Why aren’t we learning?

[loverofhumanity]

1. I didn’t comment on feeling emotions, but acting emotionally.

2. You keep focusing on leaders and ignore the public who allows them to take power.

3. You lack any sort of understanding about human psychology and how humans are not machines that behave in ideal ways.

4. Of course wars should stop. You’ve never shown any interest in understanding shy war happens.

So your idealistic beliefs may be what most agree with you don’t have the knowledge to understand why conflict still happens. It’s not just leaders, it’s people who behave like animals because they lack reasoning skills.

Reasoning is a tool that can be both used and misused. The outcome of reasoning is dependent on the goal and motive. A person may reason that doing the wrong thing is in his best interests so reasoning alone won’t fix the world.

If people behave like animals it’s because they choose to. What guides reasoning? So a Muslim reasons Holy War is good for Islam then what reasoning do you replace it with?

There is both good reasoning and bad reasoning. Which moral standard or goal governs your reasoning? Everyone has a different view on what’s good and bad, right and wrong and moral and immoral and reasons along those understandings. So a religionist, an atheist , a critical thinker will use different baselines for their reasoning. Which reasoning is the right one? Some reason rape, oppression and killing is perfectly ok. So reasoning depends largely on the goal and motive and which goal and motive is the one we should be using?

 

[loverofhumanity]

What is your true contention? in one sentence you put wars and religions together. Are you making a case of causality? If that's so, can you tell me the biggest was in the history of mankind and how it's caused by religion?

Yet, I could be wrong about your assertion in the OP so could you clarify?

Anyway, you made another assertion that humanity is not processing spiritually but only materially. There are 7 or 8 billion human beings on earth. Thus, can you cite your quantitative research that gave you this assumption?

I was just pointing out the need for religions to work harder for world peace. I think they can have a very great influence on peace if they come together.

 

[Vinayaka]

1. I didn’t comment on feeling emotions, but acting emotionally.

2. You keep focusing on leaders and ignore the public who allows them to take power.

3. You lack any sort of understanding about human psychology and how humans are not machines that behave in ideal ways.

4. Of course wars should stop. You’ve never shown any interest in understanding shy war happens.

So your idealistic beliefs may be what most agree with you don’t have the knowledge to understand why conflict still happens. It’s not just leaders, it’s people who behave like animals because they lack reasoning skills.

It's a large question, this 'why people do such things?' A corollary would be to ask why some people go on internet forums to proselytize, despite being told by many that it's annoying, or dehumanizing. They ignore all the advice, and continue. Why? Can they not read? Have they no compassion?

There is a ton to study in human psychology. "Why can some people do autopsies, and I couldn't?" came to mind to me this morning. The friend I referred to earlier does them for a living.

 

[McBell]

According to the Baha'i Faith He is Baha'u'llah.

Didn't he die back in the late 1800's?
If so, who is the CURRENT "manifestation"?

Since you specifically specified 'according to the Baha'i faith', who is considered the current manifestation in other faiths? (Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Tao, etc.)

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Humanity has come a long way scientifically. We are able to reach for the stars and communicate instantly over thousands of miles.

Yet mankind has not advanced in the social or spiritual realms. Wars have plagued us for centuries and religions continue to conflict.

Why aren’t we learning lessons from our past? We have billions of religious people but no peace.

Why has humanity failed to progress socially and spiritually but only materially?

Part of the problem is that human nature is literally part of our biology, and evolution takes a long time to change it.

But the other part is the tendency for every generation to think it has things the worst, and if we could only go back to the good old days. This is often fueled by the mainstream media, which makes more money for their shareholders by presenting news designed to frighten or anger us.

The truth is, things are MUCH better today than they were, i.e., 1000 years ago, when you had violence on almost every street corner and no way to really find the perpetrators and bring them to justice, not to mention constant, constant war between countries. Think of all the recent gains we have made: children who report abuse and molestation are no longer slapped down and told to stop lying. Domestic violence is now prosecuted. Compare the wellbeing of women today compared to back in the 1800s. Consider how even the basic literacy rate is so much higher compared to in the past, and how this enables people to live better lives. Think about the laws that we now have making the work force safer, hours more reasonable, and wages higher. We could go on, if we just stop to think about it.

A good book to read on this is "The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined" by Steven Pinker. In this book, Pinker argues that, despite common perceptions, violence has been in decline over long stretches of history and that we are living in one of the most peaceful eras in human existence. He presents a wealth of data and historical analysis to support his claims that society is better now in terms of reduced violence and improved human well-being.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If so, who is the CURRENT "manifestation"?

Me. You should all hang on my every word.

