Why be against universal healthcare?

[Riverwolf]

No. Law abiding citizens should, and not the criminals.

No. They should make sure someone is actually disabled before sending them a check.

Very good.

Now that the discussion as to the ethics of criminals who are going to die anyway getting treatment when innocent little girls need them, or the occasional leaches taking advantage of an otherwise essential system not being an excuse to do away with said system, let's get back on the topic of universal health care, which ideally would cover neither the criminal nor the leach.

 

[Pagan_Patriot]

I never said they should get rid of the system completely. I'm just saying we should be careful with how we waste the money on people who don't really deserve it.

Well the word "universal" counts for everyone, so the criminal and the leach are included.

 

[Riverwolf]

I never said they should get rid of the system completely. I'm just saying we should be careful with how we waste the money on people who don't really deserve it.

Well the word "universal" counts for everyone, so the criminal and the leach are included.

Call it a misnomer.

"Universal healthcare" simply means tax-funded healthcare. Just like with other tax-funded systems, there would be exemptions.

If you prefer, call it tax-funded healthcare if "universal" is too inaccurate to what it's supposed to be.

'Cause some magazine model's breast enlargement should most definitely NOT be funded by taxpayer money.

 

[Pagan_Patriot]

So it's only for people who pay for it with taxes? If so, I guess that's fair, though I'm still wondering how much it'll cost each tax payer.

 

[Valjean]

There are different systems of universal coverage. Some are socialized, like Britain's. Paid for with taxes. Hospitals are owned by the government and doctors are government employees. Our VA is such a system.
Others use price controlled private insurance rather than taxes. Private hospitals, private doctors. France and Germany do it this way. We used to do it this way.
A few -- Canada, Taiwan, our Medicare -- are single payer. Private Hospitals and doctors. No need for insurance. Government simply picks up the bill.

You can google the figures. The US pays at least twice what any other country does on healthcare, and we have lousy results and poor coverage -- and nowhere else can a family be bankrupted with medical bills.

If you have the time watch this: Video: Sick Around the World | Watch FRONTLINE Online | PBS Video

 

[Pagan_Patriot]

I wish the OP was more clear on how it would be run. It would probably save us the argument.

 

[Riverwolf]

So it's only for people who pay for it with taxes? If so, I guess that's fair, though I'm still wondering how much it'll cost each tax payer.

1. Not just taxpayers, but everyone has access to emergency room care, and legal residents have access to needed treatment as determined by a doctor.

2. It would probably cost less than military expenditures, so there's not even any need to raise taxes; simply cut half of what already goes to the military and put it into the health system.

 

[Riverwolf]

I wish the OP was more clear on how it would be run. It would probably save us the argument.

I know the OP quite well. I believe she would have had Canada's system, or something very akin to it, on her mind when she wrote it.

 

[Pagan_Patriot]

Alright. I'm just worried about these things when people take advantage of them. If we want to cut the military to do it, we'd probably have to close a lot of bases overseas. And of course, emergency care is a must.

 

[Riverwolf]

Alright. I'm just worried about these things when people take advantage of them. If we want to cut the military to do it, we'd probably have to close a lot of bases overseas. And of course, emergency care is a must.

Frankly, screw those bases. The Cold War is over, so there's no more need for them.

 

[Pagan_Patriot]

Frankly, screw those bases. The Cold War is over, so there's no more need for them.

A new one might be starting very soon.

 

[Riverwolf]

A new one might be starting very soon.

Then perhaps this one should be ended prematurely and save the poor neolithic tribes from this fiery Godwar, who want nothing to do with any of this first world nonsense.

 

[YmirGF]

Well, living in enlightened Canada, where we have had universal health care for decades, I just ran into one snag in this kind of system. You see, innocently I listened to my GP saying he was sending me for an MRI because the CT scan didn't show him enough about my shoulder/neck area to draw any good conclusions. So far, so good. I got a letter from the hospital in the nearby town with the brand new machine and the letter had in BOLD letters, at the top. "Please carefully note the YEAR of your appointment." It then went on to say that my appointment was scheduled for Feb. 2014. Nice, eh... only 8 months to go. *sigh* (Granted, if I wanted to spend $25,000, I could go to Seattle and have it done next week.)

 

[Riverwolf]

Well, living in enlightened Canada, where we have had universal health care for decades, I just ran into one snag in this kind of system. You see, innocently I listened to my GP saying he was sending me for an MRI because the CT scan didn't show him enough about my shoulder/neck area to draw any good conclusions. So far, so good. I got a letter from the hospital in the nearby town with the brand new machine and the letter had in BOLD letters, at the top. "Please carefully note the YEAR of your appointment." It then went on to say that my appointment was scheduled for Feb. 2014. Nice, eh... only 8 months to go. *sigh* (Granted, if I wanted to spend $25,000, I could go to Seattle and have it done next week.)

