Why are there still Monkeys?

[Bunyip]

You can think as you wish that the nature did it by chances and circumstances of billions of years, but that doesn't make it true, just a wishful thinking.

Clearly it makes far more sense than your belief that an even more complicated being just appeared by chance out of nowhere? That must be wishful thinking on a far grander scale.

If live can not have arisen without an intelligent being, than god appearing without one must be even more impossible.

Don't you ever hear about self-deception.

Yes,why to fear the day of judgement, you have already your excuses and which is that you thought the nature did it and that can be an enough and wise excuse to escape punishment.

 

[LuisDantas]

You can think as you wish that the nature did it by chances and circumstances of billions of years, but that doesn't make it true, just a wishful thinking.

Unless it is fact. Which it probably is. There is no shortage of evidence pointing in that direction, at least.

Don't you ever hear about self-deception.

Of course. One can hardly maintain dialog with Creationists for any length of time without meeting a lot of its results.

Yes,why to fear the day of judgement, you have already your excuses and which is that you thought the nature did it and that can be an enough and wise excuse to escape punishment.

But why would any atheist ever have a reason to fear the day of judgement?

I have heard that the Quran says that atheism is a sin, presumably even the biggest of sins. Does that figure into your surprising expectation that we would need "excuses"?

Atheism would not be a sin even if God did exist. I can assure you of that.

I'm not sure why the Quran would say otherwise... but if it does, it is just wrong, at least on that particular matter.

Atheists have no reason to fear God. As shouldn't anyone, really.

Is it possible that somehow we disbelievers have nevertheless more faith in the fairness of a God that we do not even believe to exist than many of you true believers?

Either way, if God is so unskilled as to be bothered by simple disbelief, then there is no point in caring about him anyway. Rest assured, I will spend no time whatsoever attempting to appease such a caricature of a God. And while it is very difficult to imagine what I would be like if I somehow believed in God's existence, I like to hope that if I did then I would be even more determinate not to think of God as being so petty and unwise.

 

[FearGod]

You have been polite so far, clearly you did not know what 'synthetic' means - why not just accept that you made a mistake instead of digging a deeper hole?

I was digging the hole for you.
Do you think life is that simple that it can be created by chance ?
You have brought the evidence yourself that it need intensive efforts of study and research to mimic life.

Well then that intelligent being would be even more unlikely to just pop into existence from nothing right? If something as simple as a bacteria can not come into existence without the involvement of an intelligent being - how could you expect me to believe that a far more complicated intelligent being just popped out of nowhere?

Because that is a supernatural.
Can you realize with your mind how the singularity became a huge universe ?

 

[FearGod]

Clearly it makes far more sense than your belief that an even more complicated being just appeared by chance out of nowhere? That must be wishful thinking on a far grander scale.

If live can not have arisen without an intelligent being, than god appearing without one must be even more impossible.

So you wish to think that it can be anything but not God.

 

[Bunyip]

I was digging the hole for you.
Do you think life is that simple that it can be created by chance ?

Yes, it seems far more likely than something MORE complex like a god just appearing by chance.

You have brought the evidence yourself that it need intensive efforts of study and research to mimic life.



Because that is a supernatural.
Can you realize with your mind how the singularity became a huge universe ?

Where did god come from?

 

[LuisDantas]

I was digging the hole for you.
Do you think life is that simple that it can be created by chance ?

I can't speak for Bunyip, but I certainly do. That is hardly a big deal.

You have brought the evidence yourself that it need intensive efforts of study and research to mimic life.

It takes a lot of effort to do a lot of things that happened spontaneously. As I said, this is a big planet with a lot of history. And life, by its nature, tends to self-replicate once it comes to exist.

Because that is a supernatural.
Can you realize with your mind how the singularity became a huge universe ?

You may believe in that if you want, but it is a lot of hubris to assume that everyone else must do the same.

 

[LuisDantas]

So you wish to think that it can be anything but not God.

There is not even a need to wish, but there is also a problem with attempting to explain things as being created by God. Namely, that it is not at all an explanation.

Saying that God created something teaches us nothing. It is ultimately just giving a name to a lack of knowledge, perhaps also lending it some sort of expectation of inherent purpose.

There is no merit in favoring such a path over that of actual research.

 

[FearGod]

Unless it is fact. Which it probably is. There is no shortage of evidence pointing in that direction, at least.

What evidence you have about the origin of our universe ?
Where did singularity come from ?

