjects with which the legislature of a modern welfare state is concerned, including education, compulsory military service (for men and women), and national insurance. Particularly important for the economy of the country are the water law and the law on the encouragement of capital investments, both of 1959. Laws dealing with collective bargaining, labour exchanges, protection of wages, safety regulations, severance payment, and so on, are the nucleus of a code of labour law.


Developments in criminal law, torts, and evidence have been confined to piecemeal amendments of the pre-1948 law. Significant among these are the abolition of the death penalty for murder and the introduction of suspended prison sentences; a new way of taking evidence of minors in trials of sexual offenses; and liability of the state in torts. The rules of criminal procedure were consolidated in 1965: among other changes, preliminary inquiry was abolished; the civil procedure rules, mainly derived from their English counterpart, were also redrafted and revised.


In private law Israeli legislation includes a law on women’s equal rights; laws dealing with capacity and guardianship, adoption, and duties of maintenance between relatives; a law on the tenure of cooperative houses with separate ownership of flats; a standard contracts law; a comprehensive law of succession; laws on agency, guarantee, mortgage, and bailment; a defamation law and a patents law.
Please respond with references and not shouting rhetoric.

More references to follow . . .
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Correct. I have stopped reading your posts, because nothing you can say negates my points. I really don't want to continue arguing about it.
ostrich and man with his head in the sand

My references are based on actual references referring to the Laws and polices of the history of the Israel government, Again you have no references to back up your argument, just angry shouting rhetoric, and, of course a biased religious agenda.
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
You keep posting stuff as if it makes any difference. It doesn't. I don't even bother reading it. The points I've made are factual. You can find websites that say anything. You can find websites that say the earth is flat. It doesn't make it so. You can find websites that say Jews use the blood of Christian children to make matza. It doesn't make it so. It is FACT that Israel does not use Jewish law as the law of the land. Absolutely NOTHING you say and no website you quote will change that. Move on.
What you are saying doesn't make a Jot of difference to the Actual Reality. You are providing no evidence of your False/Fantasy Claims that Israel is a Secular State. The Jewish People are an Ethno-Religious People and their State is Ethno-Religious as Elohim/God Ordained.

The Jews in Israel see themselves as the Chosen People Of Elohim/God and the Government Governs according to this, as the Elohim/God Of Israel Commanded:


Judaism: The “Chosen People”

"In Judaism, "chosenness" is the belief that the Jewish people were singularly chosen to enter into a covenant with G-d. This idea has been a central one throughout the history of Jewish thought, is deeply rooted in biblical concepts and has been developed in talmudic, philosophic, mystical and contemporary Judaism.

Most Jews hold that being the "Chosen People" means that they have been placed on earth to fulfill a certain purpose. Traditional proof for Jewish "chosenness" is found in the Torah, the Jewish bible, in the Book of Deuteronomy (chapter 14) where it says: "For you are a holy people to Hashem your God, and God has chosen you to be his treasured people from all the nations that are on the face of the earth." In the Book of Genesis (chapter 17) it also written: "And I [G-d] will establish My covenant between Me and you [the Jewish people] and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you."..."

 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
blah blah blah. more stuff that doesn't overturn anything I've said.
Maybe not what @Elihoenai said about the Jewish religion, which is accurate, but concerning the nature of the State of Israel: My references are based on actual references referring to the Laws and polices of the history of the Israel government, Again you have no references to back up your argument, just angry shouting rhetoric, and, of course a biased religious agenda.
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
Deuteronomy 7:7

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:



The Identity of Israel has Nothing to do with Privileged Genetic Inheritance.

Israel's Identity is Attained by Continued Devoted Struggle To Prevail Over the Nations.

Believing In Privileged Genetic Inheritance has Benefits Only in the Temporal World and is a Sure Way to Never Get Saved.

In the Eyes of the Elohim/God of Israel The Greater is The Lesser.​
 

Via

New Member
I found this forum while searching for this topic and have consumed this entire thread just today. There are many interesting points, especially with the correlation between Israel past and present.
The verses in the Bible also help to understand the context, and it only takes a brief search to find a few
However, I am still in doubt. Are there any other mentions of Israel besides Christianity, Judaism and Islam?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I found this forum while searching for this topic and have consumed this entire thread just today. There are many interesting points, especially with the correlation between Israel past and present.
The verses in the Bible also help to understand the context, and it only takes a brief search to find a few
However, I am still in doubt. Are there any other mentions of Israel besides Christianity, Judaism and Islam?
Sure. For example, there are Roman documents that refer to Israel by its other name, Judea, and Roman sources on Jews and Judaism. I believe the oldest record of Israel is the Merneptah Steele, in which Egypt brags "Israel is no more," which is dated to 1205 BCE. We also have artifacts such as the ninth century BCE Tel Dan inscription that mentions the "House of David.." But not what we would call a lot.
 