Yes, that is a problem with universal health care. In fact, I actually heard an even worse horror story about a kid with autism who had about four years of waiting before getting any sort of treatment. (And with kids and autism, such delays are unacceptable.)

Therefore, I would definitely be against doing away with insurance-funded/privately-funded health care altogether. It's just that there'd be a universal option for those who can't afford insurance.

 

[Valjean]

But problems needing immediate attention get immediate attention, and just because there are waits in one country doesn't mean it's a general feature of single payer systems.
Even with insurance, in the US it's not unusual to wait a month for an appointment for a non-urgent problem.

 

[Copernicus]

Well, living in enlightened Canada, where we have had universal health care for decades, I just ran into one snag in this kind of system. You see, innocently I listened to my GP saying he was sending me for an MRI because the CT scan didn't show him enough about my shoulder/neck area to draw any good conclusions. So far, so good. I got a letter from the hospital in the nearby town with the brand new machine and the letter had in BOLD letters, at the top. "Please carefully note the YEAR of your appointment." It then went on to say that my appointment was scheduled for Feb. 2014. Nice, eh... only 8 months to go. *sigh* (Granted, if I wanted to spend $25,000, I could go to Seattle and have it done next week.)

I had an MRI scan done in the Seattle area a few months ago. I had to wait maybe a week or two. Medicare paid for most of it. I had supplemental insurance pick up the rest. So I ended up paying just a few dollars out of pocket. However, I pay roughly $400/month to Medicare and a Medicare supplemental policy, and I get a snowstorm of bills from the provider and insurers, because they are all at war over how much to charge and who to charge, this being America. So I get bills that tell me I owe thousands of dollars, except that I don't have to pay it, because the doctors agreed to pay a fraction of the bill (how generous!) and accept the lowly pittance that Medicare would allow. In other words, if I didn't have Medicare, my bank account would be drained, if I chose to have health care. BTW, the MRI showed a spinal cyst, which I am now being treated for.

This is government health care, American style. Medicare pays private doctors and hospitals. I choose my doctors and treatment options. It is far more complicated than it needs to be, but it works. And there are no 8-month delays. Originally, the Democrats wanted the Medicare system to cover everyone. Republicans blocked that and managed to get it limited to the people who most need it--retirees. You pay for it through taxes over an entire lifetime of work. Indeed, when I earn money, I still pay Medicare taxes in addition to my out-of-pocket monthly payments.

BTW, YmirGF, you could get that MRI in Bellingham. The bridge collapse still makes travel to Seattle difficult from Vancouver.

 

[YmirGF]

BTW, YmirGF, you could get that MRI in Bellingham. The bridge collapse still makes travel to Seattle difficult from Vancouver.

Actually, I could go in to Vancouver and pay for the test there, so no need to invade the US of A, however doing so would not be covered by our "universal" healthcare system as it is a private firm.

 

[Copernicus]

Actually, I could go in to Vancouver and pay for the test there, so no need to invade the US of A, however doing so would not be covered by our "universal" healthcare system as it is a private firm.

And this is exactly the point. You still have access to the great solution that Americans have imposed upon themselves. If you are rich enough, you can afford better health care. You just have to pay for more expensive supplemental insurance or pay the bill directly out of pocket. However, Canada provides some reasonable level of health care. Like any health care system, it does not cover every cure or meet everyone's needs. I hope you do not have to wait 8 months for that MRI. This seems to be a rare case where the national health care provided to Americans under Medicare is better than the Canadian system. My MRI was available quickly, and it led to a quick diagnosis. In both cases, it is "socialized medicine" to blame or to praise.

 

[YmirGF]

And this is exactly the point. You still have access to the great solution that Americans have imposed upon themselves. If you are rich enough, you can afford better health care. You just have to pay for more expensive supplemental insurance or pay the bill directly out of pocket. However, Canada provides some reasonable level of health care. Like any health care system, it does not cover every cure or meet everyone's needs. I hope you do not have to wait 8 months for that MRI. This seems to be a rare case where the national health care provided to Americans under Medicare is better than the Canadian system. My MRI was available quickly, and it led to a quick diagnosis. In both cases, it is "socialized medicine" to blame or to praise.

I do agree and in all my 57 years, I have never got the short straw in relation to universal health care, till now, of course. I intend to ask my doctor if he has any influence to get the period shortened. I would really like 100% use of my left arm again, as 70% isn't much fun.

 

[Alceste]

I wish the OP was more clear on how it would be run. It would probably save us the argument.

Here's how it works in the rest of the world: you go see your doctor whenever you feel the need, get treated, and you don't get a bill. Simple as that. And it costs half as much as your system. Imagine that.