Of course. One can hardly maintain dialog with Creationists for any length of time without meeting a lot of its results.

How ?
would you explain it ?

We believe in what make sense.
Does it make sense to you that this universe came to existence out of nothing ?

But why would any atheist ever have a reason to fear the day of judgement?

Why to fear something that you don't see ?

I have heard that the Quran says that atheism is a sin, presumably even the biggest of sins. Does that figure into your surprising expectation that we would need "excuses"?

Excuses to do anything they wish, for example some wish to use drugs and feel happy in doing so and religion will be deterrent from doing so.

Atheism would not be a sin even if God did exist. I can assure you of that.

Depends what kind of atheism you're talking about.

Chinese Communist Cannibals eating virgin female flesh | Vietnamtv

I'm not sure why the Quran would say otherwise... but if it does, it is just wrong, at least on that particular matter.

Wishful thinking.

Atheists have no reason to fear God. As shouldn't anyone, really.

Wishful thinking

Is it possible that somehow we disbelievers have nevertheless more faith in the fairness of a God that we do not even believe to exist than many of you true believers?

Why you think God isn't fair ?

Either way, if God is so unskilled as to be bothered by simple disbelief, then there is no point in caring about him anyway. Rest assured, I will spend no time whatsoever attempting to appease such a caricature of a God. And while it is very difficult to imagine what I would be like if I somehow believed in God's existence, I like to hope that if I did then I would be even more determinate not to think of God as being so petty and unwise.

Do you think all people on earth are as kind as you and hence God wouldn't be fair for punishing evil people ?

 

[FearGod]

There is not even a need to wish, but there is also a problem with attempting to explain things as being created by God. Namely, that it is not at all an explanation.

Saying that God created something teaches us nothing. It is ultimately just giving a name to a lack of knowledge, perhaps also lending it some sort of expectation of inherent purpose.

There is no merit in favoring such a path over that of actual research.

Who said that there is no need to research,study and investigate the universe ?

So you are optimistic that one day we could know where did singularity come from ?

 

[FearGod]

I can't speak for Bunyip, but I certainly do. That is hardly a big deal.

Of course you can help him, no problema

It takes a lot of effort to do a lot of things that happened spontaneously. As I said, this is a big planet with a lot of history. And life, by its nature, tends to self-replicate once it comes to exist.

Why not God ?

You may believe in that if you want, but it is a lot of hubris to assume that everyone else must do the same.

Yes of course everyone is free for what to believe.

 

[Bunyip]

Of course you can help him, no problema

Yes, I agree with Luis on that point. It is perfeclty reasonable to imagine that life began by natural means.

Why not God ?




Yes of course everyone is free for what to believe.

 

[LuisDantas]

FearGod, a few mostly unrelated points.

1. There is no clear reason why a singularity (I'm not certain their existence has been established as fact), the origin of life and the origin of Homo Sapiens all should have connected origins. Even strictly naturalistic views of the Theory of Evolution only sort-of connect the last two.

You asked where a singularity come from. I obviously don't know, nor do I know that the question necessarily makes sense. Existence, far as I can tell, simply is. Hypothetizing a God who created it is not an explanation, and in fact does not explain anything at all. It is just an appeal to supernaturalism, which may or may not hold true.

From post #708:

Does it make sense to you that this universe came to existence out of nothing ?

Sure. It is not an explanation either, but I am not entitled to an explanation for existence. I'm not even convinced that existence needs any explanation.

For all I know, it is just a human oddity to feel such a need.



2. You seem to be very certain that we atheists should fear the afterlife. I must say that this is still very odd.

In post #708:

Why to fear something that you don't see ?

I fear lots of things that I don't see. But why should I ever fear God or an afterlife? That just makes no sense, unless God is unworthy of respect - and in that case I must not lend him importance by fearing him.


3. Belief in God does not necessarily make people behave better. Quite often it has the opposite effect.

I'm honestly not sure how much that answers this that you posted in #708:

Excuses to do anything they wish, for example some wish to use drugs and feel happy in doing so and religion will be deterrent from doing so.

Do you believe that atheists are weak against those dangers because we don't feel bound by religion?

That is... not very realistic, I must say. You judge us atheists to be far worse creatures than we really are. And I suspect that you also assume a lot that isn't really true about our theistic brothers, at that.

Ultimately, belief in God is simply not that mighty force for good that you want to believe it to be. It is a legitimate vocation that some people have... and a false need that some people want to see where it does not really exist.

