Why can't Lucifer ever be redeemed?

[godnotgod]

doesn't matter....
this thread needs a scapegoat

If they weren't my sins, why should I seek redemption?

 

[godnotgod]

More like demons which are subject to Satan

Demons you experienced in the flesh, or some spiritual experience?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

in that case.....as we stand into chaos.....

I hope you do well

Without too many exceptions, god requires worship.
Donald Trump does not even require worship.

 

[Ingledsva]

It may not be. In the Bible however he is known as Lucifer and when cast down to earth his name changed to Satan meaning accuser or slanderer which he is, go figure right?. In Ezekiel 24:13-15 God describes Lucifer in this way; 13"You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared. 14"You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. 15"You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.… This is when Lucifer became proud of his power and beauty and wanted to exalt himself above God. When he sinned in his pride, that caused him to fall from grace. Because of his hate for God at this point, he wanted to ruin Gods perfect creation by deceiving Eve, then Adam and we know Satans history from there as a roaring lion seeking someone to devour. In the NT, Satan wasnt testing Jesus to see if He was ready, he was testing Him to try to get Him to sin and thereby destroying the ability for anyone to spend all of eternity in heaven. Satan's attitude is, If I cant be in heaven, neither can you! He has tried many times throughout history to kill the lineage of Jesus to keep Him from coming on the scene in the first place because he knew that if Jesus were to show up, that would mean hope for anyone who chooses, will be able to have an eternity in heaven. The Jews missed his first coming, but they wont miss his second coming for sure! They will realize when God opens their eyes that they have been duped by Satan in the Antichrist.

I think you mean 28:13-15 - There is NO Lucifer there!

And if you had read those in context - you would have seen they are NOT about Satan/Lucifer.

Eze 24:2 Son of man, write thee the name of the day, even of this same day: the king of Babylon set himself against Jerusalem this same day.

Eze 26:15 Thus saith the Lord GOD to Tyrus; Shall not the isles shake at the sound of thy fall, when the wounded cry, when the slaughter is made in the midst of thee?

Eze 26:17 And they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and say to thee, How art thou destroyed, that wast inhabited of seafaring men, the renowned city, which wast strong in the sea, she and her inhabitants, which cause their terror to be on all that haunt it!

Eze 26:18 Now shall the isles tremble in the day of thy fall; yea, the isles that are in the sea shall be troubled at thy departure.

Eze 26:19 For thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall make thee a desolate city, like the cities that are not inhabited; when I shall bring up the deep upon thee, and great waters shall cover thee;

Eze 27:3 And say unto Tyrus, O thou that art situate at the entry of the sea, which art a merchant of the people for many isles, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O Tyrus, thou hast said, I am of perfect beauty.

Eze 27:4 Thy borders are in the midst of the seas, thy builders have perfected thy beauty.

Eze 27:22 The merchants of Sheba and Raamah, they were thy merchants: they occupied in thy fairs with chief of all spices, and with all precious stones, and gold.

Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Eze 28:4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

As you can see when kept in context - it is NOT about Satan/Lucifer.

"Ezekiel 28:14


Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth,.... In allusion to the cherubim over the mercy seat, which covered it with their wings; and which, as the ark of the testimony and all the vessels of the tabernacle were anointed, were so likewise; in all probability the king of Tyre is called a "cherub" because of his wisdom and power; "anointed", because of his royal dignity; and "that covereth", because of his office, which was to protect his people;..." Gill's Exposition of the entire Bible.






*

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

In Ezekiel 24:13-15 God describes Lucifer in this way;

When I click on the link, it doesn't say that at all, though.

he wanted to ruin Gods perfect creation by deceiving Eve

The serpent asked a question. That is not lying. The serpent tells her the real reason God doesn't want them to eat from the tree and letting them know the truth is the reason it got punished.

In the NT, Satan wasnt testing Jesus to see if He was ready, he was testing Him to try to get Him to sin and thereby destroying the ability for anyone to spend all of eternity in heaven.

Jesus' sins:
Using powers for shallow and meaningless reasons.
Vandalizing/killing other people's livelihoods (pigs, trees, kiosks).
Dishonoring his parents on multiple occasions, right up until death.
Bigot -- no Jew has to guilt trip him nearly as much as the gentiles do. Does not believe gentiles are capable of faith until they teach him otherwise.
Says people who call others fools are going to hell. Calls people fools ...
Doesn't follow the Sabbath.
If one believes the stories where he calls himself God, breaks the first commandment ....

