Why are we allowed to suffer?

[sandy whitelinger]

<sigh>
Here is an exchange between me and you on page 2 of this thread:

You: What is wrong with suffering?
Me: What's wrong with suffering is that it's unpleasant, by definition.
You: Why is unpleasant wrong?
Me: Drop a brick on your foot and it will quickly become apparent.

Which bit don't you understand?

Which part of explaining why suffering is wrong. Please try and explain that in a coherent manner with no implications.

 

[Skwim]

We are discussing aspects of one's perceptions and I find it difficult if not impossible to qualify them as either right or wrong.

Actually, we're discussing the object of one's perception: suffering, which is quite different.

suffering
the state of a person or thing that suffers.

suffers
1. to undergo or feel pain or distress:
2. to sustain injury, disadvantage, or loss:
3. to undergo a penalty, as of death: ​

So the question remains, is suffering desirable or undesirable state of being? If suffering is desirable

desirable

1. adjective 1. worth having or wanting; pleasing, excellent, or fine:​

then it would be right

right
1.morally good, justified, or acceptable.
synonyms: just, fair, proper, good, upright, righteous, virtuous, moral, ethical, honorable, honest;

wrong
1. the antithesis of right​

to support and/or encourage it. If suffering is undesirable then it would be wrong to support and/or encourage it. IOW . . . regarding right and wrong within the context of desirability, do you feel it is right ( morally good, justified, or acceptable: just, fair, proper, good,) that someone undergo or feel pain or distress; sustain injury, disadvantage, or loss; or undergo a penalty, as of death? Or do you feel it's wrong (unjust, unfair, improper, not good) that someone undergo or feel pain or distress; sustain injury, disadvantage, or loss; or undergo a penalty, as of death?

"I feel it is morally good, justified, or acceptable (right) that people suffer."​

"I feel it is not morally good, justified, or acceptable (wrong) that people suffer."


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[sandy whitelinger]

LOL, that's the reason you give for torture being bad? Trespassing is a violation of personal property rights. Torture is a lot worse than cutting across the corner of someone's lawn.

My body is my property. Let's not discuss my lawn. Please try and stay on topic and explain why suffering is wrong in a coherent manner.

 

[Koldo]

My body is my property. Let's not discuss my lawn. Please try and stay on topic and explain why suffering is wrong in a coherent manner.

That's not even the topic.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Which part of explaining why suffering is wrong. Please try and explain that in a coherent manner with no implications.

The question you asked is "what is wrong with suffering", which I clearly answered. If you drop a brick on your foot it will hurt, pain is unpleasant. That's actually a trivial example, there are of course much worse kinds of suffering both physical and mental, I can give you a list of examples if you really need it.

Now you are moving the goalposts by asking "why suffering is wrong?", introducing a moral dimension. Make your mind up!

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Actually, we're discussing the object of one's perception: suffering, which is quite different.

suffering
the state of a person or thing that suffers.

suffers
1. to undergo or feel pain or distress:
2. to sustain injury, disadvantage, or loss:
3. to undergo a penalty, as of death: ​

So the question remains, is suffering desirable or undesirable state of being? If suffering is desirable

desirable

1. adjective 1. worth having or wanting; pleasing, excellent, or fine:​

then it would be right

right
1.morally good, justified, or acceptable.
synonyms: just, fair, proper, good, upright, righteous, virtuous, moral, ethical, honorable, honest;

wrong
1. the antithesis of right​

to support and/or encourage it. If suffering is undesirable then it would be wrong to support and/or encourage it. IOW . . . regarding right and wrong within the context of desirability, do you feel it is right ( morally good, justified, or acceptable: just, fair, proper, good,) that someone undergo or feel pain or distress; sustain injury, disadvantage, or loss; or undergo a penalty, as of death? Or do you feel it's wrong (unjust, unfair, improper, not good) that someone undergo or feel pain or distress; sustain injury, disadvantage, or loss; or undergo a penalty, as of death?

"I feel it is morally good, justified, or acceptable (right) that people suffer."​

"I feel it is not morally good, justified, or acceptable (wrong) that people suffer."


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​

​

Ok good, you have made the aspects of suffering clear. Now why is it wrong?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

That's not even the topic.

My lawn or why inflicting suffering on another persons body is wrong?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Please try and stay on topic and explain why suffering is wrong in a coherent manner.

Please stop moving the goalposts. You got a clear answer to "what is wrong with suffering", now you have shifted to "why suffering is wrong". Are you really claiming not to know the answer? Does it not bother you that other people suffer? You think they enjoy it or something?

 

[Koldo]

My lawn or why inflicting suffering on another persons body is wrong?

Both.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

The question you asked is "what is wrong with suffering", which I clearly answered. If you drop a brick on your foot it will hurt, pain is unpleasant. That's actually a trivial example, there are of course much worse kinds of suffering both physical and mental, I can give you a list of examples if you really need it.

Now you are moving the goalposts by asking "why suffering is wrong?", introducing a moral dimension. Make your mind up!