Nor is it even a safe belief. People can and routinely do commit atrocities and attempt to justify them with their belief in being guided by God - or even in being God's Voice.

That danger, at least, we atheists are better protected against. And frankly, it far outweights whatever dangers there might be in disbelief, small and difficult to find as they may be.


4. The Quran is wrong in saying that atheism is a sin. It really is simple as that, and you are wasting your time attempting to convince myself otherwise. The only thing you can attain by trying is diminishing my appreciation of the wisdom and sincerity of Islam.

Actually, you are also insulting the very God you claim to believe in. You are saying that he is not even respectable by human parameters, and therefore demonstrably not a true god at all!

Still from #708:

Do you think all people on earth are as kind as you and hence God wouldn't be fair for punishing evil people ?

I don't really think a lot about that, but I can assure you that any God that even bothers to find out whether people are believers before deciding whether or how much to punish people is a blasphemy, a false god, an enemy of religion. If he exists at all, that is.

Who said that there is no need to research,study and investigate the universe ?

Creationism, for that is what it ultimately is: the insistence that the truth should be denied, pretended unknown, or simply lied about shamelessly.

It is of course unfortunate that such a shameful movement is named Creationism, which is to some degree a misnomer. But the facts are what they are.

So you are optimistic that one day we could know where did singularity come from ?

No, not really. I simply don't think of that as religiously significant, or even as a true need at all. Nor do I see how that would connect with the Theory of Evolution or even with the origin of life.

 

[Thief]

Making something up to fill in the gap does not help your argument.
Why not just skip the made up bull **** and go straight to goddidit?

God is not my creation.

I am His creation.

 

[FearGod]

FearGod, a few mostly unrelated points.

1. There is no clear reason why a singularity (I'm not certain their existence has been established as fact), the origin of life and the origin of Homo Sapiens all should have connected origins. Even strictly naturalistic views of the Theory of Evolution only sort-of connect the last two.

You asked where a singularity come from. I obviously don't know, nor do I know that the question necessarily makes sense. Existence, far as I can tell, simply is. Hypothetizing a God who created it is not an explanation, and in fact does not explain anything at all. It is just an appeal to supernaturalism, which may or may not hold true.

From post #708:

So you have evidence for nothing but God shouldn't be the answer.

Sure. It is not an explanation either, but I am not entitled to an explanation for existence. I'm not even convinced that existence needs any explanation.

For all I know, it is just a human oddity to feel such a need.

So we don't have the answer but that doesn't mean that God did it

2. You seem to be very certain that we atheists should fear the afterlife. I must say that this is still very odd.

In post #708:

We don't fear what we don't see, fear can be a reality once the afterlife is a reality and that can be only after death.

I fear lots of things that I don't see. But why should I ever fear God or an afterlife? That just makes no sense, unless God is unworthy of respect - and in that case I must not lend him importance by fearing him.

Do you fear punishment if you see it as reality in the afterlife ?

3. Belief in God does not necessarily make people behave better. Quite often it has the opposite effect.

I'm honestly not sure how much that answers this that you posted in #708:

Yes i know not all atheists are bad and not all theists are real believers

Do you believe that atheists are weak against those dangers because we don't feel bound by religion?

Not all atheists.

That is... not very realistic, I must say. You judge us atheists to be far worse creatures than we really are. And I suspect that you also assume a lot that isn't really true about our theistic brothers, at that.

Not all theists are real believers,many are hypocrites.
Not all atheists are bad, some converted to theism.

Ultimately, belief in God is simply not that mighty force for good that you want to believe it to be. It is a legitimate vocation that some people have... and a false need that some people want to see where it does not really exist.

Nor is it even a safe belief. People can and routinely do commit atrocities and attempt to justify them with their belief in being guided by God - or even in being God's Voice.

That danger, at least, we atheists are better protected against. And frankly, it far outweights whatever dangers there might be in disbelief, small and difficult to find as they may be.

God never asks us to do bad deeds.

4. The Quran is wrong in saying that atheism is a sin. It really is simple as that, and you are wasting your time attempting to convince myself otherwise. The only thing you can attain by trying is diminishing my appreciation of the wisdom and sincerity of Islam.

I don't know why you see it as wrong.
To you,yes it is wrong because you don't believe that God does exist

Actually, you are also insulting the very God you claim to believe in. You are saying that he is not even respectable by human parameters, and therefore demonstrably not a true god at all!