 

[McBell]

Me. You should all hang on my every word.

Not enough rope to hang your every word,

 

[Twilight Hue]

I was just pointing out the need for religions to work harder for world peace. I think they can have a very great influence on peace if they come together.

I doubt there will be peace but I can see coexistence as being a thing.

 

[F1fan]

Reasoning is a tool that can be both used and misused. The outcome of reasoning is dependent on the goal and motive.

Reasoning is a process that seeks truth. It has a set of rules that allows users to make valid conclusions and judgments.

A person may reason that doing the wrong thing is in his best interests so reasoning alone won’t fix the world.

Like adopting a religion that includes prejudice against gays. That’s Baha’i and to my mind it invalidates itself as having any moral truth.

If people behave like animals it’s because they choose to.

Disagree. The only reason to behave like an animal is ignorance and lack of mental discipline.

What guides reasoning? So a Muslim reasons Holy War is good for Islam then what reasoning do you replace it with?

That’s not reasoning. It’s blind adoption of religious dogma, much in the same way Baha’i become bigots because that’s what their dogma states. No reasoning. No moral judgment. Just obedience to dogma. That’s what leads to war.

There is both good reasoning and bad reasoning.

No, there is only proper reasoning. The most skilled thinkers on this forum seldom disagree. That’s because they follow what the evidence suggests and reject ideas that lack evidence.

Which moral standard or goal governs your reasoning?

My own wits, via my moral sense. I accept gays as equal and support their equal rights. From what Baha’i believe they have to condemn gays, and have no freedom to disagree. Most religious people are empty agents that submit to a set of ideas. This is why they don’t allow themselves the freedom to be moral if a religion is discriminatory.

Everyone has a different view on what’s good and bad, right and wrong and moral and immoral and reasons along those understandings.

And you wonder how there’s war.

So a religionist, an atheist , a critical thinker will use different baselines for their reasoning.

Some theists are critical thinkers. Look at @metis. There are some atheists who have rather irrational political views. This is why debate is crucial.

Which reasoning is the right one? Some reason rape, oppression and killing is perfectly ok.

You don’t understand what reasoning is. You are confusing thinking and feeling with reasoning. Anyone with language ability can think, but reasoning is skilled thinking. That you don’t know this is a bad sign.

So reasoning depends largely on the goal and motive and which goal and motive is the one we should be using?

The motive is truth. This is why many theists who claim to have truth did not arrive at their beliefs through reasoning, but for some other motive, usually some emotional satisfaction snd meaning.

 

[Trailblazer]

Didn't he die back in the late 1800's?
If so, who is the CURRENT "manifestation"?

Yes, Baha'u'llah died in 1892, but Baha'is believe that He is the CURRENT Manifestation of God since He was the last one who has come to earth.

Since you specifically specified 'according to the Baha'i faith', who is considered the current manifestation in other faiths? (Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Tao, etc.)

I don't know. You'd have to ask them that question.
I do know that Christians believe that Jesus was the one and only Manifestation of God although most Christians believe that Jesus was God rather than a Manifestation of God.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yeah maybe it's a case of saying "we" then projecting ones own progress onto others. I've learnt bucket loads yet here I am being referred to in the OP title as "why aren't we learning" as though I never learnt anything in my view.

Yeah, and a lot of what "we" have learned came from the Baha'i Faith. There's plenty of good things in it. But is it the one and only way? That is must most of us, if not all of us, all believe in and follow their teachings in order for the world to be at peace?

I don't know if some of their ideas, that are supposedly from God, will work.

 

[CG Didymus]

Who is the current "manifestation"?

Oh, sorry... I assumed everyone knew that this thread is by a Baha'i, and that they believe their prophet, Baha'u'llah, is the "promised one" of all religions. He is the return of Christ for the Christians. He is the Messiah for the Jews. He is the Kalki Avatar for the Hindus. And the Maitreya for the Buddhists. And it goes on through all the other religions. Whoever was promised to return, he is the one.

But that's not all... We get a bonus prophet. They have two "promised ones." They have the Bab and Baha'u'llah. And supposedly "twin" manifestations were prophesied in all the Holy Books.

And it's not like they are a horrible religion. They want nothing but peace and unity for all people the world over. It's just I question a lot of their claims and beliefs. And it's only because one of those beliefs is that everything they say and teach is claimed to be the absolute truth from the one and only true God. Before jumping on board, I want to make sure and double-check those claims of theirs.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha’u’llah did say that if the Baha’is had done as they should have “the world would have been changed in His own lifetime “. So we may have made some progress but not enough to make a big difference yet.