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Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
I found this forum while searching for this topic and have consumed this entire thread just today. There are many interesting points, especially with the correlation between Israel past and present.
The verses in the Bible also help to understand the context, and it only takes a brief search to find a few
Welcome to the forum!

In Christian Gnosticism Israel Past, Present and Future is the Same. The Historical Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ and the Historical Israel does Not Save anybody. Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ is Israel.


The Unconditional Love statements in the article is False:

"...The relationship between God and Israel exemplifies unconditional love and care, which can be a source of comfort and inspiration in our personal relationships...."



Elohim's/God's Love and Care for Israel is Dependent on Israel Devotedly keeping the Covenant that Elohim/God made with Israel.






However, I am still in doubt. Are there any other mentions of Israel besides Christianity, Judaism and Islam?
It's a good thing that you are in Doubt. In Christianity the Roman Catholic Church has Changed the Identity of a Christian in their Image. And those claiming to be Israel through Genetic Inheritance has Changed the Identity of Israel in their Image. There are no Real Christians or Israelis. Islam is controlled by the Roman Catholic Church. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are Left-Hand Path Religions.
 
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Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
Ecclesiastes 3:18

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.



Elohim/God sent Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ, Who Is Israel, to Teach the Way To Transcend the Beast. The Religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam embrace the Beast and are part of the Beasts Body.


The Nazis Attain to the Fullest Expression of the Beast Being Most Devoted.


"
God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him...." - Friedrich Nietzsche



The SS : Hitler’s Fanatical Killing Machine | FULL DOCUMENTARY

American Psycho Homeless Man Gets Stabbed (HD 1080P)


Christian Gnosticism is the Only Religion that Transcends the Beast Becoming Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ Who Is Israel.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
For those with access


is well written and reasonably comprehensive. Unfortunately, this likely means that neither @IndigoChild5559 nor @shunyadragon will appreciate it. ;)
Yes, I disagree, because it negates the actual facts of the nature of the government of Israel. The misuse of the word "secular" as in the oxymoron secular Zionism, and secular Jews. I have not at present have access to the whole article, but based on what I have read it is enough.

Secular - denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.
"secular buildings"

From the source:

The sociological dimension focuses attention on Jews rather than Judaism, on relations between individuals and the state. If Israel is a state of and for the Jewish people, questions inevitably arise about its link to Jews who reside in other countries and are not Israeli citizens. Even more important is the question of whether those Muslim and Christian Palestinians who are citizens of the Jewish state, constituting approximately 18 per cent of the Israeli population, must of necessity have a political status different than, and ultimately inferior to, that of Jewish Israelis.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Is a grunt all you can come up with. ...
The dismissive response was all your post deserves.

In post #834 you wrote:

"The misuse of the word "secular" as in the oxymoron secular Zionism, and secular Jews."​

Rather than whining, why not endeavor to explain that [non]sentence? What, precisely, is the oxymoron and why?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The dismissive response was all your post deserves.

In post #834 you wrote:

"The misuse of the word "secular" as in the oxymoron secular Zionism, and secular Jews."​

Rather than whining, why not endeavor to explain that [non]sentence? What, precisely, is the oxymoron and why?
You just simply refer to the definition provided for secular. The Zionist movement is inherently religious by nature and represented a wide range of yes, religious Jews from different backgrounds. Zionism by its nature is a religious movement. Judaism is religion, and not in anyway secular by the definition provided.

The term secular is as defined as having NO religious basis. Judaism is a religion. I already referenced the article that non-Jewish citizens of Israel do not have the same rights as Jews. The problem of an oxymoron is clear by definition, secular cannot refer to a religious belief or movement,

Remember the Declaration of Independence defines Israel as a Jewish State. Internationally Israel is NOT recognized as a secular state as referenced.

I contradicted your false assertions concerning immigration with references immigration to Israel is restricted to Jews, and a specific definition for relatives and Jews from families that were converted to other religions and are willing to convert back to Judaism.
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The Zionist movement is inherently religious
Although religious Zionists do exist, so does the secular political philosophy of Zionism. Are you perhaps under the impression that all Jews are religious? You perhaps think that Herzl was a religious Jew?
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Although religious Zionists do exist, so does the secular political philosophy of Zionism. Are you perhaps under the impression that all Jews are religious? You perhaps think that Herzl was a religious Jew?
Herzl is a Jew and some degree religious. The Zionist movement is a religious Jewish movement, and yes the Jews vary in their beliefs. Secular by definition does not refer to religious movements,
 
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