Still from #708:

How is that ?

I don't really think a lot about that, but I can assure you that any God that even bothers to find out whether people are believers before deciding whether or how much to punish people is a blasphemy, a false god, an enemy of religion. If he exists at all, that is.

Believers can be punished too.

Creationism, for that is what it ultimately is: the insistence that the truth should be denied, pretended unknown, or simply lied about shamelessly.

I don't think so, if there is a strong evidence then why to deny it.

It is of course unfortunate that such a shameful movement is named Creationism, which is to some degree a misnomer. But the facts are what they are.

Creationists believe that the universe was created by a conscious being whereas evolutionists have no answers other than randomness and chances.

No, not really. I simply don't think of that as religiously significant, or even as a true need at all. Nor do I see how that would connect with the Theory of Evolution or even with the origin of life.

So you don't believe about God's existence regardless of evidences, Just God doesn't make sense to you and it can be anything else but not God.

 

[idav]

Creationists believe that the universe was created by a conscious being whereas evolutionists have no answers other than randomness and chances.

Think about this. Creationists believe on faith, they propose an answer where there really is none.

Secondly most evolution believers or naturalists I have ever spoke to have a propencity toward determinism so your statement is blatenly false and not even mostly true.

 

[LuisDantas]

I will try to come back to most of your post later, but these points stand out:

Creationists believe that the universe was created by a conscious being

That they do. And so do many non-Creationists, due to an unfortunate habit of calling "Creationism" that which is in reality just the denial of the Theory of Evolution.

Despite a popular but completely unfounded misconception, there is nothing at all in the Theory of Evolution, or even in Abiogenesis (the idea that life developed spontaneously) that states or even hints that there is no Creator God. I fully expect and accept that many firm believers in a Creator God will accep the ToE as well. Why shouldn't they?

whereas evolutionists have no answers other than randomness and chances.

That, however, is simply not even close to being true. We have about a century of research, evidence and experiments, and quite a few answers by now. So much so that whole professional careers - very successful ones at that - have been created based on them, in fact.

So you don't believe about God's existence regardless of evidences,

I have never met good evidence for the existence of God, and I did meet plenty of evidence against it, so I really don't know what I would think about the matter if I ignored the evidence.

I suppose I would not care one way or another; the existence of God is simply not an important matter, not one that I must answer at all.

Just God doesn't make sense to you and it can be anything else but not God.

The God of Ibrahim is indeed one that I don't see as making much sense. It is one of the very few that I state outright not to exist.

As for "it" being anything else but God, I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Maybe you are simply disagreeing with me when I say that claiming Divine Creation is not really an explanation for anything?

 

[FearGod]

I will try to come back to most of your post later, but these points stand out:

That they do. And so do many non-Creationists, due to an unfortunate habit of calling "Creationism" that which is in reality just the denial of the Theory of Evolution.

The theory doesn't say why man should be existed but just happen to appear due to chances whereas i see human to be evolved by a conscious being and planned to be so.

Despite a popular but completely unfounded misconception, there is nothing at all in the Theory of Evolution, or even in Abiogenesis (the idea that life developed spontaneously) that states or even hints that there is no Creator God. I fully expect and accept that many firm believers in a Creator God will accep the ToE as well. Why shouldn't they?

Yes they do accept evolution but not due to randomness and chances

That, however, is simply not even close to being true. We have about a century of research, evidence and experiments, and quite a few answers by now. So much so that whole professional careers - very successful ones at that - have been created based on them, in fact.

I have never met good evidence for the existence of God, and I did meet plenty of evidence against it, so I really don't know what I would think about the matter if I ignored the evidence.

Which evidences that you got that refute God's existence.?

I suppose I would not care one way or another; the existence of God is simply not an important matter, not one that I must answer at all.

For you and other atheists,yes true

The God of Ibrahim is indeed one that I don't see as making much sense. It is one of the very few that I state outright not to exist.

Whereas billions believe otherwise.

As for "it" being anything else but God, I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Anything other than God that started this universe.
Don't you think that there should be a starting point or it was done by magic.

Maybe you are simply disagreeing with me when I say that claiming Divine Creation is not really an explanation for anything?

Did you have any other explanation than it can be anything but not a supernatural being, it can started by a stone which came out of nothing but not God,right

 

[LuisDantas]

The theory doesn't say why man should be existed but just happen to appear due to chances whereas i see human to be evolved by a conscious being and planned to be so.