Things like wars need to be settled through dialogue but that’s not happening. If anything conflicts and terrorism are increasing and spreading.

It’s like anything. People have got to want it bad enough to make it happen. The Baha’i plan works but it is not being embraced by enough people to make that much of a difference. Perhaps the illness may have to get far worse before the patient takes the medicine.

At all levels, there's people that will rob, cheat and kill or hurt others to get something. It's scary how many people in the U.S. are ready to follow one leader right into a war with the followers of the other leader.

But no one "leader" can ever seem to make everybody happy. And most of them, by the time they have been in office a while, lose support of even some of those that helped get them into power.

So, how do we get away from all that? Kings and presidents and whatever else people call their leaders. Even with the checks and balances that the U.S. has, still things don't work all that well.

How would it be different under the rule of the Baha'i Faith? There have already been religious leaders ruling some countries. They aren't perfect. And their beliefs, I don't think, were perfect. But they believed they were, and they imposed those religious laws, again... supposedly from God, on the people.

Several times I've asked about one of the first Baha'i recommendations... all the nations should disarm. I don't believe that will work. I don't trust that all nations will disarm. I wouldn't be surprised if a nation like the U.S. would have a stash of weapons put away... just in case.

Why do Baha'is think that will work?

 

[Link]

Oh, sorry... I assumed everyone knew that this thread is by a Baha'i, and that they believe their prophet, Baha'u'llah, is the "promised one" of all religions. He is the return of Christ for the Christians. He is the Messiah for the Jews. He is the Kalki Avatar for the Hindus. And the Maitreya for the Buddhists. And it goes on through all the other religions. Whoever was promised to return, he is the one.

But that's not all... We get a bonus prophet. They have two "promised ones." They have the Bab and Baha'u'llah. And supposedly "twin" manifestations were prophesied in all the Holy Books.

And it's not like they are a horrible religion. They want nothing but peace and unity for all people the world over. It's just I question a lot of their claims and beliefs. And it's only because one of those beliefs is that everything they say and teach is claimed to be the absolute truth from the one and only true God. Before jumping on board, I want to make sure and double-check those claims of theirs.

If we follow them, Satan will have his ways and they would give the world to the henchmen of Satan with no resistance (since they are totally blind to his henchmen). It's better we saddle up, understand tribulations will come, be patient for God's sake till the Mahdi (a) arrives. If we don't do this, there is no hope for the oppressed.

Bahais tend to take side of oppressors rather than oppressed.

 

[Link]

Me. You should all hang on my every word.

Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. (From Kitabal Itqan).


I dare you to say it then.

 

[CG Didymus]

I take the OP to mean why is spiritual progress so slow.

Part of the answer is readiness. Real progress means that the old structures must give way to new ones and people resist change, especially drastic change even if it's beneficial.

I got out of High School just in time for the Hippie movement. I thought it was great. Most all of us were ready and looking for spiritual truth. But there were so many options. I listened to Baha'is and Christians I listened to various Gurus. I dabbled in all of them.

Sorry to say, but for me, religions and spiritual paths aren't necessarily one. And some of them ended up being false and led by a conman. But one thing I do believe, and have mentioned a few times here, is that all of them pretty much work... as long as the person believes in it and follows it.

So, for all those paths that are taking people up to a better way and making them better, more spiritual people, then I can see how all of them can be seen as being good and true paths.

 

[Link]

So, for all those paths that are taking people up to a better way and making them better, more spiritual people, then I can see how all of them can be seen as being good and true paths.

This is making me think hard. If this is true, then there is no need of religion.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Reasoning is a tool that can be both used and misused.

I disagree. Reasoning, when done correctly, will always lead to greater truth. I think that what you are referring to is rationalization and poor reasoning. Just because people give reasons for things doesn't mean they have good logic.

 

[CG Didymus]

If we follow them, Satan will have his ways and they would give the world to the henchmen of Satan with no resistance (since they are totally blind to his henchmen). It's better we saddle up, understand tribulations will come, be patient for God's sake till the Mahdi (a) arrives. If we don't do this, there is no hope for the oppressed.

Bahais tend to take side of oppressors rather than oppressed.

Interesting that you say, "Satan", since they don't believe in Satan.

I hope they are not coming from some diabolical source. But I do question if they come from a one true God. Since religions can be so vague and contradictory, I'm perfectly fine with people just making guesses about spiritual truth. But Baha'is don't believe they are guessing, like so many other religions, they believe their truth is "The Truth". And that truth, they believe, came from God.

 

[Link]

Interesting that you say, "Satan", since they don't believe in Satan.

They don't believe in Angels either.