Satan's attitude is, If I cant be in heaven, neither can you!

I can go wherever God wants. Satan isn't in control.

The Jews missed his first coming, but they wont miss his second coming for sure!

To be fair, messiahs were a dime a dozen in those days, just as they are now. We have plenty of prophets/messiahs/gods on this very forum ... do YOU take their word for it?

Where do you get this from? What is the authority by which you make this statement as though it were true?

So they answered Jesus, “We don’t know.” Then he said, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.

This is great. I'll give your OT analogy to another analogy because it fits your context. You are a business owner. You are doing well. You hire an employee thats says to you, I dont like the way you run your business, I can do better, therefore, I'm going to take over your business and run it the way I see fit. You as the owner says, no, this is my business that I created, you're fired! Get it?
With reference to your "NT: Jesus specifically tells us to be like God." Where do you get that from and in what context are you quoting?

If the owner is in the red, maybe the smarter employee SHOULD be running things. I like co-op ideas, personally. Everyone gets a job and has to accept responsibility except apparently the owner, who can't be fired unless there's a Board of Directors or something.

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. -- Jesus is telling you to be like God, which is something God didn't want in all the OT.

You have no clue what hell is going to be like, keep going in the same direction you are and you will find out when you die that your words here are absolutely ludicrous! Problem at that point will be, NO TAKE BACKS!

Spoiled children should never tell those who suffer they don't know what suffering is. I've been to hell lots of times by now. Satan bores me. He's a horror movie monster and all you have to do is stop being afraid of him and he has no power over you.

Satan does to Job the same thing he does to everyone especially those who put their trust in Jesus and that is this: Satan is saying to God over and over, if you take away everything that Job has, his wealth, kill his family and strike him with cancer or whatever Satan was allowed to do to Job, his health, he will curse you to your face!

And God, in His immaturity and insecurity, has to put up with an immature bet?

Why can't satan be redeemed? Do you want him to be?

Sure. It would amuse me. It will also tell me just how loving God really is. Of course, I also see that Satan has been "demonized" by Christianity moreso than Judaism did, so really, Satan ought to be asking Christianity for forgiveness for bearing false witness.

What purification ritual?

You didn't mention one? I wouldn't have brought it up had you not...

The theme for the New Testament is "forgiveness".

Well, Revelation puts THAT theory to rest, with billions of people dying because apparently Jesus' salvation move didn't take.

ook up in the right corner of my posts, it says my religion.

Don't know it.

Correct, but for those angels in high positions who are guilty of treason against the universe, you do.

But the point is apparently Satan was rebelling against real or perceived sins committed in heaven, and that information can affect sentencing, for God sees what is in the heart, does He not?

You're trying to apply a human context to the universe. Humans don't run the universe.

But it's depressing to think God runs the Universe in ways far dumber than any human system.

Just curious, where did the Urantia Book come from? Who authored it and what is their authority to its truth?
Never mind, WOW! Did a little investigating. Are you aware of this?

I mean, I'm not going to take it seriously either, but we all must remember that Jews thought Jesus was but one of many religious scams too.

"The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God."

Per Jesus, those who call others fools are going to hell, so while Jesus is there, he can meet up with the author of that verse.

Now... if you would only make sense.

Sorry. Still looking for proof he was there, like "Satan wz here" graffiti in the garden or something.

You should make that into a series.

I'm writing a book, Testaments of El (working title). El is upset His kids, including Baal and Yahweh, etc, have screwed things up, and it's been angering all the other gods across the globe, because deities were supposed to accept just their jurisdictions but Yahweh and Baal wanted to run the entire planet, so the apocalypse stops being about humans and will be something like Ragnarok. However, Satan has been trying to protect God and help Him fix things so that war will be unnecessary (since now it matters as it affects gods, not just humans), but there is another war brewing as "tricksters" (shape-shifting entities who like to stick it to the Man, so to speak) are tired of gods' racist attitudes towards them, so they ask Satan to participate ...

Anyway, that's as far as I am right now ... need divine inspiration.