Fair enough. You do believe in a Creator God. That is fine. For all I know it is the truth, as well.

I have no issue with your belief. I just don't share of it. That really does not say anything about you or me, except that you believe in a Creator God and I do not.

The Theory of Evolution does indeed say nothing about why man should exist. It does not have phylosophical or theological meaning, nor ambitions on those lines. It does not attempt to deny whatever answers those who find the "why" important might find for that question.

Yes they do accept evolution but not due to randomness and chances

It is possible that your understanding of the role of randomness and chance in Evolution is mistaken. Evolution, even by the most hardcore atheistic perspective possible, is not random. The mutations are random, but the selection is directed by environmental circunstances.

Which evidences that you got that refute God's existence.?

Most of them are very personal and would not necessarily make sense for anyone else. But one of the main ones is the simple observation that this world does not exist in a way that I would find compatible with the existence of a benevolent God in the Abrahamic mold.

Of course, it is possible that I am simply wrong, or that God is not very Abrahamic-like. It matters little to me; I'm simply not very inclined to believe in God.

For you and other atheists,yes true

There isn't much of a relation that I can see. I personally don't think whether God exists should be important to anyone, regardless of whether they ultimately are theists or atheists.

Of course, quite a lot of people disagree with me on this regard, theists and atheists both.

Whereas billions believe otherwise.

Indeed. That is a fact that causes me no end of amusement and surprise. But not at all one to give me reason to believe or to attempt to believe in that God.

Anything other than God that started this universe.

I don't know whether the universe had a start at all. It is something of a moot question to me, with little to no practical value.

All the same, saying that God started this universe is not an explanation either. It is just giving a name to a lack of explanation. Some people might think of it as an explanation, I suppose. I am not one of those.

Don't you think that there should be a starting point or it was done by magic.

No, I don't know that there was a starting point. Maybe there was; I would not know.

I don't believe in magic, but I will point out that belief in a Creator God is belief that it was done by magic, far as I can understand it. Divinely-meant magic is still magic.

Did you have any other explanation than it can be anything but not a supernatural being, it can started by a stone which came out of nothing but not God,right

God is whatever one defined God as being, so I have no meaningful answer to that.

 

[Thief]

Fair enough. You do believe in a Creator God. That is fine. For all I know it is the truth, as well.

I have no issue with your belief. I just don't share of it. That really does not say anything about you or me, except that you believe in a Creator God and I do not.

The Theory of Evolution does indeed say nothing about why man should exist. It does not have phylosophical or theological meaning, nor ambitions on those lines. It does not attempt to deny whatever answers those who find the "why" important might find for that question.



It is possible that your understanding of the role of randomness and chance in Evolution is mistaken. Evolution, even by the most hardcore atheistic perspective possible, is not random. The mutations are random, but the selection is directed by environmental circunstances.



Most of them are very personal and would not necessarily make sense for anyone else. But one of the main ones is the simple observation that this world does not exist in a way that I would find compatible with the existence of a benevolent God in the Abrahamic mold.

Of course, it is possible that I am simply wrong, or that God is not very Abrahamic-like. It matters little to me; I'm simply not very inclined to believe in God.




There isn't much of a relation that I can see. I personally don't think whether God exists should be important to anyone, regardless of whether they ultimately are theists or atheists.

Of course, quite a lot of people disagree with me on this regard, theists and atheists both.



Indeed. That is a fact that causes me no end of amusement and surprise. But not at all one to give me reason to believe or to attempt to believe in that God.




I don't know whether the universe had a start at all. It is something of a moot question to me, with little to no practical value.

All the same, saying that God started this universe is not an explanation either. It is just giving a name to a lack of explanation. Some people might think of it as an explanation, I suppose. I am not one of those.




No, I don't know that there was a starting point. Maybe there was; I would not know.

I don't believe in magic, but I will point out that belief in a Creator God is belief that it was done by magic, far as I can understand it. Divinely-meant magic is still magic.




God is whatever one defined God as being, so I have no meaningful answer to that.

I don't believe in magic either.
But I suspect cause and effect are two items that cannot be parted.

I place Spirit first as life is not beget of dead substance.

 

[Bunyip]

I don't believe in magic either.
But I suspect cause and effect are two items that cannot be parted.

I place Spirit first as life is not beget of dead substance.

Coause and effect are not universal, it is not a law.