Why can't I go to heaven?

[InChrist]

So what's the point of this life if the next is so much better? Why couldn't/ didn't God just create us in the "new creation"

You must choose to trust Christ and become a new creation anything less than you using your will violates the definition of God's character of love. Love must be freely given and received, it cannot be forced and He will not make you trust Him and become a new creation.

 

[9Westy9]

You must choose to trust Christ and become a new creation anything less than you using your will violates the definition of God's character of love. Love must be freely given and received, it cannot be forced and He will not make you trust Him and become a new creation.

So God cares more about us making a 'free' choice than our well being?

 

[InChrist]

So God cares more about us making a 'free' choice than our well being?

From my understanding of God I'd say that He considers our freewill to be an important part of our well being. Now, back to the original subject, do you want to go to heaven and have eternal life?

 

[look3467]

So what's the point of this life if the next is so much better? Why couldn't/ didn't God just create us in the "new creation"

Thief and I have a slight difference in view so I will answer you with what I believe is the truth of the matter.

You nor I would exist as free individual entities with a name were we not born first in the flesh to be tested.

In this world believers as well as unbelievers alike must insure testing /tribulations.
Reason is because we are not robots.

Blessing, AJ

 

[9Westy9]

From my understanding of God I'd say that He considers our freewill to be an important part of our well being. Now, back to the original subject, do you want to go to heaven and have eternal life?

In which case why did he choose to give us the amount of free will we have rather than more or less free will. For example, I can't fly so I can't make a choice as to whether I want to fly or not. Also how is free will important to our well being? If anything it endangers us more than anything. Robots can't hurt themselves if they are programmed right.

and it depends. As Heaven is depicted as a perfect place and hell is depicted as the opposite I'd obviously prefer Heaven.

Thief and I have a slight difference in view so I will answer you with what I believe is the truth of the matter.

You nor I would exist as free individual entities with a name were we not born first in the flesh to be tested.

In this world believers as well as unbelievers alike must insure testing /tribulations.
Reason is because we are not robots.

Blessing, AJ

I see. So this test, that involves lots of pain and suffering, is meant to achieve what? Praise? Adoration? Fear?

Also why does he test both believers and non-believers? and what are the entry requirements for the new earth?

My problem seems to be that we don't need free will, to make evil choices, in order to accept God. All we need is free will to make a genuine choice rather than free will to commit evil. so why does he need evil? Why not restrict free will a bit more?

Also sorry for all the questions

 

[InChrist]

In which case why did he choose to give us the amount of free will we have rather than more or less free will. For example, I can't fly so I can't make a choice as to whether I want to fly or not. Also how is free will important to our well being? If anything it endangers us more than anything. Robots can't hurt themselves if they are programmed right.

People often try to do things they can't do. Some have even tried to fly and have paid the price. That is the risk God took in giving humans freewill. But He did so because robots can't think or love. God is love and we are made in His image, although our image is now messed up by sin.

and it depends. As Heaven is depicted as a perfect place and hell is depicted as the opposite I'd obviously prefer Heaven.

Then if you prefer heaven you must get there according to God's way, because getting there any other way is one of those things you can't do.

 

[Thief]

In which case why did he choose to give us the amount of free will we have rather than more or less free will. For example, I can't fly so I can't make a choice as to whether I want to fly or not. Also how is free will important to our well being? If anything it endangers us more than anything. Robots can't hurt themselves if they are programmed right.

and it depends. As Heaven is depicted as a perfect place and hell is depicted as the opposite I'd obviously prefer Heaven.

I see. So this test, that involves lots of pain and suffering, is meant to achieve what? Praise? Adoration? Fear?

Also why does he test both believers and non-believers? and what are the entry requirements for the new earth?

My problem seems to be that we don't need free will, to make evil choices, in order to accept God. All we need is free will to make a genuine choice rather than free will to commit evil. so why does he need evil? Why not restrict free will a bit more?

Also sorry for all the questions

Step back from the discussion a little more....

God creating other spirits, as if subdividing Himself would indeed make a more accurate reflection....but....
The conversation would be much like talking to a mirror.
If your immediate reflection did something unexpected....!

So Man is a creature that is supposedly an image of God.
But God is spirit.
What then is the reflection supposed to 'look' like?

It's more to the way you think and feel.
God would be the First in mind and heart.
He would be alone if not for creating others 'like' Himself.

Is He capable of doing harm? (evil).....of course.
Does He do so without thought or cause?...apparently not.
Does He hope the same for you?

 

[9Westy9]

People often try to do things they can't do. Some have even tried to fly and have paid the price. That is the risk God took in giving humans freewill. But He did so because robots can't think or love. God is love and we are made in His image, although our image is now messed up by sin.

I think the main problem is that the choice isn't obvious. It isn't a accept God and be saved but more a accept this god rather than the other ones. Then there's the fact that there's no real good evidence for the existence of god(s) imho. So some people don't reject god because they don't want to but because they can't justify even believing in god. Also robots can think

[youtube]wACltn9QpCc[/youtube]
Robot with a biological brain - YouTube

Then if you prefer heaven you must get there according to God's way, because getting there any other way is one of those things you can't do.

The question is which way is God's way?

Step back from the discussion a little more....

God creating other spirits, as if subdividing Himself would indeed make a more accurate reflection....but....
The conversation would be much like talking to a mirror.
If your immediate reflection did something unexpected....!

So Man is a creature that is supposedly an image of God.
But God is spirit.
What then is the reflection supposed to 'look' like?