No, you described a situation where pain happens. You tried to imply something rather than explain it. Try explaining.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

No, you described a situation where pain happens. You tried to imply something rather than explain it. Try explaining.

Drop a brick on your foot.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Both.

Then why did you ask why inflicting pain on others is wrong?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Drop a brick on your foot.

I've done worse. Now, why is it wrong?

 

[Koldo]

Then why did you ask why inflicting pain on others is wrong?

Where did I ask that? Who did ?

 

[Demonslayer]

Please try and stay on topic and explain why suffering is wrong in a coherent manner.

I don't think the question is being asked in a coherent manner, why answer it that way?

Is suffering "wrong?" Why use the word wrong, instead of bad? You can't label something "wrong" when it has nothing to do with moral issues. Pancreatic cancer, multiple sclerosis, hydrocephalus, spina bifida and children being eaten by alligators at Disney World aren't "wrong" are they? They just are.

They are seriously bad though, aren't they? Painful? Heartbreaking? Sad? They can prevent children from living a normal life. They can break families apart, end lives early, or cause a person to live out their years in constant pain. Alzhiemers disease isn't wrong, is it? But can you imagine what it's like when the love of your life, the person you spent the last 50 years with looks at you with no idea who you are? I'd say that's very, very bad isn't it?

So if you had any of those things, and I could get rid of it with a snap of my fingers, what would you say about me? What if I could prevent spina bifida in 1 million children, but didn't, because I was busy watching Game of Thrones? Am I a good person if I do that?

Your whole question is phrased incorrectly as a "gotcha" to avoid the questions being asked about suffering, if you want my opinion. So here's the answer you're begging for...suffering isn't 'wrong' any more than AIDS or being eaten by a shark is 'wrong'

Now that I've given you an answer, will you perhaps answer some of the other questions me and others have asked you?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I've done worse. Now, why is it wrong?

Your question doesn't make sense and I think you are playing a silly game.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I don't think the question is being asked in a coherent manner, why answer it that way?

Is suffering "wrong?" Why use the word wrong, instead of bad? You can't label something "wrong" when it has nothing to do with moral issues. Pancreatic cancer, multiple sclerosis, hydrocephalus, spina bifida and children being eaten by alligators at Disney World aren't "wrong" are they? They just are.

They are seriously bad though, aren't they? Painful? Heartbreaking? Sad? They can prevent children from living a normal life. They can break families apart, end lives early, or cause a person to live out their years in constant pain. Alzhiemers disease isn't wrong, is it? But can you imagine what it's like when the love of your life, the person you spent the last 50 years with looks at you with no idea who you are? I'd say that's very, very bad isn't it?

So if you had any of those things, and I could get rid of it with a snap of my fingers, what would you say about me? What if I could prevent spina bifida in 1 million children, but didn't, because I was busy watching Game of Thrones? Am I a good person if I do that?

Your whole question is phrased incorrectly as a "gotcha" to avoid the questions being asked about suffering, if you want my opinion. So here's the answer you're begging for...suffering isn't 'wrong' any more than AIDS or being eaten by a shark is 'wrong'

Now that I've given you an answer, will you perhaps answer some of the other questions me and others have asked you?

Finally coherence. Now as I've stated before. We perceive our universe based on duality. We know hot because of cold yadayada. With the elimination of suffering we eliminate joy. Shall we? Some people suffer over a hangnail while other find excruciating pain to be exquisite. Where do we draw a distinction? Or as you say suffering is pain. Let's eliminate pain. Now I can torture

 

[Demonslayer]

Your question doesn't make sense and I think you are playing a silly game.

She is playing a silly game based on her word choice.

She's trying to get people to ascribe and explain "wrongness" to things like suffering, infant-onset type 1 diabetes and stubbed toes. It's a "gotcha" question so when someone is eventually unable to explain why suffering is "wrong" she can say "see, there is nothing wrong with suffering so there is nothing to blame God for for allowing it."

It's pretty transparent if you ask me, but maybe others see it differently.

 

[Koldo]

With the elimination of suffering we eliminate joy.

Prove it.

 

[Demonslayer]

With the elimination of suffering we eliminate joy. Shall we?

Bunk. How about take the top 10 most painful diseases, or the ones that affect infants, and get rid of those. We'd still have suffering like shark bites and ankle sprains against which we can judge joy like craft beer and Game of Thrones. But no babies born with severe painful deformities resulting in their infantile deaths. Sounds OK?

And yes, we absolutely should do everything we can to eliminate suffering, and are trying to. Our best and brightest are constantly trying to eliminate suffering through medical advances every day.

Your idea is that Jonas Salk should have left Polio alone because, after all, eliminating suffering eliminates joy? False dichotomy, and beyond some armchair philosophy, untrue. There is no more polio, but we still know what it's like and how painful it was and how children died from it. We have history to compare things to.

We know hot because of cold yadayada.

Doesn't mean I need to stick my hand in molten lava to know what a cool glass of iced tea feels like.

Or as you say suffering is pain. Let's eliminate pain.

Again with the false dichotomy. We can eliminate a ton of pain, without eliminating every single instance of pain, or the entire sensation of pain. Yes we should eliminate pain