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Why are we allowed to suffer?

sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Koldo said:
Prove it.
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sigh. We perceive joy because we have perceived something other than joy. If joy is the only thing that exists then it is perceived as normal and therefore unexceptional. You drop a brick on your foot you feel joy. You eat ice cream you feel joy. Where's the distinction?
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Demonslayer said:
Bunk. How about take the top 10 most painful diseases, or the ones that affect infants, and get rid of those. We'd still have suffering like shark bites and ankle sprains against which we can judge joy like craft beer and Game of Thrones. But no babies born with severe painful deformities resulting in their infantile deaths. Sounds OK?

And yes, we absolutely should do everything we can to eliminate suffering, and are trying to. Our best and brightest are constantly trying to eliminate suffering through medical advances every day.

Your idea is that Jonas Salk should have left Polio alone because, after all, eliminating suffering eliminates joy? False dichotomy, and beyond some armchair philosophy, untrue. There is no more polio, but we still know what it's like and how painful it was and how children died from it. We have history to compare things to.



Doesn't mean I need to stick my hand in molten lava to know what a cool glass of iced tea feels like.



Again with the false dichotomy. We can eliminate a ton of pain, without eliminating every single instance of pain, or the entire sensation of pain. Yes we should eliminate pain
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Pain is a perception. One persons pain is anothers ecstasy. Where do you make the distinction?
 
Koldo

Koldo

Outstanding Member
sandy whitelinger said:
sigh. We perceive joy because we have perceived something other than joy. If joy is the only thing that exists then it is perceived as normal and therefore unexceptional. You drop a brick on your foot you feel joy. You eat ice cream you feel joy. Where's the distinction?
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The absence of joy doesn't entail suffering. There could exist just varying degrees of joy.
 
Demonslayer

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
sandy whitelinger said:
We perceive joy because we have perceived something other than joy.
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But this ignores gradation and frankly it's a very rudimentary way to look at things. We could eliminate 1000 kinds of suffering and still know joy. We eliminated polio and we still know joy. When we eliminate infant-onset diabetes and Down's Syndrome, we will still know joy.

If we figure out a way to stop the 25,000 stillborn babies that crush the hearts and souls of American parents every year, you can bet we would still know joy. Joy will not disappear as we work towards eliminating suffering. Leaving a baby in a ditch with stinging ants all over it because you're worried about the disappearance of the feeling of joy is absurd. Your premise is flawed.
 
Demonslayer

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
sandy whitelinger said:
Pain is a perception. One persons pain is anothers ecstasy. Where do you make the distinction?
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How many hydrocephalus babies do you know that are ecstatic about their condition. How many folks have you watch die of pancreatic cancer? How many of them said "this is AWESOME!"

You're being obtuse. Intentionally or not is the only thing I'm still unclear about.
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Demonslayer said:
But this ignores gradation and frankly it's a very rudimentary way to look at things. We could eliminate 1000 kinds of suffering and still know joy. We eliminated polio and we still know joy. When we eliminate infant-onset diabetes and Down's Syndrome, we will still know joy.

If we figure out a way to stop the 25,000 stillborn babies that crush the hearts and souls of American parents every year, you can bet we would still know joy. Joy will not disappear as we work towards eliminating suffering. Leaving a baby in a ditch with stinging ants all over it because you're worried about the disappearance of the feeling of joy is absurd. Your premise is flawed.
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The op concept seems to be to eliminate all suffering though.
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Demonslayer said:
How many hydrocephalus babies do you know that are ecstatic about their condition. How many folks have you watch die of pancreatic cancer? How many of them said "this is AWESOME!"

You're being obtuse. Intentionally or not is the only thing I'm still unclear about.
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Since pain is a perception and a value judgement then you are proposing to eliminate perception.
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Koldo said:
I find myself unable to comprehend what point you are trying to make with this post.
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Well since there is no suffering am I to assume that the previous causes of suffering are ok? For example a brick falls off a building and hits you in the head and leaves you the mental equivalent of a two month old. Is that ok because you felt no pain or suffering?
 
Luciferi Baphomet

Luciferi Baphomet

Lucifer, is my Liberator
MattMVS7 said:
Some people value suffering.
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Because some people are far more interested in letting god control them. Sometimes they don't even realize that they are suffering.

MattMVS7 said:
Some people would say that we are here to learn and grow and that suffering is for our personal learning and development. If this is so, then that is no God at all. That is no loving caring God at all. You don't realize the torment that others go through. Many have lost all joy and meaning in their lives and resort to suicide.
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Sometimes some people take christianity way to seriously and are afraid they will end up in "hell". They are also afraid to open their minds and to see what is really going on in their lives. In a way some are afraid to open their mind because they are worried that god will get mad at them. They basically live through fear and letting god control them.

That is how I see it.
To me their is no peace and love in christianity at all.
 
Etritonakin

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
MattMVS7 said:
I am asking this question if there really is an eternal blissful afterlife. I personally am agnostic and don't know if there is a God and an afterlife. But if there is an eternal blissful afterlife, then why aren't we all born up there where we can live forever happy and not have any suffering and misery in our lives?

Some people value suffering. But others do not and are completely miserable. They resort to suicide. There is no reason for such people to be here and suffer like that. There is everything wrong with suffering. I have struggled with depression and my life has lost all joy and meaning. You don't realize just how much my life has been taken away from me.

Some people would say that we are here to learn and grow and that suffering is for our personal learning and development. If this is so, then that is no God at all. That is no loving caring God at all. You don't realize the torment that others go through. Many have lost all joy and meaning in their lives and resort to suicide.

There is no reason for this. There is no reason for innocent people to suffer like this. They are not evil people out harming and tormenting others, so there is no need for them to be here and suffer. They should of been born in heaven (the eternal blissful afterlife) and just stayed there for all eternity where they can be forever happy and never have to be suicidal and miserable.

The only reason why I think we are here and suffer is because this universe came about through random chance and that what happens to us in life just simply happens and nothing more. That there is no grand reason for any of it.
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A perfect and blissful existence was consistently rejected by many.

The point of this experience is very much that suffering is unnecessary -because we can be given access to the tree of life -which includes and requires obedience to God. Presently we are living within a creation given over to whatever we do to it, whatever happens to happen -and sometimes situations which God causes to produce certain end results.

It will produce a state of mind which will acknowledge the necessity for God's oversight, government and power. Presently, our ability to adversely affect the creation is limited to the Earth.

Our destiny is not simply to be given eternal life in a perfect environment -though the earth will be renewed and the present works burned up -but to learn to act perfectly and to create perfect environments ourselves.

The bible states that the heavens/universe -as well as the earth -were all formed to be inhabited -and that we will eventually be given bodies with creative power similar to that which allowed the Word (who became Christ) to create the universe, the worlds, the earth and make all things subject to him.
That means we will eventually have the ability to affect major cosmic and planetary events by having a much more powerful and direct interface.

If we were given some other perfect environment before we were prepared, we would ruin it as we ruin the Earth. If we had more creative power, it could also be used to cause more destruction -so we are first experienced no the necessity for God's complete knowledge, power over all things, and obedience to his laws and government which are necessary to order eternity.
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Koldo said:
What is the subject of our conversation now? It appears to no longer be 'suffering'.
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Try and follow along. I am wondering if in the event suffering, ie. pain, is done away with then is just the sense of pain removed or are all the events that could cause pain be done away with as well?
 
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