 

[ensnaturae]

Unless it has nothing to do with being flawed. Perhaps it's Gods' "living diagram" of what God thinks of sin. So it's all heaped onto the one scapegoat and burned in the hot fiery furnace, with any that might accompany him. Who knows.

The whole concept of sin, guilt, blame ..reward and punishment..is *ungodly* ..Sin and blame etc are very weighty HUMAN concepts. Used for billions of years to attempt to reach understanding, meaning and control..in what appears to be a hostile environment. If you think instead of "sin" as ignorance. Lack of information. An ever ongoing, sometimes larger, sometimes smaller..list of errors..and do away with the religious dogma of "sin", only then will you begin to have an inkling of the generosity, the loving heart and soul of Jesus himself. You are forgiven. Theres no devil, there's no hell. Heaven is now, and the experience of heaven, real and immediate. That's to say heaven is 'with Love'...in innocence, with forgiveness of the kind Jesus gave to those who rejected, tortured, ridiculed, and eventually murdered him. You don't know what you did. You and I, all of us.. have insufficient wisdom to live a life without errors. The purest ...most error free lives might be the simplest... This is the eternal thread to be found in almost all religions, the discovery of, the path to, the being a part of, being ONE with...god. The written words of Jesus, have been torn to pieces and reworked, like an old coat. He wrote not a letter, not a syllable, of any page of any book. He didn't need to. Do you not think you would know, for certain, if you had met this man, brave enough to confront armed men who despised, hated, him? How would you have felt...and you may have seen the images and videos of men and women being stoned, or hacked, or burned to death...how would you have felt..how would you feel...if that was YOU...your life hanging by a thread...if someone was brave enough to stand up to religious dogmatists..and say.. No! Wait...
Unarmed, risking his own life...as the report suggests of his defence of the woman, about to be stoned to death ?.
He was alone, but not alone, for he had *god*, he had love. In his heart and soul and mind..his whole being..was with God. That's the love that is heaven, with god, in god .
..as you are, as I am. Sin is ignorance. Dogma makes it into the tragedy of blame and punishment.
(And the mythology of devils and angels, boiling oil, punishment, and the forever outcast, god is love. Love rejects no one. Love is for you.)

 

[Vancouversailor]

I'm fond of Allan Kardec's book "the spirits book". In that book the Spirits tell him that every Spirit will eventually be purified and made perfect. Wouldn't you prefer it if that was the case? Maybe it is. How do you know it isn't? In the Scriptures, sometimes God changes his mind. Why can't all spirits eventually be redeemed?

The answer is quite simple: Lucifer doesn't exist, at least not in the Christian bible, and there is no redemption for a non-existent entity no matter that Catholic priests have tried to scare the daylights out of their congregations with threats of this non existent Lucifer and the equally non existent and undocumented place they call hell, in reality a word meaning grave.

 

[jtartar]

I'm fond of Allan Kardec's book "the spirits book". In that book the Spirits tell him that every Spirit will eventually be purified and made perfect. Wouldn't you prefer it if that was the case? Maybe it is. How do you know it isn't? In the Scriptures, sometimes God changes his mind. Why can't all spirits eventually be redeemed?

PopeADope,
It seems that anyone who is perfect, who sins against God will not be forgiven. A perfect angel, because he has a perfect brain he knows exactly what he is doing, and knows what it means in the future. When a perfect angel rebells against God, he will never change,because he is able to understand completely what he has done.
When a perfect person, angel or human sins against God they probably have sinned against the Holy Spirit, which is unforgivable, Matthew 12:31,32.

 

[Kenny]

Sorry. Still looking for proof he was there, like "Satan wz here" graffiti in the garden or something.

Ohhhhhh

Keep looking, I'm sure you will find something at some point in time

 

[Kemosloby]