It's more to the way you think and feel.
God would be the First in mind and heart.
He would be alone if not for creating others 'like' Himself.

Is He capable of doing harm? (evil).....of course.
Does He do so without thought or cause?...apparently not.
Does He hope the same for you?

So if we're a reflection of God then God is just as flawed as us?

 

[Thief]

The question is which way is God's way?

So if we're a reflection of God then God is just as flawed as us?

You almost got it.

If the reflection is accurate, it will respond as anticipated.
Nothing unique.
And like your reflection in the mirror, no life of it's own.

But what if your image did not behave as you do?
Would it not be flawed?

God is thought to be perfect....we are not.
If we ever become perfect?....could we ever be distinguished from God?

Have you considered?...you are flawed....on purpose.

 

[9Westy9]

You almost got it.

If the reflection is accurate, it will respond as anticipated.
Nothing unique.
And like your reflection in the mirror, no life of it's own.

But what if your image did not behave as you do?
Would it not be flawed?

God is thought to be perfect....we are not.
If we ever become perfect?....could we ever be distinguished from God?

Have you considered?...you are flawed....on purpose.

interesting idea. What is God's justification for making flawed beings?

 

[Thief]

interesting idea. What is God's justification for making flawed beings?

It's not a point of justification.

Catch up with me....if the copy of spirit you make is identical to you....
it is a mirror image with no distinction.
You would be talking to yourself.
And in effect you would be in two places at the same time!

For the 'other' spirit to be unique it needs to separate of you.
It needs a life of it's own.
And that starting point, would need be far less than heaven.

Here we are.

 

[Muffled]

Why would anyone want to go to the christian heaven? Though it is likely better than the christian hell.
For me, I'll enjoy what I have here while I know I have it.

I went to Heaven for a rest from the evils of this world. In my previous life an invading army shot me in the back (I died) and raped my sister and mother.

 

[Muffled]

Then why not re-create man into a being that can't commit evil?

That is the case in The Kingdom of God after the Rapture not so much a recreation but an erasing of the memory of evil. He also does that for those in Heaven. Interestingly enough he restores some of the memory of evil when a person next enters life in a time of evil.

 

[Muffled]

God did just what you suggested! That was the whole purpose for the coming of the Son of God.
Jesus could commit no evil for in Him is our new creation, don't you know.
If you take Jesus out of the equation you would have just this one existence and after that....
Oblivion of nothingness.

The very question you asked is what the new creation is all about.

Now in Jesus we can become new creatures ourselves where death and evil no longer has any power over us.

Blessings, AJ

There is a lot of slip between the cup and the lip. It is not that our nature changes as it does in the KoG but rather that as long as we can allow it, Jesus abides in us and we remain as mere spectators.

This is incorrect. Take Jesus out of the equation and we return to our previous state.

 

[9Westy9]

It's not a point of justification.

Catch up with me....if the copy of spirit you make is identical to you....
it is a mirror image with no distinction.
You would be talking to yourself.
And in effect you would be in two places at the same time!

For the 'other' spirit to be unique it needs to separate of you.
It needs a life of it's own.
And that starting point, would need be far less than heaven.

Here we are.

and so he created us with the capacity for evil, that he doesn't have. Why not just create us with different interests, hobbies or personalities?

That is the case in The Kingdom of God after the Rapture not so much a recreation but an erasing of the memory of evil. He also does that for those in Heaven. Interestingly enough he restores some of the memory of evil when a person next enters life in a time of evil.

I was mainly referring to in this life. He makes us flawed and then punishes us for our flaws (except a select few)

 

[Thief]

and so he created us with the capacity for evil, that he doesn't have. Why not just create us with different interests, hobbies or personalities?


I was mainly referring to in this life. He makes us flawed and then punishes us for our flaws (except a select few)

God has the capacity for evil. His motivations are more reserved.

And we are different in interests, hobbies, and personalities.

He is not punishing us for fault.
But He might be willing to do evil, to upset evil on our part.

 

[look3467]

My problem seems to be that we don't need free will, to make evil choices, in order to accept God. All we need is free will to make a genuine choice rather than free will to commit evil. so why does he need evil? Why not restrict free will a bit more?>>>9Westy9

Free will requires it be tested between two opposing elements, Good and evil, in order to allow for choice.

If the ability to chose is not there, then there cannot be the possibility of free will.

Free will requires independent ability; reasoning is "as gods".

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

It's not a point of justification.

Catch up with me....if the copy of spirit you make is identical to you....
it is a mirror image with no distinction.
You would be talking to yourself.
And in effect you would be in two places at the same time!

For the 'other' spirit to be unique it needs to separate of you.
It needs a life of it's own.
And that starting point, would need be far less than heaven.

Here we are.

Great analogy Thief!

Blessings, AJ

 

[9Westy9]

God has the capacity for evil. His motivations are more reserved.

And we are different in interests, hobbies, and personalities.

He is not punishing us for fault.
But He might be willing to do evil, to upset evil on our part.

So capacity for evil isn't a flaw? Also would you say that it's possible for God to do evil as he has the capacity?

Free will requires it be tested between two opposing elements, Good and evil, in order to allow for choice.

It does? I can choose to eat coco pops or frosties in the morning, is one of them an evil choice?

 

[look3467]

It does? I can choose to eat coco pops or frosties in the morning, is one of them an evil choice? >>>

Your not getting the point about the reason for the ability to even choose between coco pos and frostiest.

The word "choice " and the ability to choose had a consequence attached to it which caused us to be as gods.

And that could not happen had God not given us that ability.

Blessings, Aj