The whole concept of sin, guilt, blame ..reward and punishment..is *ungodly* ..Sin and blame etc are very weighty HUMAN concepts. Used for billions of years to attempt to reach understanding, meaning and control..in what appears to be a hostile environment. If you think instead of "sin" as ignorance. Lack of information. An ever ongoing, sometimes larger, sometimes smaller..list of errors..and do away with the religious dogma of "sin", only then will you begin to have an inkling of the generosity, the loving heart and soul of Jesus himself. You are forgiven. Theres no devil, there's no hell. Heaven is now, and the experience of heaven, real and immediate. That's to say heaven is 'with Love'...in innocence, with forgiveness of the kind Jesus gave to those who rejected, tortured, ridiculed, and eventually murdered him. You don't know what you did. You and I, all of us.. have insufficient wisdom to live a life without errors. The purest ...most error free lives might be the simplest... This is the eternal thread to be found in almost all religions, the discovery of, the path to, the being a part of, being ONE with...god. The written words of Jesus, have been torn to pieces and reworked, like an old coat. He wrote not a letter, not a syllable, of any page of any book. He didn't need to. Do you not think you would know, for certain, if you had met this man, brave enough to confront armed men who despised, hated, him? How would you have felt...and you may have seen the images and videos of men and women being stoned, or hacked, or burned to death...how would you have felt..how would you feel...if that was YOU...your life hanging by a thread...if someone was brave enough to stand up to religious dogmatists..and say.. No! Wait...
Unarmed, risking his own life...as the report suggests of his defence of the woman, about to be stoned to death ?.
He was alone, but not alone, for he had *god*, he had love. In his heart and soul and mind..his whole being..was with God. That's the love that is heaven, with god, in god .
..as you are, as I am. Sin is ignorance. Dogma makes it into the tragedy of blame and punishment.
(And the mythology of devils and angels, boiling oil, punishment, and the forever outcast, god is love. Love rejects no one. Love is for you.)

You're outright rejection of the concept of sin indicates it's probably not a human invention. Who would invent that? "Repent and be baptized into the name of Jesus for forgiveness of sins" , Godly love is giving you a way out of punishment for sin.

 

[Thief]

Without too many exceptions, god requires worship.
Donald Trump does not even require worship.

no after life for you?

 

[Thief]

If they weren't my sins, why should I seek redemption?

so....you prefer to be left standing..wherever it may be, that you fall...

yeah right...no after life for you....

 

[McBell]

Ohhhhhh

Keep looking, I'm sure you will find something at some point in time

May we borrow your glasses?

 

[Kenny]

May we borrow your glasses?

SUURE!! - I got them at the age of 28 and they have a red blood stain to them. It sure helped my vision!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

no after life for you?

So much of "us" is tied to absolutely nothing more than biology and our culture and our own experiences that a believe in some sort of "after life" is not my first conclusion.

 

[Rapture Era]

To be fair, messiahs were a dime a dozen in those days, just as they are now. We have plenty of prophets/messiahs/gods on this very forum ... do YOU take their word for it?

Let me ask you something, how many of these prophets/messiahs/gods on this very forum or have lived in the past have ever claimed to have created the universe, the moon and the stars, this planet and all life on this planet including human beings, has sacrificed themselves and died for you and have the authority to forgive sins? Maybe you can list a few or many?

 

[cjj]

I'm fond of Allan Kardec's book "the spirits book". In that book the Spirits tell him that every Spirit will eventually be purified and made perfect. Wouldn't you prefer it if that was the case? Maybe it is. How do you know it isn't? In the Scriptures, sometimes God changes his mind. Why can't all spirits eventually be redeemed?

If you understand who Lucifer is aka as Satan, Adversary etc. as revealed in the biblical scriptures you would know why his fate is sealed.

 

[Super Universe]

When I click on the link, it doesn't say that at all, though.


The serpent asked a question. That is not lying. The serpent tells her the real reason God doesn't want them to eat from the tree and letting them know the truth is the reason it got punished.


Jesus' sins:
Using powers for shallow and meaningless reasons.
Vandalizing/killing other people's livelihoods (pigs, trees, kiosks).
Dishonoring his parents on multiple occasions, right up until death.
Bigot -- no Jew has to guilt trip him nearly as much as the gentiles do. Does not believe gentiles are capable of faith until they teach him otherwise.
Says people who call others fools are going to hell. Calls people fools ...
Doesn't follow the Sabbath.
If one believes the stories where he calls himself God, breaks the first commandment ....


I can go wherever God wants. Satan isn't in control.


To be fair, messiahs were a dime a dozen in those days, just as they are now. We have plenty of prophets/messiahs/gods on this very forum ... do YOU take their word for it?


So they answered Jesus, “We don’t know.” Then he said, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.


If the owner is in the red, maybe the smarter employee SHOULD be running things. I like co-op ideas, personally. Everyone gets a job and has to accept responsibility except apparently the owner, who can't be fired unless there's a Board of Directors or something.

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. -- Jesus is telling you to be like God, which is something God didn't want in all the OT.


Spoiled children should never tell those who suffer they don't know what suffering is. I've been to hell lots of times by now. Satan bores me. He's a horror movie monster and all you have to do is stop being afraid of him and he has no power over you.


And God, in His immaturity and insecurity, has to put up with an immature bet?


Sure. It would amuse me. It will also tell me just how loving God really is. Of course, I also see that Satan has been "demonized" by Christianity moreso than Judaism did, so really, Satan ought to be asking Christianity for forgiveness for bearing false witness.


You didn't mention one? I wouldn't have brought it up had you not...


Well, Revelation puts THAT theory to rest, with billions of people dying because apparently Jesus' salvation move didn't take.


Don't know it.


But the point is apparently Satan was rebelling against real or perceived sins committed in heaven, and that information can affect sentencing, for God sees what is in the heart, does He not?


But it's depressing to think God runs the Universe in ways far dumber than any human system.


I mean, I'm not going to take it seriously either, but we all must remember that Jews thought Jesus was but one of many religious scams too.


Per Jesus, those who call others fools are going to hell, so while Jesus is there, he can meet up with the author of that verse.


Sorry. Still looking for proof he was there, like "Satan wz here" graffiti in the garden or something.


I'm writing a book, Testaments of El (working title). El is upset His kids, including Baal and Yahweh, etc, have screwed things up, and it's been angering all the other gods across the globe, because deities were supposed to accept just their jurisdictions but Yahweh and Baal wanted to run the entire planet, so the apocalypse stops being about humans and will be something like Ragnarok. However, Satan has been trying to protect God and help Him fix things so that war will be unnecessary (since now it matters as it affects gods, not just humans), but there is another war brewing as "tricksters" (shape-shifting entities who like to stick it to the Man, so to speak) are tired of gods' racist attitudes towards them, so they ask Satan to participate ...

Anyway, that's as far as I am right now ... need divine inspiration.

It's not a purification ritual, the removal of psychopathic genes is necessary. If you don't have the ability to have compassion for others you won't be allowed into the higher levels of the universe. The beings there won't have it. That would be like having a neandertal in your home who grunts and urinates on your floor.

The Book of Revelation puts Jesus idea of forgiveness to the test? John doesn't make universal policy. No human does. John didn't know enough about how the universe works to comprehend what he saw in his dream.

Billions of people are going to die no matter what anyone does, most of them are going to go one at a time. Jesus didn't grant humans immortality because that would stop their ascension to heaven.

Satan and Lucifer are different beings. Lucifer was an administrator. Satan was an assistant to Lucifer. Lucifer was not rebelling against God, he didn't believe God existed. He was rebelling against Jesus authority to run the universe.

God does not run the universe in ways far dumber than any human system. God fragmented into life to give it life. What remains in heaven is a being but its more like a computer system that does what it is programmed to do. God will not intervene in any universal affairs other than doing the things that only He can do. Now, the angels do make mistakes. I could post a lot more about their mistakes but it would be way too long.

 

[Kenny]

God does not run the universe in ways far dumber than any human system. God fragmented into life to give it life. What remains in heaven is a being but its more like a computer system that does what it is programmed to do. God will not intervene in any universal affairs other than doing the things that only He can do. Now, the angels do make mistakes. I could post a lot more about their mistakes but it would be way too long.

Of course, , as a Christian I would completely disagree with almost all of these points.

We just have a different story. (Not saying you can't have yours)

 

[Ingledsva]

If you understand who Lucifer is aka as Satan, Adversary etc. as revealed in the biblical scriptures you would know why his fate is sealed.

No, you need to reread this thread.

There is no Lucifer. That was a later misunderstanding by Christians, and a mistranslation.

Isaiah is lamenting the fall of a glorious Babylon and her King.

There is no proof of Satan being an evil autonomous being in Tanakh.

LATER people decided he was the serpent in the Garden, - however - if you actually read that story - "it" is turned into a real snake to slither on it's belly forever.

Is your Satan a real snake that slithers on the ground tasting the air?

Gen 3:14 And the YHVH Elohiym said unto the serpent: 'Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou from among all cattle, and from among all beasts of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.

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